Better coach: Phil or Popovich?
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Better coach: Phil or Popovich?
Phil Jackson
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Greg Popovich
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:07 am    Post subject:

Phil is not only the best coach in NBA history, he's the best coach in sports history. Pop is a great coach, but he's no Phil. 13 finals in 20 seasons, just absolutely ridiculous. He never had one of his contending teams lose to an inferior team. Pop has lost in the first round with a 55 win and 61 team. Love Pop, but Phil is just on another level.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:37 am    Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:
Phil is not only the best coach in NBA history, he's the best coach in sports history. Pop is a great coach, but he's no Phil. 13 finals in 20 seasons, just absolutely ridiculous. He never had one of his contending teams lose to an inferior team. Pop has lost in the first round with a 55 win and 61 team. Love Pop, but Phil is just on another level.


What about the 03-04 Pistons?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:24 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
Phil is not only the best coach in NBA history, he's the best coach in sports history. Pop is a great coach, but he's no Phil. 13 finals in 20 seasons, just absolutely ridiculous. He never had one of his contending teams lose to an inferior team. Pop has lost in the first round with a 55 win and 61 team. Love Pop, but Phil is just on another level.


What about the 03-04 Pistons?


The team with arguably the greatest defense of all time? And Malone was injured.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:58 am    Post subject:

If it makes any sense, I have Phil as greater and poppovich as the better coach. There's no doubt Phil had all time talent to work with, but he also was able to keep it going for multiple runs, something unseen since the sixties. Otoh, popovic was willing and able to completely change his system with the times, and varies it year to year.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:13 am    Post subject:

Where does Pat Riley rank among these three?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:46 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
Where does Pat Riley rank among these three?
He does not sit at the same table as Phil or Pop.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:54 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
If it makes any sense, I have Phil as greater and poppovich as the better coach. There's no doubt Phil had all time talent to work with, but he also was able to keep it going for multiple runs, something unseen since the sixties. Otoh, popovic was willing and able to completely change his system with the times, and varies it year to year.


I think that is a fair and accurate assessment.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:24 pm    Post subject:

Vancouver Fan wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Where does Pat Riley rank among these three?
He does not sit at the same table as Phil or Pop.


Why not? Five rings, three time coach of the year.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject:

kobeandgary wrote:
K2 wrote:
For some inexplicable reason, Pop still hasn't been able to guide his team to a single repeat.

2015 Lost 1st Round Clippers
2014 Won Finals

2008 Lost WCF Lakers
2007 Won Finals

2006 Lost 2nd Round Mavericks
2005 Won Finals

2004 Lost 2nd Round Lakers
2003 Won Finals

2000 Lost 1st Round Phoenix Suns
1999 Won Finals * (short season)


He's lost to better teams in my opinion, where when Phil had repeat years it was because he had the better teams and talent.


Haha. A little lopsided there. If Pop loses, it's because the opponent was better. If Phil wins, it's because his team was better.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:51 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
If it makes any sense, I have Phil as greater and poppovich as the better coach. There's no doubt Phil had all time talent to work with, but he also was able to keep it going for multiple runs, something unseen since the sixties. Otoh, popovic was willing and able to completely change his system with the times, and varies it year to year.


Very true, but if I had to pick one of them to coach my team, which I believe is part of this evaluation process, it would be Pop due to his ability to evolve with the game. Phil is trying to put a round peg in a square hole that used to be round.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:36 pm    Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
Phil is not only the best coach in NBA history, he's the best coach in sports history. Pop is a great coach, but he's no Phil. 13 finals in 20 seasons, just absolutely ridiculous. He never had one of his contending teams lose to an inferior team. Pop has lost in the first round with a 55 win and 61 team. Love Pop, but Phil is just on another level.


What about the 03-04 Pistons?


The team with arguably the greatest defense of all time? And Malone was injured.


Not to mention incredible leeway given to them to whack and paw at our players. Would've had a record number of foulouts if the game was called fairly.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Where does Pat Riley rank among these three?
He does not sit at the same table as Phil or Pop.


Why not? Five rings, three time coach of the year.
I just think the body of work that Phil and Pop have is more impressive and they did it in a much longer stretch.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:31 pm    Post subject:

Vancouver Fan wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Where does Pat Riley rank among these three?
He does not sit at the same table as Phil or Pop.


Why not? Five rings, three time coach of the year.
I just think the body of work that Phil and Pop have is more impressive and they did it in a much longer stretch.


All three were the beneficiary of having great talent to work with. But only Pop and PJ were able to prove they could bring more to the table than just winning with great talent.

Not to mention Riles actually single handedly COST his team a "Threepeat" (ironic, since he trademarked the term) with his work in the '89 finals.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:42 am    Post subject:

POP STILL CHUGGING ALONG <<<>>> PHIL GONE FISHING
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:06 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Where does Pat Riley rank among these three?
He does not sit at the same table as Phil or Pop.


Why not? Five rings, three time coach of the year.
I just think the body of work that Phil and Pop have is more impressive and they did it in a much longer stretch.


All three were the beneficiary of having great talent to work with. But only Pop and PJ were able to prove they could bring more to the table than just winning with great talent.

Not to mention Riles actually single handedly COST his team a "Threepeat" (ironic, since he trademarked the term) with his work in the '89 finals.


Weren't Magic Johnson and Byron Scott injured in that series? How did Riley cost them the series?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:17 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Where does Pat Riley rank among these three?
He does not sit at the same table as Phil or Pop.


Why not? Five rings, three time coach of the year.
I just think the body of work that Phil and Pop have is more impressive and they did it in a much longer stretch.


All three were the beneficiary of having great talent to work with. But only Pop and PJ were able to prove they could bring more to the table than just winning with great talent.

Not to mention Riles actually single handedly COST his team a "Threepeat" (ironic, since he trademarked the term) with his work in the '89 finals.


Weren't Magic Johnson and Byron Scott injured in that series? How did Riley cost them the series?


It was Riley's decision to work the team too hard in practice that lead to the injuries.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:52 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
It was Riley's decision to work the team too hard in practice that lead to the injuries.



Excuse me, but one of my pet peeves is when people state their opinion as a fact.

Before the finals, Riley had an intense three-day minicamp, and after Scott and Magic blew out their hamstrings in the finals some people thought it was because of the minicamp. Riley's response was that when he used the minicamp approach before, the Lakers trounced their opponents.

Could hard practices contributed to Magic and Scott's hamstring injuries? Potentially. On the other hand, Riley had lots of hard practices that didn't cause injuries, and lots of players have hamstring injuries that seem to have zero connection to exertion, so who knows?

This will always be one of the unanswered questions.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Better coach: Phil or Popovich?

CandyCanes wrote:
Phil obviously has more than twice as many rings, but after seeing him fail so spectacularly as the Knicks president, I'm starting to buy into the narrative that it was only because he had such legendary players.

Popovich has a much better record of player development.


Pop adapts. He can take a prime Duncan to a title, as well as an old Duncan to a title. PJ is disillusioned enough to think MJ, Pippen, Shaq and Kobe could only win titles through the triangle.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:35 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
It was Riley's decision to work the team too hard in practice that lead to the injuries.



Excuse me, but one of my pet peeves is when people state their opinion as a fact.

Before the finals, Riley had an intense three-day minicamp, and after Scott and Magic blew out their hamstrings in the finals some people thought it was because of the minicamp. Riley's response was that when he used the minicamp approach before, the Lakers trounced their opponents.

Could hard practices contributed to Magic and Scott's hamstring injuries? Potentially. On the other hand, Riley had lots of hard practices that didn't cause injuries, and lots of players have hamstring injuries that seem to have zero connection to exertion, so who knows?

This will always be one of the unanswered questions.


You don't need a grueling mini camp to pull your hamstring at the most inopportune time, just ask Lebron.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Better coach: Phil or Popovich?

Runway8 wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Phil obviously has more than twice as many rings, but after seeing him fail so spectacularly as the Knicks president, I'm starting to buy into the narrative that it was only because he had such legendary players.

Popovich has a much better record of player development.


Pop adapts. He can take a prime Duncan to a title, as well as an old Duncan to a title. PJ is disillusioned enough to think MJ, Pippen, Shaq and Kobe could only win titles through the triangle.


The counterargument is Phil won 11 rings in 20 years so why change what's working?

And I don't know that MJ, Pippen, Kobe and Shaq needed the triangle, but their 21 cumulative rings all came in the triangle (except one for Shaq in Miami)

Pop, for all his adapting, won 5 rings in 20 years.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:47 pm    Post subject:

Both has worked with great players. MJ, Pippen, Rodman, Shaq, Kobe, Pau vs David Robinson, Duncan, Kawhi, Toni Parker, Manu Ginobili.
Phil was able to take multiple different teams, lead by MJ, lead by Shaq, lead by Kobe and installed the triangle into each of those championships teams vs Pop who has adapted his core into different championship team style (although I credit keeping the team core to the GM and not Pop).
Big ding to Pop for never able to defend the title while Phil successfully had multiple three-peats and a repeat. You have the target on your back when you're the champ.

Phil > Pop
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:17 pm    Post subject:

I'd like to see if Popovich could handle personalities like Jordan/Rodman and Shaq/Kobe. Easier said than done. The Spurs tried Rodman when Pop was an assistant and the franchise couldn't deal with him. And Phil had to take over the Bulls without a title under his belt and still manage to get a hard-headed young Mike to play in a very structured system. His light signal was the kind with the oversized green and the small red. Pop's teams have always been put together with a high priority placed on amenable/selfless/humble-mellow personalities. Tim Duncan is the most mellow superstar of his caliber of all time. Let's see him try to convince Shaq to put out for him. Pop had it much easier in that vain. He never had a clash between star players, much less between two of the league's biggest figures. Not saying he COULDN'T do it, but that he never did. Easier said than done. During his entire stay, the Spurs drafted and traded and acquired the most easy-to-handle personalities that were available, whenever possible. You all remember 2000 to 2001. Pop never had that kind of BS as a distraction to overcome.

Beyond that, win in LA. See how different the expectations are for the Lakers and the podunk SA Spurs. San Anton is a small market. Now matter how good they are, there's never the demand by the FO or fans that they absolutely must win the championship or bust. They've blown 65 win seasons and Pop still gets mentioned in the same breath as Phil. Why? Whatever titles Pop wins are considered great achievements while people will always view Phil's as at least partly foregone conclusions because of Jordan/Shaq/Kobe. Phil has "Scoreboard!" head-to-head, too, but that doesn't dissuade these kinds of hypotheticals either. So, Phil has more titles, repeat titles, and head-to-head, but we're still supposed to consider them as comparable entities. We're also crediting Pop for changing with the times while Phil won more titles with the one system and retired before the league fully evolved into what it is today. I'm calling much BS on pretending their situations were similar SOLELY because they both had legit title contending talent. Phil could've done what Pop did in SA, especially if he didn't even ever have to repeat or 3peat. An assorted handful of titles. Could Pop have followed in Phil's shoes in Chicago and LA? All 11 times? Three peats and repeats? Who really buys that?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:14 pm    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
I'd like to see if Popovich could handle personalities like Jordan/Rodman and Shaq/Kobe. Easier said than done. The Spurs tried Rodman when Pop was an assistant and the franchise couldn't deal with him. And Phil had to take over the Bulls without a title under his belt and still manage to get a hard-headed young Mike to play in a very structured system. His light signal was the kind with the oversized green and the small red. Pop's teams have always been put together with a high priority placed on amenable/selfless/humble-mellow personalities. Tim Duncan is the most mellow superstar of his caliber of all time. Let's see him try to convince Shaq to put out for him. Pop had it much easier in that vain. He never had a clash between star players, much less between two of the league's biggest figures. Not saying he COULDN'T do it, but that he never did. Easier said than done. During his entire stay, the Spurs drafted and traded and acquired the most easy-to-handle personalities that were available, whenever possible. You all remember 2000 to 2001. Pop never had that kind of BS as a distraction to overcome.

Beyond that, win in LA. See how different the expectations are for the Lakers and the podunk SA Spurs. San Anton is a small market. Now matter how good they are, there's never the demand by the FO or fans that they absolutely must win the championship or bust. They've blown 65 win seasons and Pop still gets mentioned in the same breath as Phil. Why? Whatever titles Pop wins are considered great achievements while people will always view Phil's as at least partly foregone conclusions because of Jordan/Shaq/Kobe. Phil has "Scoreboard!" head-to-head, too, but that doesn't dissuade these kinds of hypotheticals either. So, Phil has more titles, repeat titles, and head-to-head, but we're still supposed to consider them as comparable entities. We're also crediting Pop for changing with the times while Phil won more titles with the one system and retired before the league fully evolved into what it is today. I'm calling much BS on pretending their situations were similar SOLELY because they both had legit title contending talent. Phil could've done what Pop did in SA, especially if he didn't even ever have to repeat or 3peat. An assorted handful of titles. Could Pop have followed in Phil's shoes in Chicago and LA? All 11 times? Three peats and repeats? Who really buys that?


Word.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:46 pm    Post subject:

rwongega wrote:


Word.


There hasn't been a more definitive word up since Cameo.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:11 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
It was Riley's decision to work the team too hard in practice that lead to the injuries.



Excuse me, but one of my pet peeves is when people state their opinion as a fact.

Before the finals, Riley had an intense three-day minicamp, and after Scott and Magic blew out their hamstrings in the finals some people thought it was because of the minicamp. Riley's response was that when he used the minicamp approach before, the Lakers trounced their opponents.

Could hard practices contributed to Magic and Scott's hamstring injuries? Potentially. On the other hand, Riley had lots of hard practices that didn't cause injuries, and lots of players have hamstring injuries that seem to have zero connection to exertion, so who knows?

This will always be one of the unanswered questions.


Scott was out the whole series. It's a plausible assumption at the very worst. Two hamstring tears just like that? True, nothing's impossible, but that's a very rare injury for two teammates to have in a full season instead of a 2 week span. Riley busted their arses at the end of that RS as well. Chick and Stu were callin him out for bringing Magic and/or Worthy/Scott back in because they lost 12 pts of a 25 pt lead late to the Clippers at home, stuff like that. Ham tears are the kind of thing that you can only see happening with hindsight vision, but even if the camp wasn't the cause, it was tempting fate. They had years of June play and the year before they went 23 gms deep. Coop was busted after that season, despite winning the DPOY the year prior. Completely different player after playing with a bad ankle. In 90, Riley didn't want a repeat of the 57 win 1989 season where they lost a then record 8 straight RS road games (unheard of) and they started to sputter right before the playoffs, got beat by the same PHX team they swept the year before. The criminal thing about 1989 is that they were on point in April onward. Resembled the 2001 team. There wasn't a whole lot wrong with what they were doing to necessitate a grueling mini-camp. Byron has always had a beef about that because he didn't fully recover his spring after that tear. Started wearing those Body Glove thigh wraps for compression the season after the tear. All of 90, he had on and off nights, sometimes from one game to the next. He banged dunks off the front iron, clearly looked pissed while lying on the floor.
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