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ocho
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 Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | Magic declared Ingram untouchable, it remains so until proven otherwise. |
Six months ago, Magic declared our entire collection of young talent was untouchable. And then he traded Dangelo Russell.
Who will be untouchable by July 2018? I wouldn't pretend to know. |
Magic never declared our entire collection of young talent untouchable, no need to make things up to fit your narrative it defeats the purpose. |
Except he did.
http://www.ocregister.com/2017/02/22/lakers-young-core-comforted-by-magic-johnson-calling-them-untouchable/ |
If New Orleans came calling for Ingram does anyone think we would say no? There are very few truly untouchable players in the league.
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LakerSD
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| AFireInside619 wrote: | Wow, this thread... 
I'm sure this wasn't what OP intended. |
This thread has the "upside" to hit 80+ pages  |
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70sdude
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | Magic declared Ingram untouchable, it remains so until proven otherwise. |
Six months ago, Magic declared our entire collection of young talent was untouchable. And then he traded Dangelo Russell.
Who will be untouchable by July 2018? I wouldn't pretend to know. |
Magic never declared our entire collection of young talent untouchable, no need to make things up to fit your narrative it defeats the purpose. |
Except he did.
http://www.ocregister.com/2017/02/22/lakers-young-core-comforted-by-magic-johnson-calling-them-untouchable/ |
All things change. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:51 am Post subject: |
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I think the 3 players we hold onto unless an unbelievable offer comes are Lonzo, Ingram, and Kuz.
I think the Lakers would trade any of the following: Jules, JC, Hart, Nance, Zub, Bryant.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| Andre2K wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | ocho wrote: |
If we get Lebron and George, let's just say I think Lebron will be about as interested in Brandon's development as he was in Andrew Wiggins'. |
Lebron doesnt dictate the terms on the Lakers, Magic does. |
Yeah, but Lebron dictates the terms of what a team needs to do to sign him. And I think if Lebron would only sign if Ingram was traded for someone who provided an immediate impact, Magic would do it. He's hungry for superstars.
That said, whether Lebron would want Ingram traded depends heavily on his progress this year. |
Magic declared Ingram untouchable, it remains so until proven otherwise. |
Six months ago, Magic declared our entire collection of young talent was untouchable. And then he traded Dangelo Russell.
Who will be untouchable by July 2018? I wouldn't pretend to know. |
Magic never declared our entire collection of young talent untouchable, no need to make things up to fit your narrative it defeats the purpose. |
Hunter beat me to posting one of the many links to the stories in February where magic said the young core untouchable.
I'm from a different era when it comes to facts. Before I cite a fact, or a stat, or a quote, I actually look it up to make sure it's accurate.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.ocregister.com/2017/02/22/lakers-young-core-comforted-by-magic-johnson-calling-them-untouchable/amp/
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70sdude
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | mookielala wrote: | | If Ingram isn't athletic, I guess I just don't understand athletic. He has more physical gifts than anyone on this team. |
Ingram has outstanding size and length, but what athletic quality of his would you describe as elite? Does he have elite speed? Elite hops? You can be a big fan of his and still acknowledge his flaws. The league is filled with great players who arent great athletes, so I don't know why it is a crime against humanity to point out that he's not cut from that cloth. If he's going to be so incredible in transition this season why was he so awful in transition last season? I get wanting him to be a star but you guys are banking on staggering improvement in several areas of the game that he was straight up bad at last year. He's going to get better, but the question is how much and how soon? If we land 2 max FAs the timeline gets moved up real fast. |
I'll be yer huckleberry. From what I've seem he has (for a tall forward) elite speed running, elite quickness getting off the ground, and elite body control (balance) running at full speed. It's rare stuff. Whether he can apply these abilities in an elite sense game time, well, we'll have to watch for a while longer to know.
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ocho
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| 70sdude wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | mookielala wrote: | | If Ingram isn't athletic, I guess I just don't understand athletic. He has more physical gifts than anyone on this team. |
Ingram has outstanding size and length, but what athletic quality of his would you describe as elite? Does he have elite speed? Elite hops? You can be a big fan of his and still acknowledge his flaws. The league is filled with great players who arent great athletes, so I don't know why it is a crime against humanity to point out that he's not cut from that cloth. If he's going to be so incredible in transition this season why was he so awful in transition last season? I get wanting him to be a star but you guys are banking on staggering improvement in several areas of the game that he was straight up bad at last year. He's going to get better, but the question is how much and how soon? If we land 2 max FAs the timeline gets moved up real fast. |
I'll be yer huckleberry. From what I've seem he has (for a tall forward) elite speed running, elite quickness getting off the ground, and elite body control (balance) running at full speed. It's rare stuff. Whether he can apply these abilities |
I respectfully disagree, as would most people outside of this forum.
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70sdude
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | mookielala wrote: | | If Ingram isn't athletic, I guess I just don't understand athletic. He has more physical gifts than anyone on this team. |
Ingram has outstanding size and length, but what athletic quality of his would you describe as elite? Does he have elite speed? Elite hops? You can be a big fan of his and still acknowledge his flaws. The league is filled with great players who arent great athletes, so I don't know why it is a crime against humanity to point out that he's not cut from that cloth. If he's going to be so incredible in transition this season why was he so awful in transition last season? I get wanting him to be a star but you guys are banking on staggering improvement in several areas of the game that he was straight up bad at last year. He's going to get better, but the question is how much and how soon? If we land 2 max FAs the timeline gets moved up real fast. |
I'll be yer huckleberry. From what I've seem he has (for a tall forward) elite speed running, elite quickness getting off the ground, and elite body control (balance) running at full speed. It's rare stuff. Whether he can apply these abilities |
I respectfully disagree, as would most people outside of this forum. |
I respectfully disagree that you have any idea what most people think. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | Magic declared Ingram untouchable, it remains so until proven otherwise. |
Six months ago, Magic declared our entire collection of young talent was untouchable. And then he traded Dangelo Russell.
Who will be untouchable by July 2018? I wouldn't pretend to know. |
Magic never declared our entire collection of young talent untouchable, no need to make things up to fit your narrative it defeats the purpose. |
Except he did.
http://www.ocregister.com/2017/02/22/lakers-young-core-comforted-by-magic-johnson-calling-them-untouchable/ |
If New Orleans came calling for Ingram does anyone think we would say no? There are very few truly untouchable players in the league. |
I don't think anyone is ever truly untouchable, no matter what anyone says. However, Magic really did say that.
| Quote: | | “That’s good to hear, honestly,” second-year guard D’Angelo Russell said. “With everybody getting traded and everything happening, you’re walking around looking over your shoulder because you don’t have a clue what’s going on. Some things you can’t control. So that’s good to hear.” |
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ocho
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| 70sdude wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | mookielala wrote: | | If Ingram isn't athletic, I guess I just don't understand athletic. He has more physical gifts than anyone on this team. |
Ingram has outstanding size and length, but what athletic quality of his would you describe as elite? Does he have elite speed? Elite hops? You can be a big fan of his and still acknowledge his flaws. The league is filled with great players who arent great athletes, so I don't know why it is a crime against humanity to point out that he's not cut from that cloth. If he's going to be so incredible in transition this season why was he so awful in transition last season? I get wanting him to be a star but you guys are banking on staggering improvement in several areas of the game that he was straight up bad at last year. He's going to get better, but the question is how much and how soon? If we land 2 max FAs the timeline gets moved up real fast. |
I'll be yer huckleberry. From what I've seem he has (for a tall forward) elite speed running, elite quickness getting off the ground, and elite body control (balance) running at full speed. It's rare stuff. Whether he can apply these abilities |
I respectfully disagree, as would most people outside of this forum. |
I respectfully disagree that you have any idea what most people think. |
Ok. Uncle. He's a super duper athlete. A real freak. 
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justsomelakerfan
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:27 am Post subject: |
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OK ranking Lakers' assets on a subjective basis (so not thinking how the league might view them, how I view them)
Tier 1a (The Chosen One):
Lonzo.
Tier 1b (Practically Untouchable)
Tier 2 (Premium Value)
Ingram - I think he has potential to be really good, not too sure about him as an elite scorer, more as a do-it-all versatile forward like a Middleton/better Middleton type of player. However there's so much room to grow that he has a ton of value that exceeds his current production. I'm less low on him than I was.
Tier 3 (Talented but Tradeable)
Kuzma - potential to be serviceable to pretty damn good, perfect NBA skills for a modern stretch 4 and definitely needs development
Nance - positive team impact player who helps win games on a cheap deal for a while
KCP - 3&D wing who could be a great trade asset at the deadline depending on the type of season he has this year
BLO - what I said about KCP but for a center lol, but also way better, just on a one-year deal all the same.
Tier 4 (Good rotation players vs Projects, Trade fodder)
Randle - MORE TALENTED/PROVEN than some guys ahead of him, but may be less tradeable if he's up for an extension without having the kind of team impact that makes him a valuable trade asset like Nance. Hope that makes sense. Whoever trades for him has to bet on what kind of season he'll have, since they need to make a tough decision on what to pay him.
JC - 6th man potential to inefficient bench guy who's been paid.
Zubac - bad summer league so value dipped at least a little, but only 20 and has room to grow, skills look outdated for modern NBA
Bryant, Hart - will be starting in the G-League most likely this year, Hart will get more minutes as season goes along
Tier 5 (Nuclear Waste)
Brewer, someone check Deng's pulse
if Russell was on team he'd be Tier 1b or 2 |
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justsomelakerfan
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | romeo wrote: | | u guys are pretty hard on the kid, he barely got drafted last year. he also adjusted his jumper this summer so hopefully he shoots better in the reg season. and other than ben simmons, who is a better prospect? brown, chriss, brogdon, maker, hield, murray? id rather have ingram who is still just 19yo, picture him w/ 4 years of nba experience |
Can't speak for anyone else but I'm really not being hard on him. I like him and I like his talent. I haven't inflated him into something he isn't though. If the 2018 plan doesn't happen I think he will be with us a long time. If it does happen, I think theres a good chance he gets moved. |
Zero chance he gets moved. Magic already declared him untouchable. |
If we get Lebron and George, let's just say I think Lebron will be about as interested in Brandon's development as he was in Andrew Wiggins'. |
True. I also think they'd possibly hold Lonzo's development in a similar regard. If George and/or Lebron actually join next offseason... Not sure either of our top prospects will stay on the Lakers if they don't have absolutely breakout years this season, and even then it's not a guarantee. The moment even Paul George joins the Lakers, this becomes a win-now team. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:37 am Post subject: |
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If you're Lebron, would you join the Lakers or 76ers? (apparently he's buddies with Ben Simmons).
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justsomelakerfan
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | If you're Lebron, would you join the Lakers or 76ers? (apparently he's buddies with Ben Simmons). |
From a purely basketball & assets perspective, 76ers. They have, despite his injury history, the most proven young player out of both teams in Embiid, and two prospects who project to be some of the top young players in the league as well (who also have very high trade value who could easily yield an All Star return per player, likely higher value than Ingram's). |
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ocho
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| justsomelakerfan wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | romeo wrote: | | u guys are pretty hard on the kid, he barely got drafted last year. he also adjusted his jumper this summer so hopefully he shoots better in the reg season. and other than ben simmons, who is a better prospect? brown, chriss, brogdon, maker, hield, murray? id rather have ingram who is still just 19yo, picture him w/ 4 years of nba experience |
Can't speak for anyone else but I'm really not being hard on him. I like him and I like his talent. I haven't inflated him into something he isn't though. If the 2018 plan doesn't happen I think he will be with us a long time. If it does happen, I think theres a good chance he gets moved. |
Zero chance he gets moved. Magic already declared him untouchable. |
If we get Lebron and George, let's just say I think Lebron will be about as interested in Brandon's development as he was in Andrew Wiggins'. |
True. I also think they'd possibly hold Lonzo's development in a similar regard. If George and/or Lebron actually join next offseason... Not sure either of our top prospects will stay on the Lakers if they don't have absolutely breakout years this season, and even then it's not a guarantee. The moment even Paul George joins the Lakers, this becomes a win-now team. |
Difference is I think Lonzo fits perfectly with those guys, wont be concerned with taking shots from them, and will get them easy looks all game. LeBron+George+Ingram is a clumsy fit. Don't see how he helps those guys. He would have next year to prove he can be a knock down shooter. If he can do that it's not a conversation.
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LakerSanity
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | mookielala wrote: | | If Ingram isn't athletic, I guess I just don't understand athletic. He has more physical gifts than anyone on this team. |
Ingram has outstanding size and length, but what athletic quality of his would you describe as elite? |
Elite size and length can't be dismissed as a given when talking about athleticism. I'd rather have someone with elite length than elite hops or even elite lateral quickness because that length is going to be used more consistently in both making shots and contesting shots than hops would, making no mention of how that wingspan can be used in guarding on the perimeter. Still, Ingram has elite athleticism in other areas anyway.
| Quote: | | Does he have elite speed? |
Yes, for his size. He is actually deceptively quick because while it doesn't look like he's moving that fast, he actually is due to his long strides. It's not about how quickly his feet move going from one end to the court to the other, but rather have much ground he covers and how quickly going from one end to the other. Because his strides are so long, he actually does cover a lot of ground rather quickly. If you're wondering whether he can run in the open court, of course he can. You already saw a number of examples of him being just as good playing in the open court with ball as anyone in that first game against the Clippers where, by the way, Ball wasn't even at his best as it was his first game. If Kuzma can be a good outlet scorer, Ingram can be Kuzma on steroids in that regard.
For his size, yes actually. I forgot what his vertical was, but he's actually a fantastic leaper, as we saw last year when he started posterizing players. Remember, we're talking about a guy who is 6'10.
| Quote: | | You can be a big fan of his and still acknowledge his flaws. The league is filled with great players who arent great athletes, so I don't know why it is a crime against humanity to point out that he's not cut from that cloth. |
I would hope no one is criticizing you simply because you are being critical. However, at the same time, the narrative that Ingram isn't an above average or even elite athlete for his size/height is just wrong IMO. One of the things which makes him so special is how quick and athletic he is at his length/size. Its exactly that which, despite the piss poor start to his rookie season, most believed he still had superstar potential. Point being, if not for his elite athleticism for his length/size, you wouldn't have so many people sticking with him because, otherwise, they would have nothing left to go on since, obviously, the results weren't there in the beginning.
| Quote: | | If he's going to be so incredible in transition this season why was he so awful in transition last season? |
He wasn't. He was a poor shooter and a poor finisher for most of the season, but its not like he couldn't get out and run. Those are two different things (although they may all be part of the definition of "transition," so it depends on what you mean by that). I'd also argue that for most of the season his biggest issue wasn't athleticism, but it was strength. In the NBA, regardless of how quick you are, if you lack strength, you can be bumped off your stride or jump. For most of the season, that's what happened with Ingram. It wasn't that he couldn't get past people, it was that as soon as he did, he'd face some physical contact and lose his momentum. He mitigated that to a decent extent toward the end of the season, which is why we suddenly saw him getting to the basket with more frequency, but the problem was still there.
One of the things that was so encouraging about that summer league game is because it clearly looked like Ingram's body, while still not where you want it to be from a strength standpoint, had solidified and grown stronger. He absorbed contact (and even searched it out) in a way he couldn't during his rookie campaign. That should translate to the regular season.
Point being is that Ingram was inhibited in showing off his elite athleticism (quickness and leaping ability for his size) because of being overwhelmed by stronger players who prevented him from using it. That should be less and less of the case moving forward as he gets stronger. And, as we've seen, once he gets passed you, with his long strides and lengthy arms, you're not blocking his shot.
Now, none of the above has to do with his shooting (unless maybe he lacked strength in his core/lower half to get the right legs into his shot). Still, I think we'll see improvements in his shot this year and, even if he isn't necessarily a "knock down" shooter, if he improves at least decently in his 3pt shot, that's enough for him for now given everything else he brings. You do want him to keep improving on that and eventually get to Kawhi/Durant %s ideally if he can. He doesn't need to do that to become an elite player, but it would certainly make a huge difference and make his odds at becoming a superstar that much greater if he can.
| Quote: | | I get wanting him to be a star but you guys are banking on staggering improvement in several areas of the game that he was straight up bad at last year. He's going to get better, but the question is how much and how soon? If we land 2 max FAs the timeline gets moved up real fast. |
The timeline is going to be moved up that fast. However, I think we'll already see great strides from him this year. He's going to be asked to show it this season. And, if he does show at least some of it and decent (even if not necessarily mindblowing) improvement from last year, which is possible, that should be enough. I don't think the Lakers throw away the future for 2-3 years of Lebron just because Lebron asks. A 34 year old Lebron isn't in a position to make the demands he did when he told the Cavs to trade Wiggins for Love when he was 30 years old.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:58 am Post subject: |
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Ingram
Randle
Nance
Clarkson
Zubac
Guys who haven't played in the NBA.
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LakerSanity
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | Ingram
Randle
Nance
Clarkson
Zubac
Guys who haven't played in the NBA. |
Yea, right now I'd rank Ingram as our best prospect if only because Ball hasn't played in the NBA yet. However, with that caveat in mind, if we see Ball's play in the summer league translate well over the course of the first month or so of the regular season, then, yea, Ball becomes Ingram's equal as a prospect if not his superior.
I think we have two guys - Ball and Ingram - who both have not just all-star potential but superstar potential. Pretty amazing. And, on top of that, Randle still has all-star potential. Really a make it or break it year for him this season.
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ocho
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:07 am Post subject: |
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Here's a highlight reel from Brandon's summer league game. It's sorta what I'm talking about.
http://www.nba.com/video/2017/07/07/20170707-lal-brandon-ingram-sl-hl
It's a 1 game sample, and it's the first game, so I won't take too much away from it, but he mostly got his points from holding the ball in the half court and taking his guy one on one. Theres nothing wrong with being this type of player. It's just a question of whether it's ideal for Ball, though he did have a catch and shoot 3 here. Contrast that to the way Kuzma played.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:08 am Post subject: |
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Things will likely change by mid season but for now, it is hard to rate guys who haven't played.
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ocho
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | He wasn't. He was a poor shooter and a poor finisher for most of the season, but its not like he couldn't get out and run |
Look at Brandon's transition numbers. Not just bad. Really bad.
LS- as to the rest of it, I appreciate the response but I just disagree. I think people are mezmerized by his length. If everything has to be couched in "for his size/for his length" it's sort of making my point. He's not a bad athlete, but he's not an exceptional one.
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LakerSanity
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | Quote: | | He wasn't. He was a poor shooter and a poor finisher for most of the season, but its not like he couldn't get out and run |
Look at Brandon's transition numbers. Not just bad. Really bad.
LS- as to the rest of it, I appreciate the response but I just disagree. I think people are mezmerized by his length. If everything has to be couched in "for his size/for his length" it's sort of making my point. He's not a bad athlete, but he's not an exceptional one. |
I agree he wasn't a good finisher for most of the year last year (whether in transition or otherwise) and won't repeat the reasons why. Still, I think that's different than saying he can't get out and run, nor be able to finish in transition in the future. Even though it was Ball's worst game, I still saw a number of examples of Ingram's ability to utilize Ball in the open court in that Clippers game. There are a few examples of that in GT's video - https://vimeo.com/226048912
I think the larger argument you've made which I am trying to address is whether Ball and Ingram are a fit. IMO, there is no reason to believe they can't mesh and, if anything, because of Ball's limitations as a scorer in the half court (for now), Ingram should be able to provide him some relief in that way.
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ocho
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I think the larger argument you've made which I am trying to address is whether Ball and Ingram are a fit. IMO, there is no reason to believe they can't mesh and, if anything, because of Ball's limitations as a scorer in the half court (for now), Ingram should be able to provide him some relief in that way. |
Maybe they fit great, as I said before. My point was I don't think it's a natural fit. Kuzma was born to play with Lonzo. I don't think the same can be said for Brandon, which doesn't mean it can't be successful.
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oldschool32
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | Here's a highlight reel from Brandon's summer league game. It's sorta what I'm talking about.
http://www.nba.com/video/2017/07/07/20170707-lal-brandon-ingram-sl-hl
It's a 1 game sample, and it's the first game, so I won't take too much away from it, but he mostly got his points from holding the ball in the half court and taking his guy one on one. Theres nothing wrong with being this type of player. It's just a question of whether it's ideal for Ball, though he did have a catch and shoot 3 here. Contrast that to the way Kuzma played. |
You can't give the ball to Kuzma and say "go get me a bucket", I don't think that's the type of player he is destined to be. Brandon has the capability of being that type of player, which is extremely valuable in the nba. I don't think he will hold the ball as long as he did in summer league during the regular season. I think he realized his 2nd summer league was about dominating the competition and letting everyone know that he was worth being the #2 pick. Same as Russell did last summer. Brandon showed last year that he is an extremely willing and high iq passer, so I think he fits right in. Now if he doesn't improve on his shooting, then all of this means nothing. He needs to hit at least 35-36%(prime) on 3's to be able to fulfill his potential on offense imo. I think that takes a few years though.
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"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up."-The Greatest |
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JuliusRandall
Sixth Man
Joined: 08 Apr 2016
Posts: 65
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:50 am Post subject: |
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This is about ranking assets right? Not current player performance.
If that is the case our three most valuable assets are by far the Lonzo Contract and the one year deals on Brook Lopez and KCP. And it is not even close to anything else.
By asset I am using the financial markets meaning.
1) Lonzo after summer league is probably one of the three most valuable assets under 22 years alongside the Greek Freak and KAT, and it is not even close to any other asset on these conditions.
2) The expiring contracts are worth 42,7 MM and with most teams going over the cap they become extremely valuable.
So those are the assets we hold that people would pay more for right now, would potentially generate more returns in a trade. and two out of the three most valuable types in the league.
The third type of asset, which we do not currently have is a Superstar tied in a long term contract, Harden and Curry type assets.
So I think management is doing great and I am not implying Lonzo is better than Ingram, I am just saying his perceived value by the league is much higher. |
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