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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:16 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
It's more than personal attachment because we drafted them. It's because they will still be in their prime in 9-10 years. Giving up 10 years for 3 years would be disappointing.


It depends how high their primes are (I'm not sure which exact players you mean. Lonzo is not being traded under any circumstance). Paul George, for instance, right now is in the prime of his career and can't make third team All-NBA so how important is it?


You understand that the all-NBA team is also somewhat limited by its guards/forwards/big man delineations? The forward spot is arguably one of the most crowded positions on the all-NBA ballot. If you took out the "center" designation, would you have Gobert/Deandre over PG13? I would take PG13 over them.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:23 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
It's more than personal attachment because we drafted them. It's because they will still be in their prime in 9-10 years. Giving up 10 years for 3 years would be disappointing.


It depends how high their primes are (I'm not sure which exact players you mean. Lonzo is not being traded under any circumstance). Paul George, for instance, right now is in the prime of his career and can't make third team All-NBA so how important is it?


You understand that the all-NBA team is also somewhat limited by its guards/forwards/big man delineations? The forward spot is arguably one of the most crowded positions on the all-NBA ballot. If you took out the "center" designation, would you have Gobert/Deandre over PG13? I would take PG13 over them.


Over Gobert? No way. That guy is the most dominant defensive player in the game, but plug George in as a guard, as I've seen many here do, and tell me if he makes it.

Anyway, the point was not every player's "prime" is equal. A declining LBJ is probably better than Paul George right now, and by some measure.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:25 pm    Post subject:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
It's more than personal attachment because we drafted them. It's because they will still be in their prime in 9-10 years. Giving up 10 years for 3 years would be disappointing.



1. It depends how well players pan out. I'd rather have 3 years of prime Wilt than 10 years of Mel Counts (how about that for some oldies?). At this point, we pretty much know what we'll get from Lebron; we don't know what we'll get from Ball or Ingram. We all hope they'll turn into stars, but it's certainly possible neither one pans out.

2. The days are gone when you can be confident than your draft picks will stick around for a long time. I don't think you can base your strategy on 10-year time frames.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:29 pm    Post subject:

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Over Gobert? No way. That guy is the most dominant defensive player in the game, but plug George in as a guard, as I've seen many here do, and tell me if he makes it.

Anyway, the point was not every player's "prime" is equal. A declining LBJ is probably better than Paul George right now, and by some measure.


My point is that you can't limit a player based solely on "all-NBA" selections which include artificial positional distinctions. For the record, although I think Gobert is a monster defender, i would take PG13 for his versatility and proven performance in the playoffs. Gobert is a bit of a limited player in the playoffs.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:33 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
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Over Gobert? No way. That guy is the most dominant defensive player in the game, but plug George in as a guard, as I've seen many here do, and tell me if he makes it.

Anyway, the point was not every player's "prime" is equal. A declining LBJ is probably better than Paul George right now, and by some measure.


My point is that you can't limit a player based solely on "all-NBA" selections which include artificial positional distinctions. For the record, although I think Gobert is a monster defender, i would take PG13 for his versatility and proven performance in the playoffs. Gobert is a bit of a limited player in the playoffs.


I just used it as a quick, easy to grasp example. There are many other advanced metrics that show he's not an elite "superstar" player.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:35 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
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Over Gobert? No way. That guy is the most dominant defensive player in the game, but plug George in as a guard, as I've seen many here do, and tell me if he makes it.

Anyway, the point was not every player's "prime" is equal. A declining LBJ is probably better than Paul George right now, and by some measure.


My point is that you can't limit a player based solely on "all-NBA" selections which include artificial positional distinctions. For the record, although I think Gobert is a monster defender, i would take PG13 for his versatility and proven performance in the playoffs. Gobert is a bit of a limited player in the playoffs.


I just used it as a quick, easy to grasp example. There are many other advanced metrics that show he's not an elite "superstar" player.


So is Gobert an "elite superstar player" to you b/c he made it on the all-NBA list?

Given where the game is going in the playoffs, I take a PG13 type player and surround him with another max player more than i would with Gobert. He is so limited offensively in the playoffs while PG13 is a legit 2 way player.

Again, my focus is on who actually performs when it's the playoffs, and PG13 put up monster numbers last year in a hopelessly lop sided matchup with the Cavs. And he shut DRoz the year before. He's a proven playoff player which is something we will need.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:36 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
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Over Gobert? No way. That guy is the most dominant defensive player in the game, but plug George in as a guard, as I've seen many here do, and tell me if he makes it.

Anyway, the point was not every player's "prime" is equal. A declining LBJ is probably better than Paul George right now, and by some measure.


My point is that you can't limit a player based solely on "all-NBA" selections which include artificial positional distinctions. For the record, although I think Gobert is a monster defender, i would take PG13 for his versatility and proven performance in the playoffs. Gobert is a bit of a limited player in the playoffs.



That's true -- the first team all-NBA center isn't necessarily better than a forward who was left off the third team.

That said, the fact that George came in 7 or 8 among forwards this year does tell you he's not exactly at the top of the NBA superstar pecking order.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:40 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
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Over Gobert? No way. That guy is the most dominant defensive player in the game, but plug George in as a guard, as I've seen many here do, and tell me if he makes it.

Anyway, the point was not every player's "prime" is equal. A declining LBJ is probably better than Paul George right now, and by some measure.


My point is that you can't limit a player based solely on "all-NBA" selections which include artificial positional distinctions. For the record, although I think Gobert is a monster defender, i would take PG13 for his versatility and proven performance in the playoffs. Gobert is a bit of a limited player in the playoffs.



That's true -- the first team all-NBA center isn't necessarily better than a forward who was left off the third team.

That said, the fact that George came in 7 or 8 among forwards this year does tell you he's not exactly at the top of the NBA superstar pecking order.


Sure, but as noted, PG13 sort of tends to coast in the regular season and amps his play up dramatically in the playoffs. It's not like the forward position isn't the deepest in the NBA (LBJ/KD/Kahwai/Giannis/Green/Butler is nothing to sneeze at).
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:49 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:


Sure, but as noted, PG13 sort of tends to coast in the regular season and amps his play up dramatically in the playoffs. .


Hmm. He's only been in 11 playoff games over the last 3 years so I am a little skeptical of that kind of sweeping generalization.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:59 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:


Sure, but as noted, PG13 sort of tends to coast in the regular season and amps his play up dramatically in the playoffs. .


Hmm. He's only been in 11 playoff games over the last 3 years so I am a little skeptical of that kind of sweeping generalization.


As opposed to Gobert?

Just look at his stats when he's been in the playoffs. I'm fairly confident you put him with another max guy and a decent supporting cast...and he'll outperform someone like Gobert who is fortunate to be in the all-NBA thanks to the required center spot.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:02 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Quote:
Over Gobert? No way. That guy is the most dominant defensive player in the game, but plug George in as a guard, as I've seen many here do, and tell me if he makes it.

Anyway, the point was not every player's "prime" is equal. A declining LBJ is probably better than Paul George right now, and by some measure.


My point is that you can't limit a player based solely on "all-NBA" selections which include artificial positional distinctions. For the record, although I think Gobert is a monster defender, i would take PG13 for his versatility and proven performance in the playoffs. Gobert is a bit of a limited player in the playoffs.


I just used it as a quick, easy to grasp example. There are many other advanced metrics that show he's not an elite "superstar" player.


So is Gobert an "elite superstar player" to you b/c he made it on the all-NBA list?

Given where the game is going in the playoffs, I take a PG13 type player and surround him with another max player more than i would with Gobert. He is so limited offensively in the playoffs while PG13 is a legit 2 way player.

Again, my focus is on who actually performs when it's the playoffs, and PG13 put up monster numbers last year in a hopelessly lop sided matchup with the Cavs. And he shut DRoz the year before. He's a proven playoff player which is something we will need.


Is this a serious question? How did you make that leap?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:07 pm    Post subject:

Miami where Lebron started 26, he was still 25 when their 2010/11 season started. Bosh 26, Wade 28.

This isn't like Miami. Lebron will be 33 when he suits up for the Lakers, and turns 34 in December of 18. Ball or Ingram cannot be touch. End of story.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:12 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:


Sure, but as noted, PG13 sort of tends to coast in the regular season and amps his play up dramatically in the playoffs. .


Hmm. He's only been in 11 playoff games over the last 3 years so I am a little skeptical of that kind of sweeping generalization.


As opposed to Gobert?

Just look at his stats when he's been in the playoffs. I'm fairly confident you put him with another max guy and a decent supporting cast...and he'll outperform someone like Gobert who is fortunate to be in the all-NBA thanks to the required center spot.




I think George is definitely a max player, albeit a second-tier superstar. He wouldn't be my first choice to build a team around but I think he'd be a great #2 guy.

I wasn't comparing him to Gobert, but since you are, it isn't an apples to apples comparison. Gobert just had his break though this year, and he's kind of where George was four or five years ago when he had his breakthrough. It's anyone's guess who will be the better of them two or three years from now.

Given the choice, I'd take George today, but I might take Gobert two years from now.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:13 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Quote:
Over Gobert? No way. That guy is the most dominant defensive player in the game, but plug George in as a guard, as I've seen many here do, and tell me if he makes it.

Anyway, the point was not every player's "prime" is equal. A declining LBJ is probably better than Paul George right now, and by some measure.


My point is that you can't limit a player based solely on "all-NBA" selections which include artificial positional distinctions. For the record, although I think Gobert is a monster defender, i would take PG13 for his versatility and proven performance in the playoffs. Gobert is a bit of a limited player in the playoffs.


I just used it as a quick, easy to grasp example. There are many other advanced metrics that show he's not an elite "superstar" player.


So is Gobert an "elite superstar player" to you b/c he made it on the all-NBA list?

Given where the game is going in the playoffs, I take a PG13 type player and surround him with another max player more than i would with Gobert. He is so limited offensively in the playoffs while PG13 is a legit 2 way player.

Again, my focus is on who actually performs when it's the playoffs, and PG13 put up monster numbers last year in a hopelessly lop sided matchup with the Cavs. And he shut DRoz the year before. He's a proven playoff player which is something we will need.


Is this a serious question? How did you make that leap?


You noted that PG13 couldn't even make an "all-NBA" team.

I responded that the all-NBA team isn't a list of the top 15 players, but rather a list that compels voters to divide players into 3 categories.

I used Gobert as an example. Is it b/c he got 2nd team all-NBA that makes him more of a "star" over PG13? I don't think it does. For example, Andre Drummond made 3rd team all-NBA the year before too.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:16 pm    Post subject:

The Laker club isn't much like Miami circa 2010. The HEAT had a proven all-NBA player and BTW was a champion and Finals MVP, in Wade. We have some prospects of comparatively unknown or unproven worth and chemistry. Our coach is similarly less proven compared to even ES (at the time that the big three combo was installed.) Even our front office is less known quantity than was Riles.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:23 pm    Post subject:

Wilkes52 wrote:
The Laker club isn't much like Miami circa 2010. The HEAT had a proven all-NBA player and BTW was a champion and Finals MVP, in Wade. We have some prospects of comparatively unknown or unproven worth and chemistry. Our coach is similarly less proven compared to even ES (at the time that the big three combo was installed.) Even our front office is less known quantity than was Riles.



The article is only using the term "Miami-like" in terms of building a team by acquiring superstars through free agency.

But you're right adding two stars to a proven player like Wade is different than adding them to unproven guys like Ball or Ingram (though that view might change after we see what they do this season)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:00 pm    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
Miami where Lebron started 26, he was still 25 when their 2010/11 season started. Bosh 26, Wade 28.

This isn't like Miami. Lebron will be 33 when he suits up for the Lakers, and turns 34 in December of 18. Ball or Ingram cannot be touch. End of story.


True story.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:45 pm    Post subject:

Vin wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
Miami where Lebron started 26, he was still 25 when their 2010/11 season started. Bosh 26, Wade 28.

This isn't like Miami. Lebron will be 33 when he suits up for the Lakers, and turns 34 in December of 18. Ball or Ingram cannot be touch. End of story.


True story.

we don't lebron because he's good. what's good for us is he might bring along a couple legit superstars just because of his hype and he'll get the refs to make calls in our favor, and stuff like that. we definitely shouldn't rely on him as far as actually carrying our load because he will fail miserably at that in the west.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:09 pm    Post subject:

Vin wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
Miami where Lebron started 26, he was still 25 when their 2010/11 season started. Bosh 26, Wade 28.

This isn't like Miami. Lebron will be 33 when he suits up for the Lakers, and turns 34 in December of 18. Ball or Ingram cannot be touch. End of story.


True story.


Well, the good thing is this is all moot for at least a year, so we have a full season to look at Ball and Ingram before making a decision. And who knows, Lebron (and George) may end up not being interested in coming here, so all this may come to nothing anyway.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:26 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I don't think Magic wants to sever a possible longer run (fueled later by Lonzo/Ingram) just to placate LBJ's 2-3 year run. That would be foolish and i don't think the Lakers will do that. If LBJ is dictating that Lonzo and/or Ingram are moved for short term players, i don't see them cowing to that.


This is why I was opposed to the 2 superstar plan.

Now, 1 star caliber player who is in it for the long term plus multiple contributing pieces? Sign me up for that.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:37 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I don't think Magic wants to sever a possible longer run (fueled later by Lonzo/Ingram) just to placate LBJ's 2-3 year run. That would be foolish and i don't think the Lakers will do that. If LBJ is dictating that Lonzo and/or Ingram are moved for short term players, i don't see them cowing to that.


This is why I was opposed to the 2 superstar plan.

Now, 1 star caliber player who is in it for the long term plus multiple contributing pieces? Sign me up for that.


Problem is we are unlikely to get 1 star without another. And Lonzo and Ingram are so young and not established enough.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:28 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
It's more than personal attachment because we drafted them. It's because they will still be in their prime in 9-10 years. Giving up 10 years for 3 years would be disappointing.


It depends how high their primes are (I'm not sure which exact players you mean. Lonzo is not being traded under any circumstance. Let's just stop that). Paul George, for instance, right now is in the prime of his career and can't make third team All-NBA so how important is it?


LeGM had Andrew Wiggins traded to get him another developed piece. Ignorance is bliss, sure, but you better seriously consider the possibility that LeBron wants to ship out Lonzo and Ingram to create a team that will compete immediately, but flame out and be tanking in two years. And for anyone who says Magic doesn't want to do that, if people never had to do things they didn't want to do in order to make a deal they do want to do, the word "negotiations" wouldn't even exist. Be careful what you wish for.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:30 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
It's more than personal attachment because we drafted them. It's because they will still be in their prime in 9-10 years. Giving up 10 years for 3 years would be disappointing.



1. It depends how well players pan out. I'd rather have 3 years of prime Wilt than 10 years of Mel Counts (how about that for some oldies?). At this point, we pretty much know what we'll get from Lebron; we don't know what we'll get from Ball or Ingram. We all hope they'll turn into stars, but it's certainly possible neither one pans out.

2. The days are gone when you can be confident than your draft picks will stick around for a long time. I don't think you can base your strategy on 10-year time frames.


So 7 years versus 2 years?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:31 pm    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
Miami where Lebron started 26, he was still 25 when their 2010/11 season started. Bosh 26, Wade 28.

This isn't like Miami. Lebron will be 33 when he suits up for the Lakers, and turns 34 in December of 18. Ball or Ingram cannot be touch. End of story.


How likely would you have thought a D'Angelo Russell for Brook Lopez type trade would be a week before it happened? Gotta give up something to get something sometimes.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:57 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I don't think Magic wants to sever a possible longer run (fueled later by Lonzo/Ingram) just to placate LBJ's 2-3 year run. That would be foolish and i don't think the Lakers will do that. If LBJ is dictating that Lonzo and/or Ingram are moved for short term players, i don't see them cowing to that.


This is why I was opposed to the 2 superstar plan.

Now, 1 star caliber player who is in it for the long term plus multiple contributing pieces? Sign me up for that.


Cavs didn't win with 3 all-star and u think we are winning anything with 1 all-star and change?

Not even talking teams with 2 all stars yet
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