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activeverb
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:04 am Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:

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The main reason for the disparities: defense. To illustrate the point, we can specify the on-/off-court comparisons, as CBS Sports’ Matt More did on Twitter. Over the past three seasons, the Cavs are plus-10.1 points per 100 possessions when James, Irving and Tristan Thompson are in the game. When Irving sits, but James and Thompson play, Cleveland is plus-8.3. But the way they achieve those similar marks is very different. The threesome that includes Irving scores a whopping 117.2 points per 100 possessions; that rate falls to 111.0 per 100 without Irving. But the with-Irving groups allow opponents to score 107.1 points per 100 trips, while the without-Irving groups are more stingy at 102.7 per 100 possessions.

Irving just isn’t a good on-ball defender, nor is his off-ball ability anything to write home about. His effort oscillates between uninterested and energy-conserving, and his alertness is unreliable. He’s been a minus defender in each of his six NBA seasons, his defensive box plus-minus ranging from -0.9 (2013-14) to -2.3 (2016-17).

This is the primary reason I prefer Gasol over Irving. Irving is flashy and fun to watch. He can put up big scoring games, and he's hit big shot. He's the type of player who gets fan's adrenaline going. If we were picking all-highlight reel, he's an excellent choice.

But he gives a lot back on the defensive end. That isn't fun. That doesn't make anyone high five. Lots of people don't even notice.

Gasol, in contrast, doesn't cause anyone to get all hot and bothered. Sometimes you barely notice he's on the court. But overall, his impact is higher, even if that impact doesn't make the highlight reels much.

Aeneas Hunter
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:06 am Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:

Would you put Kyrie above or below John Wall, and by how much?

I'm not a big John Wall fan. I'd take him over Irving, but not by much.

yinoma2001
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:15 am Post subject:

activeverb wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

I would take prime Gasol over prime Irving too.
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Aeneas Hunter
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:24 am Post subject:

activeverb wrote:

After coming off his finals heroics and having his best regular season ever, Kyrie finished #8 in voting among guards for the all-NBA team (tied with Klay Thompson).

That's #8 just among guards. He came in #25 in vote totals for all positions.

While that is by no means a perfect measure of a player's standing, it sure tells you something.

Irving is what he is: A flashy player capable of having some huge scoring games as a second banana, but with a lot of limitations to his game.

Here are a couple different ways to process this, depending on how you like to think about basketball:

1. Last year, the Cavs had Lebron James, one of the greatest players of all time and still an MVP candidate. Irving was the #2 option. Whatever you think of Kevin Love, he had a pretty good year. Yet the Cavs finished with a record of 51-31 in the 2016-2017 Eastern Conference. What's wrong with this picture? If Kyrie Irving is really everything that he is supposed to be, how the heck did the Cavs do so poorly?

You've probably heard that the Cavs didn't win a game when Lebron was out. It's not shocking that the Cavs struggled with Lebron. Most teams will struggle without their best player. But in fact the Cavs got blown out in some of those games. If Irving is really all that, shouldn't they have won at least one of those games?

2. Or we can look at it statistically. Here are the RPM numbers for the big three in Cleveland -- Offensive, Defensive, and Total:

Lebron: 6.49 1.93 8.42 (#1 overall)

Love: 2.77 2.66 5.03 (#12 overall, between Durant and Harden)

Irving: 4.35 -2.30 2.05 (#53 overall, between David West and Hassan Whiteside)

If you don't like stats, that's cool. But these sorts of numbers should make you stop and think about it. Is Irving's reputation deserved, or is it the product of playing on a superteam with Lebron?

activeverb
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:51 am Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:

Is Irving's reputation deserved, or is it the product of playing on a superteam with Lebron?

To me, it's a product of being on a superteam which positioned him for attention getting moments, like the 40-point game and the game 7 shot.

You see that stuff and think, "Wow, this guy is great." And those big moments cover up all the deficiencies.

I do feel sorry for any team that trades for Kyrie Irving to be their #1 guy.

yinoma2001
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:09 pm Post subject:

activeverb wrote:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:

Is Irving's reputation deserved, or is it the product of playing on a superteam with Lebron?

Agreed. He isn't leading your team to the playoffs as the #1 guy. It's a very Knicks thing to do to replace Melo with Kyrie.
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:04 pm Post subject:

activeverb wrote:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:

Is Irving's reputation deserved, or is it the product of playing on a superteam with Lebron?

They should also take note of his passive-aggressive ability when he wants to use it. He's supposedly incognito with Cavs FO right now. Not that I don't enjoy this, but Gilbert is in a bad spot. Kyrie is only going to hurt his own trade value the longer they hold onto him. Sure, Gilbert is whistling past the graveyard with the 2 years left on his contract, but he doesn't exactly give Kyrie much hope that he'll be able to undo all the koncaks he handed out to appease Bron which Kyrie is now expected to carry on his back. How could they possibly convince him that they're on the right track after Gil let the favored GM go? That's the kind of thing that galls me no end. Gilbert whines about the Lakers having an unfair advantage and then he makes mistakes that ponderous when left to his own devices. He's a lightweight.
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governator
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:30 am Post subject:

Sounds similar to the days of Shaq-Kobe feud, I remember people downplaying Kobe's contributions. 'Volume shooters', 'Shaq can do it with any other wings', 'what's the W-L record of Kobe without Shaq and vice versa'. Irving undoubtedly not in same level as LBJ, Shaq or Kobe but he drop 27ppg with title clinching shot in '16 finals and drop 29ppg in '17 finals... uncle drew is legit good

yinoma2001
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:43 am Post subject:

governator wrote:

Sounds similar to the days of Shaq-Kobe feud, I remember people downplaying Kobe's contributions. 'Volume shooters', 'Shaq can do it with any other wings', 'what's the W-L record of Kobe without Shaq and vice versa'. Irving undoubtedly not in same level as LBJ, Shaq or Kobe but he drop 27ppg with title clinching shot in '16 finals and drop 29ppg in '17 finals... uncle drew is legit good

No disputing he's great in the Finals. It's just that he coasts off of Lebron during the regular season. He's not good enough to be the guy who leads a team into the playoffs as a 1st option.
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governator
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:43 am Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:

governator wrote:

No disputing he's great in the Finals. It's just that he coasts off of Lebron during the regular season. He's not good enough to be the guy who leads a team into the playoffs as a 1st option.

Sounds just like Kobe's criticism back in the day doesn't it?

jodeke
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:58 am Post subject:

Wherever LeBron goes two things follow (1) Championships (2) Controversy Los Angles get ready for the 2 C's Do it Magic _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.

governator
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:22 pm Post subject:

jodeke wrote:

Wherever LeBron goes two things follow

(1) Championships
(2) Controversy

Los Angles get ready for the 2 C's

Do it Magic

(3) Courtney Kardashian

activeverb
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:40 pm Post subject:

governator wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

governator wrote:

No disputing he's great in the Finals. It's just that he coasts off of Lebron during the regular season. He's not good enough to be the guy who leads a team into the playoffs as a 1st option.

Sounds just like Kobe's criticism back in the day doesn't it?

I can't see equating Irving now with Kobe back then. Even during the three peat Kobe was getting MVP votes. Irving isn't even making 3rd team all-nba.

I don't see that Irving right now is regarded with anywhere near the status Kobe had back then, so the comparison Falls flat for me.

USCandLakers
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:44 pm Post subject:

governator wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

governator wrote:

No disputing he's great in the Finals. It's just that he coasts off of Lebron during the regular season. He's not good enough to be the guy who leads a team into the playoffs as a 1st option.

Sounds just like Kobe's criticism back in the day doesn't it?

Exactly like it. The disrespect he's receiving right now is exactly why he wants out. You simply don't get credit when playing next to LeBron. After all he's done for that team...he apparently wouldn't even be able to lead his own team to the playoffs. I mean, come on.
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:47 pm Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:

CandyCanes wrote:

Would you put Kyrie above or below John Wall, and by how much?

If you had to pick one to lead your team, Wall hands down.

Kyrie has already shown us he's incapable of being the man on a playoff bound team.

As a #2 option behind LBJ, Irving.

How's that?

You can't possibly be talking about his first 3 seasons in the league. Neither Wall nor Steph lead their teams to the playoffs in their first 3 seasons, and they were playing with much better talent. So if LeBron hijacked the Warriors after Steph's 3rd season, you'd be saying the same thing about Steph?

Mind you, you're the same guy that just spent the last year screaming that point guards(over other positions) take years to get accustomed to league and learn the position, yet here you are, in another discussion, having what can only be described as ridiculously unrealistic expectations for a 20-22 year old point guard.
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:59 pm Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:

activeverb wrote:

Here are a couple different ways to process this, depending on how you like to think about basketball:

1. Last year, the Cavs had Lebron James, one of the greatest players of all time and still an MVP candidate. Irving was the #2 option. Whatever you think of Kevin Love, he had a pretty good year. Yet the Cavs finished with a record of [b]51-31 in the 2016-2017 Eastern Conference. What's wrong with this picture? If Kyrie Irving is really everything that he is supposed to be, how the heck did the Cavs do so poorly?[/b]

You've probably heard that the Cavs didn't win a game when Lebron was out. It's not shocking that the Cavs struggled with Lebron. Most teams will struggle without their best player. But in fact the Cavs got blown out in some of those games. If Irving is really all that, shouldn't they have won at least one of those games?

2. Or we can look at it statistically. Here are the RPM numbers for the big three in Cleveland -- Offensive, Defensive, and Total:

Lebron: 6.49 1.93 8.42 (#1 overall)

Love: 2.77 2.66 5.03 (#12 overall, between Durant and Harden)

Irving: 4.35 -2.30 2.05 (#53 overall, between David West and Hassan Whiteside)

If you don't like stats, that's cool. But these sorts of numbers should make you stop and think about it. Is Irving's reputation deserved, or is it the product of playing on a superteam with Lebron?

Perhaps if LeBron didn't coast during the regular season?

Cleveland was ranked 3rd in offense and 22nd in defense. If you're looking for a reason for why they only won 51 games, you don't have to look very hard.
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Aeneas Hunter
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:43 pm Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:

Here are a couple different ways to process this, depending on how you like to think about basketball:

1. Last year, the Cavs had Lebron James, one of the greatest players of all time and still an MVP candidate. Irving was the #2 option. Whatever you think of Kevin Love, he had a pretty good year. Yet the Cavs finished with a record of [b]51-31 in the 2016-2017 Eastern Conference. What's wrong with this picture? If Kyrie Irving is really everything that he is supposed to be, how the heck did the Cavs do so poorly?[/b]

You've probably heard that the Cavs didn't win a game when Lebron was out. It's not shocking that the Cavs struggled with Lebron. Most teams will struggle without their best player. But in fact the Cavs got blown out in some of those games. If Irving is really all that, shouldn't they have won at least one of those games?

2. Or we can look at it statistically. Here are the RPM numbers for the big three in Cleveland -- Offensive, Defensive, and Total:

Lebron: 6.49 1.93 8.42 (#1 overall)

Love: 2.77 2.66 5.03 (#12 overall, between Durant and Harden)

Irving: 4.35 -2.30 2.05 (#53 overall, between David West and Hassan Whiteside)

If you don't like stats, that's cool. But these sorts of numbers should make you stop and think about it. Is Irving's reputation deserved, or is it the product of playing on a superteam with Lebron?

That theory withers in light of the stats in #2. Who's the defensive liability on that team?

Last edited by Aeneas Hunter on Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

Aeneas Hunter
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:47 pm Post subject:

governator wrote:

But that's the point, isn't it? He's a #2 who wants to be a #1. I don't blame him for being ambitious, but I feel sorry for any team that overpays for him. He isn't a superstar. That's where the comparison with Kobe breaks down.

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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:01 pm Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:

governator wrote:

You have to be on those players' levels to be a #1? You know who else isn't on their levels? Curry, Dirk and Kawhi Leonard. Guess who was the best player on the Warriors, Mavs and Spurs when they won titles?

For the sake of winning the argument, you're taking the comparison at too literal of a level. I think it's pretty damn obvious the point of the comparison.
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:05 pm Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:

USCandLakers wrote:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:

Here are a couple different ways to process this, depending on how you like to think about basketball:

1. Last year, the Cavs had Lebron James, one of the greatest players of all time and still an MVP candidate. Irving was the #2 option. Whatever you think of Kevin Love, he had a pretty good year. Yet the Cavs finished with a record of [b]51-31 in the 2016-2017 Eastern Conference. What's wrong with this picture? If Kyrie Irving is really everything that he is supposed to be, how the heck did the Cavs do so poorly?[/b]

You've probably heard that the Cavs didn't win a game when Lebron was out. It's not shocking that the Cavs struggled with Lebron. Most teams will struggle without their best player. But in fact the Cavs got blown out in some of those games. If Irving is really all that, shouldn't they have won at least one of those games?

2. Or we can look at it statistically. Here are the RPM numbers for the big three in Cleveland -- Offensive, Defensive, and Total:

Lebron: 6.49 1.93 8.42 (#1 overall)

Love: 2.77 2.66 5.03 (#12 overall, between Durant and Harden)

Irving: 4.35 -2.30 2.05 (#53 overall, between David West and Hassan Whiteside)

If you don't like stats, that's cool. But these sorts of numbers should make you stop and think about it. Is Irving's reputation deserved, or is it the product of playing on a superteam with Lebron?

That theory withers in light of the stats in #2. Who's the defensive liability on that team?

The team as a whole was bad defensively. Not just one player. That was the point. They were top ranked offensively, and horrid defensively. That's why they only won 51 games. I don't see how that proves anything about Irving, though.
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:31 pm Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:

governator wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

governator wrote:

No disputing he's great in the Finals. It's just that he coasts off of Lebron during the regular season. He's not good enough to be the guy who leads a team into the playoffs as a 1st option.

Sounds just like Kobe's criticism back in the day doesn't it?

LeBron had two ships before he went back to Cleveland. How far did Kyrie take them before he came back?
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:46 pm Post subject:

jodeke wrote:

USCandLakers wrote:

governator wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

governator wrote:

No disputing he's great in the Finals. It's just that he coasts off of Lebron during the regular season. He's not good enough to be the guy who leads a team into the playoffs as a 1st option.

Sounds just like Kobe's criticism back in the day doesn't it?

LeBron had two ships before he went back to Cleveland. How far did Kyrie take them before he came back?

Kyrie was only coming off his 3rd season. You expect 3rd year players to lead their teams to the playoffs with a rookie Dion Waiters as the second best player?

What was Steph Curry doing in his 3rd season?
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:55 pm Post subject:

You replace Tony Parker with Kyrie Irving on the 12-13 Spurs and what happens? _________________ A banana is killed every time a terrible thread or post is made. Save the bananas. Stop creating terrible posts!

defense
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:03 pm Post subject:

Do I think hes capable of being a guy you build a winner around? YES Do I think hes a guy you can build a championship around? most likely no But then they said that about Curry...

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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:09 pm Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:

activeverb wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

I would take prime Gasol over prime Irving too.

The same prime Gasol that was getting pushed around by smaller players on a routine basis? The same Pau that needed Bynum to play just so Perkins couldn't guard him? Who was it on the Rockets that was pushing this man out of the paint at 5 inches shorter height? I forgot his name. I hate to break down Pau, but when you're comparing two great players...

Kyrie would have destroyed that Celtics team in 08 playing next to Kobe. Kobe was all by himself. I'm just salivating at the thought of prime Kobe and Kyrie playing next to each other. I'm honestly quite shocked anyone would take Gasol over Kyrie. We're talking about one of the best playoff performers in the past decade plus.
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