CA community colleges considering abolishing algebra requirement
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DuncanIdaho
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:32 pm    Post subject: CA community colleges considering abolishing algebra requirement

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Say Goodbye To X+Y: Should Community Colleges Abolish Algebra?

Algebra is one of the biggest hurdles to getting a high school or college degree — particularly for students of color and first-generation undergrads.

It is also the single most failed course in community colleges across the country. So if you're not a STEM major (science, technology, engineering, math), why even study algebra?

That's the argument Eloy Ortiz Oakley, chancellor of the California community college system, made today in an interview with NPR's Robert Siegel.

At American community colleges, 60 percent of those enrolled are required to take at least one math course. Most — nearly 80 percent — never complete that requirement

[...]

You are facing pressure to increase graduation rates — only 48 percent graduate from California community colleges with an associate's degree or transfer to a four-year institution within six years. As we've said, passing college algebra is a major barrier to graduation. But is this the easy way out? Just strike the algebra requirement to increase graduation rates instead of teaching math more effectively?

I hear that a lot and unfortunately nothing could be farther from the truth. Somewhere along the lines, since the 1950s, we decided that the only measure of a student's ability to reason or to do some sort of quantitative measure is algebra. What we're saying is we want as rigorous a course as possible to determine a student's ability to succeed, but it should be relevant to their course of study. There are other math courses that we could introduce that tell us a lot more about our students.

[...]

Bob Moses , the civil rights activist, started the Algebra Project, teaching concepts of algebra to black students in the South. He saw the teaching of math as a continuation of the civil rights struggle.

Rates of failure in algebra are higher for minority groups than they are for white students. Why do you think that is? Do you think a different curriculum would have less disparate results by ethnic or racial group?


First of all, we've seen in the data from many of the pilots across the country that are using alternative math pathways — that are just as rigorous as an algebra course — we've seen much greater success for students because many of these students can relate to these different kinds of math depending on which program of study they're in. They can see how it works in their daily life and how it's going to work in their career.

The second thing I'd say is yes, this is a civil rights issue, but this is also something that plagues all Americans — particularly low-income Americans. If you think about all the underemployed or unemployed Americans in this country who cannot connect to a job in this economy — which is unforgiving of those students who don't have a credential — the biggest barrier for them is this algebra requirement. It's what has kept them from achieving a credential.

http://www.npr.org/2017/07/19/538092649/say-goodbye-to-x-y-should-community-colleges-abolish-algebra


Might as well just concede the century to China.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:33 pm    Post subject: Re: CA community colleges considering abolishing algebra requirement

DuncanIdaho wrote:
Quote:
Say Goodbye To X+Y: Should Community Colleges Abolish Algebra?

Algebra is one of the biggest hurdles to getting a high school or college degree — particularly for students of color and first-generation undergrads.

It is also the single most failed course in community colleges across the country. So if you're not a STEM major (science, technology, engineering, math), why even study algebra?

That's the argument Eloy Ortiz Oakley, chancellor of the California community college system, made today in an interview with NPR's Robert Siegel.

At American community colleges, 60 percent of those enrolled are required to take at least one math course. Most — nearly 80 percent — never complete that requirement

[...]

You are facing pressure to increase graduation rates — only 48 percent graduate from California community colleges with an associate's degree or transfer to a four-year institution within six years. As we've said, passing college algebra is a major barrier to graduation. But is this the easy way out? Just strike the algebra requirement to increase graduation rates instead of teaching math more effectively?

I hear that a lot and unfortunately nothing could be farther from the truth. Somewhere along the lines, since the 1950s, we decided that the only measure of a student's ability to reason or to do some sort of quantitative measure is algebra. What we're saying is we want as rigorous a course as possible to determine a student's ability to succeed, but it should be relevant to their course of study. There are other math courses that we could introduce that tell us a lot more about our students.

[...]

Bob Moses , the civil rights activist, started the Algebra Project, teaching concepts of algebra to black students in the South. He saw the teaching of math as a continuation of the civil rights struggle.

Rates of failure in algebra are higher for minority groups than they are for white students. Why do you think that is? Do you think a different curriculum would have less disparate results by ethnic or racial group?


First of all, we've seen in the data from many of the pilots across the country that are using alternative math pathways — that are just as rigorous as an algebra course — we've seen much greater success for students because many of these students can relate to these different kinds of math depending on which program of study they're in. They can see how it works in their daily life and how it's going to work in their career.

The second thing I'd say is yes, this is a civil rights issue, but this is also something that plagues all Americans — particularly low-income Americans. If you think about all the underemployed or unemployed Americans in this country who cannot connect to a job in this economy — which is unforgiving of those students who don't have a credential — the biggest barrier for them is this algebra requirement. It's what has kept them from achieving a credential.

http://www.npr.org/2017/07/19/538092649/say-goodbye-to-x-y-should-community-colleges-abolish-algebra


Might as well just concede the century to China.


Pretty sure we already did.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:49 pm    Post subject:

What we need is better STEM curriculums in elementary schools.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:50 pm    Post subject:

I don't see algebra as a necessity, but then what kind of jobs are associate degree grads taking in the workplace? My only concern is the utter confusion it may cause kids who wish to use a JC as a springboard into a four year college. I would imagine the vast majority of four year colleges will require algebra, and if you didn't take it in JC, you'll either not be admitted from JC, or you'll be forced to take it in a more competitive environment at the four year college.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:53 pm    Post subject:

It could be worse, evolution has been taken out of all Turkish textbooks.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:13 pm    Post subject:

Not a huge problem IMO. Anyone transferring to a university will still have to take it in undergrad.

Besides, you don't need algebra to strip the threads off of my oil pan bolt or put a Piolin bumper sticker on your accord.
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Location: So what's the uh...topic of discussion?

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:34 pm    Post subject:

http://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-essential-education-updates-southern-drop-algebra-requirement-for-non-stem-1500563132-htmlstory.html

Quote:
Chancellor Eloy Ortiz Oakley told The Times that intermediate algebra is seen as a major barrier for students of color


math is racist now
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:38 pm    Post subject:

That's sad.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:50 pm    Post subject:

Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
http://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-essential-education-updates-southern-drop-algebra-requirement-for-non-stem-1500563132-htmlstory.html

Quote:
Chancellor Eloy Ortiz Oakley told The Times that intermediate algebra is seen as a major barrier for students of color


math is racist now


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: CA community colleges considering abolishing algebra requirement

DuncanIdaho wrote:
Quote:
Say Goodbye To X+Y: Should Community Colleges Abolish Algebra?

Algebra is one of the biggest hurdles to getting a high school or college degree — particularly for students of color and first-generation undergrads.

It is also the single most failed course in community colleges across the country. So if you're not a STEM major (science, technology, engineering, math), why even study algebra?

That's the argument Eloy Ortiz Oakley, chancellor of the California community college system, made today in an interview with NPR's Robert Siegel.

At American community colleges, 60 percent of those enrolled are required to take at least one math course. Most — nearly 80 percent — never complete that requirement

[...]

You are facing pressure to increase graduation rates — only 48 percent graduate from California community colleges with an associate's degree or transfer to a four-year institution within six years. As we've said, passing college algebra is a major barrier to graduation. But is this the easy way out? Just strike the algebra requirement to increase graduation rates instead of teaching math more effectively?

I hear that a lot and unfortunately nothing could be farther from the truth. Somewhere along the lines, since the 1950s, we decided that the only measure of a student's ability to reason or to do some sort of quantitative measure is algebra. What we're saying is we want as rigorous a course as possible to determine a student's ability to succeed, but it should be relevant to their course of study. There are other math courses that we could introduce that tell us a lot more about our students.

[...]

Bob Moses , the civil rights activist, started the Algebra Project, teaching concepts of algebra to black students in the South. He saw the teaching of math as a continuation of the civil rights struggle.

Rates of failure in algebra are higher for minority groups than they are for white students. Why do you think that is? Do you think a different curriculum would have less disparate results by ethnic or racial group?


First of all, we've seen in the data from many of the pilots across the country that are using alternative math pathways — that are just as rigorous as an algebra course — we've seen much greater success for students because many of these students can relate to these different kinds of math depending on which program of study they're in. They can see how it works in their daily life and how it's going to work in their career.

The second thing I'd say is yes, this is a civil rights issue, but this is also something that plagues all Americans — particularly low-income Americans. If you think about all the underemployed or unemployed Americans in this country who cannot connect to a job in this economy — which is unforgiving of those students who don't have a credential — the biggest barrier for them is this algebra requirement. It's what has kept them from achieving a credential.

http://www.npr.org/2017/07/19/538092649/say-goodbye-to-x-y-should-community-colleges-abolish-algebra


Might as well just concede the century to China.


Do you really think the people who were struggling with algebra in community college were going to make a difference when it comes to competing with China? I don't really see how it makes a difference.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:37 pm    Post subject:

I like to think that there is a value to learning things that stimulate logic building just for the sake of brain development, even at a college age. And we are talking intro algebra... its not like its advanced calculus.
If community colleges want to retain what little reputation they have they shouldnt lower the bar to help people who cant pass algebra.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:38 pm    Post subject: Re: CA community colleges considering abolishing algebra requirement

tox wrote:


Do you really think the people who were struggling with algebra in community college were going to make a difference when it comes to competing with China? I don't really see how it makes a difference.


Seriously. Most of the ones who will go into STEM careers will be up to Trigonometry or Calculus by the time they start college.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject:

Stand and Deliver?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:11 pm    Post subject:

JohnWick wrote:
What we need is better STEM curriculums in elementary schools.


I agree.

I taught remedial math courses at Community Colleges for 2 years and by and large, the students who struggle at math struggle because they lack number sense and basic problem solving skills.

Warning: REALLY Long Rant Ahead

This is why, in my humble opinion, people need to stop complaining about Common Core, at least for now.

People don't like Common Core because it makes math in the early grades more complicated. Parents get frustrated because they can no longer help their kids with their homework because they don't understand how to present the solution in the way the Common Core curriculum requests. From that perspective, I understand the frustration.

What people don't consider is that Common Core was never meant to be a quick fix. It never claimed that it would provide immediate improvement, especially in the early grades. It's a long term process.

The motivation for the Common Core strategy comes from the fact that our high school and college students are struggling more and more with math.

What happens is that when you teach math in grade school using the "traditional methods", students are taught to solve problems using mindless rote algorithms. The students are able to provide the correct answer, but over the years as they continue to learn math this way, they lose grasp of what they are actually doing and why they are doing it.

So when a problem involving a given concept is presented in a different way (As a basic example, when a student is given X and Z and is asked to solve for Y instead of being given X and Y and asked to compute Z like they are trained to robotically), their brain shuts off and gives up. And then the "well, the teacher never taught us how to do this!!!!" complaints start mounting and the parents, who in this generation are WAY more likely to believe their students then the teachers, start complaining to the teachers and all hell breaks loose. It's a vicious cycle of awfulness.

The Common Core methods are designed to develop number sense and problem solving skills at an earlier age so that these problems are mitigated as much as possible at higher levels. This is ever so important because at higher levels, problems naturally become more open ended and are less likely to be identical to another problem. Hence, rote learning becomes obsolete and more of a barrier than anything else.

To demonstrate what I mean better, I'll provide a real-life example.

Back in grad school, I tutored math at the campus tutoring center. I'd say about 80% - 90% of the students who came in for math help were taking Calculus in some capacity, whether it was Calc I, Calc II, Calc III, Business Calc, or Calc for Life Sciences.

There was one student taking Business Calc who came in for help. She was learning optimization. The problem we were going over asked her to compute the dimensions of a cardboard box that would give the maximum volume given a constraint that it's surface area had to be a certain, fixed number.

She flat out asked me to write down a list of steps to follow every time that she could use to solve every single optimization problem known to mankind ever so that she could memorize them and think as little as humanly possible.

Those of you have taken Calculus and remember the optimization problems know that no 2 problems are alike. One problem may ask you to maximize the volume of a box. Another may ask you to maximize profit. Another may ask you to minimize perimeter. The contexts are completely different and so the equations and the set-up of those equations will always be different given the context. Trying to follow one unified grand list of steps is impractical, if not, impossible.

This student is the canonical example of what happens when you train students to do math like robots from an early age.

Common Core's purpose is to prevent this from happening. That being said, there will be growing pains. And an unfortunate consequence is that, yes, grade school math will probably be harder for our children then it was for us. But the goal is that the new approach will pay off in the long run.

All that being said, before people start pissing and moaning about how much Common Core sucks, let's wait 10 or 15 years. Let's see how our Kindergartners and 1st graders today do in their math courses in high school and college before we judge.

Maybe Common Core won't work. Maybe there is a better solution out there. But I would argue that it can't be much worse than the traditional way and that it's worth a try.

End of Really Long Rant
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:37 pm    Post subject:

Meanwhile, countries like China continue to pull ahead of us in technical education.The education system in the US is failing at the grassroots level and it has consequences all the way up to the Universities.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:50 pm    Post subject:

Does an art major need to know how to solve the quadratic equation?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:59 pm    Post subject:

Hell, my 5 year high school career (i was a huge F up, big time smoker and other things) can get a B in Alegbra anyone want. I would have had an A, but i struggle with Word problems because im Dyslexic.

With how poor teachers get paid, we just have to get teachers that actually love teaching. I think thats why i was decent in Math, i had a great math Teacher. He was cool and explained things very well.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:00 pm    Post subject:

my state of Hawaii requires pre-algebra by the 6th grade for school districts in Honolulu. Not sure about the other counties in Oahu or the other islands. In the 7th grade we were already taking algebra then geometry in the 8th grade. But there was another option: Business & General Statistics Math.

The first option for those considering wanting to study engineering, science or the medical fields in college. The second one for everyday practical use regarding how to balance a checkbook or statistics. The HS districts here then "flips" that by offering similar courses but in reverse. Meaning, students who took algebra and geometry in the 7th and 8th grades have the option to take Business/Statistics in the 9th or 10th grade if desired. The Business/Stats students from 7th-8th can continue this or take algebra 1 in the 9th grade.

not sure what they're doing over there but perhaps CA school administrators should consider something of this curriculum to cover the needs of those who aren't serious about wanting to be a doctor or engineer after high school.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:19 pm    Post subject:

Just give everyone a participation diploma and call it a day.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:26 pm    Post subject:

8Five8Seven wrote:
my state of Hawaii requires pre-algebra by the 6th grade for school districts in Honolulu. Not sure about the other counties in Oahu or the other islands. In the 7th grade we were already taking algebra then geometry in the 8th grade. But there was another option: Business & General Statistics Math.

The first option for those considering wanting to study engineering, science or the medical fields in college. The second one for everyday practical use regarding how to balance a checkbook or statistics. The HS districts here then "flips" that by offering similar courses but in reverse. Meaning, students who took algebra and geometry in the 7th and 8th grades have the option to take Business/Statistics in the 9th or 10th grade if desired. The Business/Stats students from 7th-8th can continue this or take algebra 1 in the 9th grade.

not sure what they're doing over there but perhaps CA school administrators should consider something of this curriculum to cover the needs of those who aren't serious about wanting to be a doctor or engineer after high school.


I went thru the CA public school system and I took algebra in 7th grade also.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:56 pm    Post subject:

Ultimately, you reap what you sow. Most degrees that are worth a darn as far as future employment will have some amount of rigour involved. People just want the easy way out...If you do, then God bless - maybe you'll even be lucky. But for the most part, don't expect the kind of jobs/salaries afforded to top professionals, who worked hard to get there.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:48 am    Post subject:

My opinion is that the problem is not at college level, it's just a manifestation of the failure of early education.
Is this problem unique to US?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:13 am    Post subject:

Shouldn't a student already have taken, and passed, basic algebra by the time they get to college?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:10 am    Post subject:

1. It's community college in CA, which probably means that there are no entrance requirements, such as a GED or HS diploma.

2. If the JC grad is aiming for a good four-year college, his chances are diminished if he took bunny courses. Even if the applicant gained admission, the college will likely require at least one or two math classes, and they may not allow the transfer credits for community college algebra anyway.

3. This isn't a new problem for public education in CA. I'd estimate that between 75% to 80% of the students in my senior class never took algebra. In fact, many of them couldn't read without sounding out a word, one syllable at a time. At the risk of sounding parochial, I think reading deficiency should take priority.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:02 am    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
I don't see algebra as a necessity, but then what kind of jobs are associate degree grads taking in the workplace? My only concern is the utter confusion it may cause kids who wish to use a JC as a springboard into a four year college. I would imagine the vast majority of four year colleges will require algebra, and if you didn't take it in JC, you'll either not be admitted from JC, or you'll be forced to take it in a more competitive environment at the four year college.


they have a couple of these articles pop up in the past 2 weeks. And its not just JC's having this discussion its also the Cal state system talking about it as well in regards to CERTAIN majors.


The truth is, we have a ton of data nowadays or we have many ways to start collecting a ton of data to see if just taking these courses does us enough good to make them warranted.

This idea of "well I did it and I'm smarter for it. so we should keep doing it" isnt enough. thats like talking tot he nba guys that couldnt stand the analytics guys coming in. when in reality both sides need to get together, capture the data and break it down. then make an educated decision. not a feelings decision.

with all that said. Talking math/Logic. there is a point where learning certain types of math/logic can make you a more LOGICAL THINKER. you can do a better job of seeing the abstract and making logical sense of it.

you can use something in place of something in order for you to understand something else. thats in essence algebra.

But you guys have to realize. most people are not taught it in that manner. They are taught to memorize a few things and to get by on that. if you see this looking equation, then use this looking formula. then you will get this answer. if by chance you run up on these kids with real life world problems that are not setup perfectly to match the setups they were taught. they would not be able to solve said problems. thats because they do not KNOW algreba/logic. They have memorized a few things and thats about it.

and i'm not sure if this article in the OP's post shows that they were also talking about perhaps moving some of the non algreba folks into Statistics. Right now. we are a world of STATs. i think everyone needs to be at least pretty decent with statistics. and that is currently not the case. not even some who have passed a 2nd level of calculus. Again they may know how to get an answer based on how a problem looks. but they wont know which equation to use in which statistical situation.

but in the end. truth is, you can not have kids take algebra and if you choose to teach them about Stats you will in essence end up teaching some form of algebra. If you get deep into stats you will have to teach them calculus. its just a matter of how to approach it. the old way? or go with something more real world centric. I'm down for the latter personally.
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