188 people feared dead Boeing 737 MAX 8 Crashed into sea from Jakarta

 
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ContagiousInspiration
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:40 pm    Post subject: 188 people feared dead Boeing 737 MAX 8 Crashed into sea from Jakarta

RIP

Hopefully not Terrorism.

Quote:


The accident is the first to be reported that involves the widely-sold
Boeing 737 MAX, an updated, more fuel-efficient version of the
manufacturer's workhorse single-aisle jet. The first Boeing 737 MAX
jets were introduced into service in 2017.

https://m.tribuneindia.com/article/plane-with-188-aboard-crashes-in-java-sea-soon-after-take-off-from-jakarta/675507/amp
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ChickenBeckerman
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:09 am    Post subject:

Malaysia and Indonesia seem to have a high number of Airplane tragedies the past several years. Freaks me out because I travel throughout South East Asia alot.

Rip.
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:31 pm    Post subject:

Yeah, this 737 Max 8 was delivered on Aug 2018. It logged approx 800 hours. This plane had trouble in Denpasar already. It flew from Denpasar to Jakarta the previous night and was looked over by engineers. The engineers gave the plane the ok to fly. at 6am, the plane flew to Pangkal Pinang for a 1 hr flight. 10 minutes into the flight, they asked air traffic controller if they can turn back. After that, they lost contact and went down into the ocean.

There's an amazing story to this. One guy survived. He didn't survive the crash, but he failed to board that plane due to being stuck in traffic and arriving to the airport late. He's a government worker. There's about 20 of them that work in Pangkal Pinang but live in Jakarta. Every friday, they fly back to Jakarta and then on Monday morning, they take this same flight to Pangkal Pinang.

This guy, he usually arrives at the airport at 3am for this 6am flight. Somehow this time, he got stuck in traffic so bad he arrived at 6:20am. He had to take a later flight. When he landed at Pangkal Pinang, that's when he learned of the crash. He immediately called his mother and family who were crying. They were shocked to hear from him. What an amazing story.

Quote:
It had logged only 800 hours of flight time, according to the head of the National Transportation Safety Commission, Soerjanto Tjahjano.

The pilot is reported to have radioed air traffic control in Jakarta asking for permission to turn back, shortly after taking off.

Now it has emerged that the plane had some technical problems on Sunday on its penultimate flight.

A technical log obtained by the BBC for that flight - from Denpasar airport in Bali to Jakarta - suggests that the airspeed reading on the captain's instrument was unreliable, and the altitude readings differed on the captain's and first officer's instruments.

As a result of the problem, the captain handed over control of the plane to the first officer, the crew continued their flight and they landed safely at Jakarta.

Lion Air have not confirmed the report, but this may have been the unspecified "technical problem" that the company's chief executive said the plane's Denpasar to Jakarta flight had suffered from.

Edward Sirait said that this problem had been "resolved according to procedure".

He added that Lion Air was currently operating 11 aircraft of the same model. He said there were no plans to ground the rest of the planes.
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ContagiousInspiration
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:04 pm    Post subject:

I hope the Govt worker doesn't lose too much sanity over what happened

Amazing story indeed.
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leor_77
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:51 pm    Post subject:

So horrible...RIP.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:08 pm    Post subject:

Dang man prayers out ot the families this sucks
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methdxman
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:43 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
Yeah, this 737 Max 8 was delivered on Aug 2018. It logged approx 800 hours. This plane had trouble in Denpasar already. It flew from Denpasar to Jakarta the previous night and was looked over by engineers. The engineers gave the plane the ok to fly. at 6am, the plane flew to Pangkal Pinang for a 1 hr flight. 10 minutes into the flight, they asked air traffic controller if they can turn back. After that, they lost contact and went down into the ocean.

There's an amazing story to this. One guy survived. He didn't survive the crash, but he failed to board that plane due to being stuck in traffic and arriving to the airport late. He's a government worker. There's about 20 of them that work in Pangkal Pinang but live in Jakarta. Every friday, they fly back to Jakarta and then on Monday morning, they take this same flight to Pangkal Pinang.

This guy, he usually arrives at the airport at 3am for this 6am flight. Somehow this time, he got stuck in traffic so bad he arrived at 6:20am. He had to take a later flight. When he landed at Pangkal Pinang, that's when he learned of the crash. He immediately called his mother and family who were crying. They were shocked to hear from him. What an amazing story.

Quote:
It had logged only 800 hours of flight time, according to the head of the National Transportation Safety Commission, Soerjanto Tjahjano.

The pilot is reported to have radioed air traffic control in Jakarta asking for permission to turn back, shortly after taking off.

Now it has emerged that the plane had some technical problems on Sunday on its penultimate flight.

A technical log obtained by the BBC for that flight - from Denpasar airport in Bali to Jakarta - suggests that the airspeed reading on the captain's instrument was unreliable, and the altitude readings differed on the captain's and first officer's instruments.

As a result of the problem, the captain handed over control of the plane to the first officer, the crew continued their flight and they landed safely at Jakarta.

Lion Air have not confirmed the report, but this may have been the unspecified "technical problem" that the company's chief executive said the plane's Denpasar to Jakarta flight had suffered from.

Edward Sirait said that this problem had been "resolved according to procedure".

He added that Lion Air was currently operating 11 aircraft of the same model. He said there were no plans to ground the rest of the planes.


Sorry, but like every bad journalist your first course of blame goes to a possible fault in the plane... this is going to be 100% pilot error just like the vast majority of incidents of this type.

And to say that the plane had a "problem" in an earlier flight is disingenuous. Planes have problems all the time that need to be taken care of and this is always logged into books. But again this is speculation. If anything you and other journalists should err on the side of human error.
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governator
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:29 am    Post subject:

RIP
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:26 am    Post subject:

methdxman wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Yeah, this 737 Max 8 was delivered on Aug 2018. It logged approx 800 hours. This plane had trouble in Denpasar already. It flew from Denpasar to Jakarta the previous night and was looked over by engineers. The engineers gave the plane the ok to fly. at 6am, the plane flew to Pangkal Pinang for a 1 hr flight. 10 minutes into the flight, they asked air traffic controller if they can turn back. After that, they lost contact and went down into the ocean.

There's an amazing story to this. One guy survived. He didn't survive the crash, but he failed to board that plane due to being stuck in traffic and arriving to the airport late. He's a government worker. There's about 20 of them that work in Pangkal Pinang but live in Jakarta. Every friday, they fly back to Jakarta and then on Monday morning, they take this same flight to Pangkal Pinang.

This guy, he usually arrives at the airport at 3am for this 6am flight. Somehow this time, he got stuck in traffic so bad he arrived at 6:20am. He had to take a later flight. When he landed at Pangkal Pinang, that's when he learned of the crash. He immediately called his mother and family who were crying. They were shocked to hear from him. What an amazing story.

Quote:
It had logged only 800 hours of flight time, according to the head of the National Transportation Safety Commission, Soerjanto Tjahjano.

The pilot is reported to have radioed air traffic control in Jakarta asking for permission to turn back, shortly after taking off.

Now it has emerged that the plane had some technical problems on Sunday on its penultimate flight.

A technical log obtained by the BBC for that flight - from Denpasar airport in Bali to Jakarta - suggests that the airspeed reading on the captain's instrument was unreliable, and the altitude readings differed on the captain's and first officer's instruments.

As a result of the problem, the captain handed over control of the plane to the first officer, the crew continued their flight and they landed safely at Jakarta.

Lion Air have not confirmed the report, but this may have been the unspecified "technical problem" that the company's chief executive said the plane's Denpasar to Jakarta flight had suffered from.

Edward Sirait said that this problem had been "resolved according to procedure".

He added that Lion Air was currently operating 11 aircraft of the same model. He said there were no plans to ground the rest of the planes.


Sorry, but like every bad journalist your first course of blame goes to a possible fault in the plane... this is going to be 100% pilot error just like the vast majority of incidents of this type.

And to say that the plane had a "problem" in an earlier flight is disingenuous. Planes have problems all the time that need to be taken care of and this is always logged into books. But again this is speculation. If anything you and other journalists should err on the side of human error.


I don't know if its the journalists' job to assert blame. They're just supposed to report the information. This is the information that was given.
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:46 am    Post subject:

methdxman wrote:


Sorry, but like every bad journalist your first course of blame goes to a possible fault in the plane... this is going to be 100% pilot error just like the vast majority of incidents of this type.

And to say that the plane had a "problem" in an earlier flight is disingenuous. Planes have problems all the time that need to be taken care of and this is always logged into books. But again this is speculation. If anything you and other journalists should err on the side of human error.


Lion Air crash: Jet had airspeed problems on final four flights

A passenger jet that crashed into the sea near Indonesia last week had an airspeed indicator problem on its final four flights, officials say.

The damage to the device, which tells pilots how fast their planes are travelling, was revealed after the recovery of a "black box" recorder.

The suggestion that the Lion Air plane had a defective airspeed indicator is a significant development. The aircraft's erratic behaviour during its final flight, and reports of an issue during a previous journey, had already prompted speculation that this could have been an issue.

Airspeed is measured using sensors called pitot tubes, which record pressure on the wing or front surface of the aircraft. This is compared to pressure readings obtained from a so-called "static port" on another part of the aircraft. With corrections, the difference between the two can be used to calculate airspeed.

Pitot tubes, however, can become blocked - for example due to icing. Such instances can cause erratic airspeed readings, which in turn can confuse pilots and affect the way in which the aircraft is flown, possibly leading to accidents.

In 2009, for example, an Air France flight went down off the coast of Brazil. Blocked pitot tubes triggered a chain of events in which the pilots became confused and disorientated and lost control. In every other respect the aircraft was working perfectly.

These are still early days in the investigation and more information is needed. But if unreliable airspeed readings were a factor, key questions will be: what was the cause - poor design or poor maintenance procedures, for example - and why previous problems were apparently not rectified.

What is the problem with the instruments?
Logs obtained by the BBC have already shown that on the Boeing 737 Max's penultimate flight, airspeed readings were unreliable.

But Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee now says there were also problems on the previous two flights, as well as the final, fatal journey.

They did not say whether the problems stemmed from a mechanical or maintenance issue, or whether the faulty meter was a factor in the crash.

"Currently we are looking for the cause of problem," said investigator Nurcahyo Utomo, Associated Press reported.

"Whether the trouble came from its indicator, its measuring device or sensor, or a problem with its computer. This is what we do not know yet and we will find it out".
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methdxman
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:45 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
methdxman wrote:


Sorry, but like every bad journalist your first course of blame goes to a possible fault in the plane... this is going to be 100% pilot error just like the vast majority of incidents of this type.

And to say that the plane had a "problem" in an earlier flight is disingenuous. Planes have problems all the time that need to be taken care of and this is always logged into books. But again this is speculation. If anything you and other journalists should err on the side of human error.


Lion Air crash: Jet had airspeed problems on final four flights

A passenger jet that crashed into the sea near Indonesia last week had an airspeed indicator problem on its final four flights, officials say.

The damage to the device, which tells pilots how fast their planes are travelling, was revealed after the recovery of a "black box" recorder.

The suggestion that the Lion Air plane had a defective airspeed indicator is a significant development. The aircraft's erratic behaviour during its final flight, and reports of an issue during a previous journey, had already prompted speculation that this could have been an issue.

Airspeed is measured using sensors called pitot tubes, which record pressure on the wing or front surface of the aircraft. This is compared to pressure readings obtained from a so-called "static port" on another part of the aircraft. With corrections, the difference between the two can be used to calculate airspeed.

Pitot tubes, however, can become blocked - for example due to icing. Such instances can cause erratic airspeed readings, which in turn can confuse pilots and affect the way in which the aircraft is flown, possibly leading to accidents.

In 2009, for example, an Air France flight went down off the coast of Brazil. Blocked pitot tubes triggered a chain of events in which the pilots became confused and disorientated and lost control. In every other respect the aircraft was working perfectly.

These are still early days in the investigation and more information is needed. But if unreliable airspeed readings were a factor, key questions will be: what was the cause - poor design or poor maintenance procedures, for example - and why previous problems were apparently not rectified.

What is the problem with the instruments?
Logs obtained by the BBC have already shown that on the Boeing 737 Max's penultimate flight, airspeed readings were unreliable.

But Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee now says there were also problems on the previous two flights, as well as the final, fatal journey.

They did not say whether the problems stemmed from a mechanical or maintenance issue, or whether the faulty meter was a factor in the crash.

"Currently we are looking for the cause of problem," said investigator Nurcahyo Utomo, Associated Press reported.

"Whether the trouble came from its indicator, its measuring device or sensor, or a problem with its computer. This is what we do not know yet and we will find it out".


Yes I already know where this is going. Faulty sensors does not make a plane not airworthy. Similar thing happened in Air France 447 where the pitot tubes got iced up so the plane's computers were getting inconsistent readings, which basically set the plane into "Alternate Law" which puts responsibility of angle of attack and airspeed on the pilots. The pilots (bleep) up, had bad communication, didn't figure out what was going on, stalled the aircraft by putting it into a crazy vertical calimb and crashed a perfectly fine aircraft into the ocean.

On modern day Boeings there is no equivalent of "Alternate Law" so the pilots have to manually disengage the autopilot (which relies on the sensors to operate) and fly the plane themselves.

I would bet my life that the sensors were giving inconsistent readings (as reported) to the plane, and the pilots were unable to recognize this, maybe disengaged autopilot too late (or never) and the plane crashed as the auto pilot had no good readings to control AOA and airspeed reliably.

Again, autopilot is a CONVENIENCE in modern day aviation, albeit a heavily relied upon convenience, but pilots must always be trained to take off, fly, and land a plane manually. Any full report on this accident will list all contributing factors, and no doubt Boeing will have to address any issues with faulty sensors (as did Airbus after AF447), but in the end this will conclude as the primary cause of accident being PILOT ERROR. The plane was perfectly fine.
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