Kyrie Irving wants to be traded.
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:02 pm    Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:
What was Steph Curry doing in his 3rd season?



Mostly, he was dealing with ankle problems and recovering from surgery.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:23 pm    Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
governator wrote:
Sounds similar to the days of Shaq-Kobe feud, I remember people downplaying Kobe's contributions. 'Volume shooters', 'Shaq can do it with any other wings', 'what's the W-L record of Kobe without Shaq and vice versa'. Irving undoubtedly not in same level as LBJ, Shaq or Kobe but he drop 27ppg with title clinching shot in '16 finals and drop 29ppg in '17 finals... uncle drew is legit good


But that's the point, isn't it? He's a #2 who wants to be a #1. I don't blame him for being ambitious, but I feel sorry for any team that overpays for him. He isn't a superstar. That's where the comparison with Kobe breaks down.


You have to be on those players' levels to be a #1? You know who else isn't on their levels? Curry, Dirk and Kawhi Leonard. Guess who was the best player on the Warriors, Mavs and Spurs when they won titles? .



I wouldn't put Irving on the level of a prime Curry, Dirk or Leonard either.

In his first 6 years, Irving has never received a single MVP vote and he's only made one third all-NBA team.

In their first 6 years, Curry won an MVP award; Dirk made four all-NBA teams; and Kwahi won two DPoY, made two all-NBA 1st teams, and finished 2nd and 3rd in MVP voting.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:48 pm    Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
governator wrote:
Sounds similar to the days of Shaq-Kobe feud, I remember people downplaying Kobe's contributions. 'Volume shooters', 'Shaq can do it with any other wings', 'what's the W-L record of Kobe without Shaq and vice versa'. Irving undoubtedly not in same level as LBJ, Shaq or Kobe but he drop 27ppg with title clinching shot in '16 finals and drop 29ppg in '17 finals... uncle drew is legit good


But that's the point, isn't it? He's a #2 who wants to be a #1. I don't blame him for being ambitious, but I feel sorry for any team that overpays for him. He isn't a superstar. That's where the comparison with Kobe breaks down.


You have to be on those players' levels to be a #1? You know who else isn't on their levels? Curry, Dirk and Kawhi Leonard. Guess who was the best player on the Warriors, Mavs and Spurs when they won titles?

For the sake of winning the argument, you're taking the comparison at too literal of a level. I think it's pretty damn obvious the point of the comparison.


Irving isn't on the level of Curry, Dirk, and Kawhi Leonard, either. Curry and Dirk won MVPs. Leonard has finished second and third in the voting.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:
The team as a whole was bad defensively. Not just one player. That was the point. They were top ranked offensively, and horrid defensively. That's why they only won 51 games. I don't see how that proves anything about Irving, though.


So why were they a bad defensive team? That's the point of the RPM stat. The only player on the Cavs with a lower DRPM was Kyle Korver. Irving ranked 440th in the league out of 468. Admittedly, that's a little unfair, because DRPM is not good for comparing players in different positions. Still, among PGs, he was 68th out of 79. He wasn't as much of a train wreck as Isaiah Thomas, but you could probably guess most of the other PGs who ranked worse than him. It's the guys who are known for matador defense. Zach Lavine, check. Jordan Clarkson, check. D.J. Augustin, check.

So you're telling me that the Cavs vastly underachieved because of their defense, but you don't see how this has anything to with Irving?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:08 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
I wouldn't put Irving on the level of a prime Curry, Dirk or Leonard either.

In his first 6 years, Irving has never received a single MVP vote and he's only made one third all-NBA team.

In their first 6 years, Curry won an MVP award; Dirk made four all-NBA teams; and Kwahi won two DPoY, made two all-NBA 1st teams, and finished 2nd and 3rd in MVP voting.


You beat me to it. I just don't see the elite comparisons coming from USC. I can see the Tony Parker comparison, but Tony Parker wasn't the best player on his team.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:13 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
What was Steph Curry doing in his 3rd season?



Mostly, he was dealing with ankle problems and recovering from surgery.


Mostly he was not leading his team to the playoffs, was the right answer.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:20 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
governator wrote:
Sounds similar to the days of Shaq-Kobe feud, I remember people downplaying Kobe's contributions. 'Volume shooters', 'Shaq can do it with any other wings', 'what's the W-L record of Kobe without Shaq and vice versa'. Irving undoubtedly not in same level as LBJ, Shaq or Kobe but he drop 27ppg with title clinching shot in '16 finals and drop 29ppg in '17 finals... uncle drew is legit good


But that's the point, isn't it? He's a #2 who wants to be a #1. I don't blame him for being ambitious, but I feel sorry for any team that overpays for him. He isn't a superstar. That's where the comparison with Kobe breaks down.


You have to be on those players' levels to be a #1? You know who else isn't on their levels? Curry, Dirk and Kawhi Leonard. Guess who was the best player on the Warriors, Mavs and Spurs when they won titles? .



I wouldn't put Irving on the level of a prime Curry, Dirk or Leonard either.

In his first 6 years, Irving has never received a single MVP vote and he's only made one third all-NBA team.

In their first 6 years, Curry won an MVP award; Dirk made four all-NBA teams; and Kwahi won two DPoY, made two all-NBA 1st teams, and finished 2nd and 3rd in MVP voting.


Irving sure looked prime Curry level in the 2016 Finals.

Or do you think any of those players would be their "prime" selves playing next to LeBron? Wade, Love and Bosh suddenly stopped looking like their prime selves playing 2nd and 3rd fiddle to LeBron. If Wade had gone his entire career as LeBron's second option, we would have never known that he was good enough to lead his own team to a championship. "Oh he needs LeBron to win. He's just an ISO player. Can't hit 3s. Can't lead a team on his own."

It's the LeBron effect. He receives the all the benefits of playing next to star players(in numbers and in accolades) while said star players' numbers drops and they receive none of the credit.

Curry won MVP as 1st option. Kawhi had a pretty damn good Finals when he won FMVP, but funny enough, Kyrie had a better Finals. Interesting how you list the accolades of Curry, Dirk and Kawhi, but fail to mention that in his first 6 years, Irving has averaged 27 and 29 ppg in the Finals, has more 40 point Finals games than Kobe Bryant, and hit the freaking game winner that beat a 70 win team and won his team a championship.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:24 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
The team as a whole was bad defensively. Not just one player. That was the point. They were top ranked offensively, and horrid defensively. That's why they only won 51 games. I don't see how that proves anything about Irving, though.


So why were they a bad defensive team? That's the point of the RPM stat. The only player on the Cavs with a lower DRPM was Kyle Korver. Irving ranked 440th in the league out of 468. Admittedly, that's a little unfair, because DRPM is not good for comparing players in different positions. Still, among PGs, he was 68th out of 79. He wasn't as much of a train wreck as Isaiah Thomas, but you could probably guess most of the other PGs who ranked worse than him. It's the guys who are known for matador defense. Zach Lavine, check. Jordan Clarkson, check. D.J. Augustin, check.

So you're telling me that the Cavs vastly underachieved because of their defense, but you don't see how this has anything to with Irving?


They were 9th in defense last season. So you're telling me they went from 9th to 22nd because of Irving?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:54 pm    Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:
Curry won MVP as 1st option. Kawhi had a pretty damn good Finals when he won FMVP, but funny enough, Kyrie had a better Finals. Interesting how you list the accolades of Curry, Dirk and Kawhi, but fail to mention that in his first 6 years, Irving has averaged 27 and 29 ppg in the Finals, has more 40 point Finals games than Kobe Bryant, and hit the freaking game winner that beat a 70 win team and won his team a championship.



Irving had a great finals. Zero disagreement about that. However if that is the end-all and be-all of your argument for him, as it seems to be, it falls flat for me. It's certainly a point in his favor, but it's not the trump card you seem to think it is.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:03 pm    Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Would you put Kyrie above or below John Wall, and by how much?


If you had to pick one to lead your team, Wall hands down.

Kyrie has already shown us he's incapable of being the man on a playoff bound team.

As a #2 option behind LBJ, Irving.


How's that?

You can't possibly be talking about his first 3 seasons in the league. Neither Wall nor Steph lead their teams to the playoffs in their first 3 seasons, and they were playing with much better talent. So if LeBron hijacked the Warriors after Steph's 3rd season, you'd be saying the same thing about Steph?

Mind you, you're the same guy that just spent the last year screaming that point guards(over other positions) take years to get accustomed to league and learn the position, yet here you are, in another discussion, having what can only be described as ridiculously unrealistic expectations for a 20-22 year old point guard.


He is not leading a team. He's perfect as a 2nd option. You ask him to carry a team and I guarantee you he folds. He better be careful what he asks for. He will regret the aegis that Lebron put him under bc his lack of defense and consistency will be exposed.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:08 pm    Post subject:

Anyone know the Cavs record when Lebron was of and it was kyrie led with KLove?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:13 pm    Post subject:

Found this article.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/12/one-stat-that-shows-how-terrible-the-cavs-are-without-lebron-james
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:33 pm    Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:
It's the LeBron effect. He receives the all the benefits of playing next to star players(in numbers and in accolades) while said star players' numbers drops and they receive none of the credit.


*screeeeeech* Oh, never mind, I get it. This is about Lebron bashing, not about the actual merits of Kyrie Irving.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:35 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
He is not leading a team. He's perfect as a 2nd option. You ask him to carry a team and I guarantee you he folds. He better be careful what he asks for. He will regret the aegis that Lebron put him under bc his lack of defense and consistency will be exposed.


I tend to agree, but (1) I don't blame the guy for having the ambition to prove that he can be a legitimate #1, and (2) I definitely can't blame him for getting tired of being a pawn on Lebron's chessboard. The latter is why I am not thrilled with the idea of Lebron coming here next year.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:38 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Found this article.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/12/one-stat-that-shows-how-terrible-the-cavs-are-without-lebron-james


Back in the day, there were stats like that about Snaq and Kobe. If your best player is out, you are usually going to lose. By itself, that doesn't tell us much about Kobe or Irving.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:49 pm    Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:
activeverb wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
governator wrote:
Sounds similar to the days of Shaq-Kobe feud, I remember people downplaying Kobe's contributions. 'Volume shooters', 'Shaq can do it with any other wings', 'what's the W-L record of Kobe without Shaq and vice versa'. Irving undoubtedly not in same level as LBJ, Shaq or Kobe but he drop 27ppg with title clinching shot in '16 finals and drop 29ppg in '17 finals... uncle drew is legit good


But that's the point, isn't it? He's a #2 who wants to be a #1. I don't blame him for being ambitious, but I feel sorry for any team that overpays for him. He isn't a superstar. That's where the comparison with Kobe breaks down.


You have to be on those players' levels to be a #1? You know who else isn't on their levels? Curry, Dirk and Kawhi Leonard. Guess who was the best player on the Warriors, Mavs and Spurs when they won titles? .



I wouldn't put Irving on the level of a prime Curry, Dirk or Leonard either.

In his first 6 years, Irving has never received a single MVP vote and he's only made one third all-NBA team.

In their first 6 years, Curry won an MVP award; Dirk made four all-NBA teams; and Kwahi won two DPoY, made two all-NBA 1st teams, and finished 2nd and 3rd in MVP voting.


Irving sure looked prime Curry level in the 2016 Finals.

Or do you think any of those players would be their "prime" selves playing next to LeBron? Wade, Love and Bosh suddenly stopped looking like their prime selves playing 2nd and 3rd fiddle to LeBron. If Wade had gone his entire career as LeBron's second option, we would have never known that he was good enough to lead his own team to a championship. "Oh he needs LeBron to win. He's just an ISO player. Can't hit 3s. Can't lead a team on his own."

It's the LeBron effect. He receives the all the benefits of playing next to star players(in numbers and in accolades) while said star players' numbers drops and they receive none of the credit.

Curry won MVP as 1st option. Kawhi had a pretty damn good Finals when he won FMVP, but funny enough, Kyrie had a better Finals. Interesting how you list the accolades of Curry, Dirk and Kawhi, but fail to mention that in his first 6 years, Irving has averaged 27 and 29 ppg in the Finals, has more 40 point Finals games than Kobe Bryant, and hit the freaking game winner that beat a 70 win team and won his team a championship.


Thats the crux of the reason why he wants out. Can't blame him for wanting to be his own man. Even if that means stepping out from the superteam that he was part of.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:57 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Found this article.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/12/one-stat-that-shows-how-terrible-the-cavs-are-without-lebron-james


Back in the day, there were stats like that about Snaq and Kobe. If your best player is out, you are usually going to lose. By itself, that doesn't tell us much about Kobe or Irving.


Sure but what other stats are reliable? When lbj was out and love and et al were still playing the Cavs looked pedestrian. The stats seem to support that FWIW.

as much as lbj imposed himself on iriving he also served as a massive workhorse and has massive coat tails to hang onto.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:02 pm    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
activeverb wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
governator wrote:
Sounds similar to the days of Shaq-Kobe feud, I remember people downplaying Kobe's contributions. 'Volume shooters', 'Shaq can do it with any other wings', 'what's the W-L record of Kobe without Shaq and vice versa'. Irving undoubtedly not in same level as LBJ, Shaq or Kobe but he drop 27ppg with title clinching shot in '16 finals and drop 29ppg in '17 finals... uncle drew is legit good


But that's the point, isn't it? He's a #2 who wants to be a #1. I don't blame him for being ambitious, but I feel sorry for any team that overpays for him. He isn't a superstar. That's where the comparison with Kobe breaks down.


You have to be on those players' levels to be a #1? You know who else isn't on their levels? Curry, Dirk and Kawhi Leonard. Guess who was the best player on the Warriors, Mavs and Spurs when they won titles? .



I wouldn't put Irving on the level of a prime Curry, Dirk or Leonard either.

In his first 6 years, Irving has never received a single MVP vote and he's only made one third all-NBA team.

In their first 6 years, Curry won an MVP award; Dirk made four all-NBA teams; and Kwahi won two DPoY, made two all-NBA 1st teams, and finished 2nd and 3rd in MVP voting.


Irving sure looked prime Curry level in the 2016 Finals.

Or do you think any of those players would be their "prime" selves playing next to LeBron? Wade, Love and Bosh suddenly stopped looking like their prime selves playing 2nd and 3rd fiddle to LeBron. If Wade had gone his entire career as LeBron's second option, we would have never known that he was good enough to lead his own team to a championship. "Oh he needs LeBron to win. He's just an ISO player. Can't hit 3s. Can't lead a team on his own."

It's the LeBron effect. He receives the all the benefits of playing next to star players(in numbers and in accolades) while said star players' numbers drops and they receive none of the credit.

Curry won MVP as 1st option. Kawhi had a pretty damn good Finals when he won FMVP, but funny enough, Kyrie had a better Finals. Interesting how you list the accolades of Curry, Dirk and Kawhi, but fail to mention that in his first 6 years, Irving has averaged 27 and 29 ppg in the Finals, has more 40 point Finals games than Kobe Bryant, and hit the freaking game winner that beat a 70 win team and won his team a championship.


Thats the crux of the reason why he wants out. Can't blame him for wanting to be his own man. Even if that means stepping out from the superteam that he was part of.


Guys whose game is built primarily around scoring often don't like being the #2 guy on ring teams. After they've had some success, they want to step out of the shadows and be the main man, even if that means being the main man on unsuccessful teams.

It's the guys with more all-around games who don't have shoot-first mentalities -- Pippen, Gasol -- who seem to handle being the second banana better.

If you see yourself as a superstar, it's can be tough playing with a GOAT level players unless your games and personalities are completely complementary, like Magic and Kareem.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:10 pm    Post subject:

Just for fun how many games do you guys think golden state with Irving, Thompson, Barnes, green and Bogut win? Do they have a chance to win a championship? I think they might. Don't think they would be as good as with curry but still very good. The number one guy thing is over blown. Even the best players need hall of famers to help them win championships.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:31 pm    Post subject:

defense wrote:
Just for fun how many games do you guys think golden state with Irving, Thompson, Barnes, green and Bogut win? Do they have a chance to win a championship? I think they might.


Woulda coulda shoulda rings are easy to get. You can buy them for a buck at Wal-Mart.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:24 am    Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:

Or do you think any of those players would be their "prime" selves playing next to LeBron? Wade, Love and Bosh suddenly stopped looking like their prime selves playing 2nd and 3rd fiddle to LeBron. If Wade had gone his entire career as LeBron's second option, we would have never known that he was good enough to lead his own team to a championship. "Oh he needs LeBron to win. He's just an ISO player. Can't hit 3s. Can't lead a team on his own."


Yes, we would've known how great Wade was in that situation by looking at his overall game. You could still tell he could get others involved and defend playing next to LeBron. You can still tell Kyrie can't playing next to LeBron. Plenty of historically great players have playing alongside arguable GOAT guys and still shined. Worthy, Pippen, McHale, Manu/Parker, etc.

The main reason I don't think Kyrie will have much success as the primary player is because he isn't that good at getting others involved and is a defensive liability. I think he'd be fine on a super squad that can hide those weaknesses, similar to Curry.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:05 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Found this article.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/12/one-stat-that-shows-how-terrible-the-cavs-are-without-lebron-james


Back in the day, there were stats like that about Snaq and Kobe. If your best player is out, you are usually going to lose. By itself, that doesn't tell us much about Kobe or Irving.


Sure but what other stats are reliable? When lbj was out and love and et al were still playing the Cavs looked pedestrian. The stats seem to support that FWIW.

as much as lbj imposed himself on iriving he also served as a massive workhorse and has massive coat tails to hang onto.


It depends on what you're trying to prove: the importance of Lebron or the relative value of Irving and Love. We can easily establish that Lebron was the most important piece.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:11 am    Post subject:

defense wrote:
Just for fun how many games do you guys think golden state with Irving, Thompson, Barnes, green and Bogut win? Do they have a chance to win a championship? I think they might. Don't think they would be as good as with curry but still very good. The number one guy thing is over blown. Even the best players need hall of famers to help them win championships.


That would be a pretty big drop off. Curry is a better offensive player than Irving and a much, much better defender. This is not to say that Curry is a good defender. He's just not anywhere near as bad as Irving.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:24 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Found this article.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/12/one-stat-that-shows-how-terrible-the-cavs-are-without-lebron-james


Back in the day, there were stats like that about Snaq and Kobe. If your best player is out, you are usually going to lose. By itself, that doesn't tell us much about Kobe or Irving.


Sure but what other stats are reliable? When lbj was out and love and et al were still playing the Cavs looked pedestrian. The stats seem to support that FWIW.

as much as lbj imposed himself on iriving he also served as a massive workhorse and has massive coat tails to hang onto.


It depends on what you're trying to prove: the importance of Lebron or the relative value of Irving and Love. We can easily establish that Lebron was the most important piece.


The team is build to LeBron's strengths just like Early 2000s Lakers was with Shaq. Kobe went 11-19 the year Shaq delayed his surgery, doesn't tell how good Or not good Kobe was
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:25 am    Post subject:

defense wrote:
Do I think hes capable of being a guy you build a winner around? YES

Do I think hes a guy you can build a championship around? most likely no

But then they said that about Curry...


They said things about Lebron. And MJ.

Can't make clutch shots, needs other superstars around him, selfish, etc.

He assembled a team just because he gave up on the challenge of figuring it out how to beat the Celtics with his squad. MJ was in the same position, but after years and years of losing, he stuck to it and they finally beat the Pistons. That's what made him great and similarly Kobe. Kobe beat that Celtics squad. It wasn't just the talent. No matter the challenge and how long it took (injuries or sabbaticals included), they never backed down.

This is why nobody can say much about Dirk. HOF career, doesn't pout and was the leader that got his town the championship. He has the respect of the league, fans and will be forever be the King of Dallas. With just one ring.

If LeBron is considered an "alpha"...
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