LBJ/Wilt Comparison When They Joined the Lakers
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venturalakersfan
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:55 pm    Post subject:

If one considers the entirety of their basketball career, I can't see how any name other than Alcindor/Kareem can be mentioned. One of the greatest high school players, one of the greatest college players and one of the greatest NBA players ever
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:18 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
If one considers the entirety of their basketball career, I can't see how any name other than Alcindor/Kareem can be mentioned. One of the greatest high school players, one of the greatest college players and one of the greatest NBA players ever


I agree, Kareem was the best
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:30 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
P.K. wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
I've heard some old Laker fans say they would go to the games and count his blocks at 20 (no such stat in his time).

I'm old enough to have watched Wilt - although only on TV
Wilt would often get 2 (or sometimes 3) blocks on the same possession. It happened so frequently that it was almost commonplace.


waas it just Wilt or common occurances with other centers and Wilt was just the best on?

Other centers have obviously done it too - just much more infrequently. You'd also usually see other centers do this where they blocked the same guy again.
the thing about Wilt was that he did it very very often. Sometimes multiple times in a game.
Wilt would block the initial shot and the deflection could go to a guy 6-8 feet away who'd then try to put it back up...and Wilt could recover, take one of his giant steps, and block the 2nd guy.

Wilt was a guy that was so nimble that he recovered from the initial block incredibly quickly, and then could get back up in the air again just as quickly.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:59 am    Post subject:

I was a kid, but I did get to see Wilt play quite a few times, some in person and some on TV. He was the real deal, and indeed a fearsome defensive presence under the basket. Dominant rebounder. Seems clear his best days were earlier in his career. He was still a monster, but a little bit older by the time he donned the Forum Blue and Gold.

I think what hurts Wilt in the GOAT conversation were all the times he lost to Russell (West and Baylor suffered the same fate, but they weren't centers of course). Wilt was bigger, stronger and more gifted than Russell, but Russell had a more aggressive approach to the game. His mental game was superior to Wilt's, and imo that often gave Russell just enough of an edge to outlast him.

I found interesting a comment I saw Jerry West make about Wilt. It was in a documentary about the 1970s Knicks that beat the Lakers twice in the Finals (Lakers of course got them once too). The discussion was about the famous Willis Reed game, Game 7 in 1970. Wilt was criticized for that one, too, although to be fair he was just a few weeks removed from returning from a serious knee injury which had knocked him out for most of the regular season.

West was asked about Wilt's performance in that Game 7, why Wilt hadn't been more aggressive, and West said something like "You never knew what was going through Wilt's mind". West has usually been very complimentary about Wilt thru the years, but he seemed a little annoyed when he made that comment, the pain of that Game 7 loss undoubtedly flashing thru his mind at that moment.

And the Game 7 debacle in 1969 between Wilt and Butch Van Breda Kolff. VBK was patently absurd not to put Wilt back in that game, but a lot of folks, including Russell, have questioned why he ever took himself out of the game in the first place. West, for instance, was playing that game (as well as Game 6) with a torn hamstring.

Those moments hurt Wilt in the court of public opinion, and of course the media was never in love with him either. They are inevitably brought up in any GOAT discussion about him.

There's no question he's in the conversation and I loved the guy. But Kareem is still probably my GOAT. And if the media wants to count championships, with all due respect to MJ, Magic, Kobe or anyone else (LeBron isn't even in the conversation yet in that scenario), the hands down winner is Russell. 11 titles in 13 tries. The greatest winner in the history of US team sports.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:07 am    Post subject:

After Wilt retired from the NBA he DOMINATED pro volleyball.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:25 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Just interesting parallels b/w Wilt and LBJ.

Two all time greats.

Two all-stat monsters.

Both 32-33 when they joined the Lakers.

Both physical specimens who played ridiculous games/minutes.


You know Lebron is still on the Cavs, right? lol
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:25 am    Post subject:

When speaking of the "consensus" top 8-10 all time greats (which is of course always subject to debate), I'm interested to compare longevity, especially when they hit 30+ years old.

MJ:15 years; post 30 very productive.
KAJ: 20 years; post 30 very productive.
Magic: 12 years; career cut short.
Russell: 13 years; post 30 very productive.
Wilt: 14 years, post 30 very productive.
Bird: 13 years; post 30 started breaking down.
Kobe: 20 years; post 30 very productive until Achilles injury.
Duncan: 19 years; post 30 very productive but overall stats waned pretty dramatically when he hit mid-30s.

(LBJ, still active)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:44 am    Post subject:

Back in the day the media was totally Boston/East coast nut-riders. Even though Wilt was from the east he was always the bad guy because he was so big, dominant, FLASHY on and off the court. This made him an easy target.
When he went to Kansas the media hate grew and he became definitively the basketball media's public enemy #1 from then on.
Russell's approach and basketball IQ is second to no one even to this day. He is the greatest small baller center EVER and no one is even close.

IMO Both have to be closely considered in the goat convo with a slight edge going to Wilt. Russell would agree and Wilt would probably pick Russell between the two.
They were great friends off the court and in the early years often ate dinner at their parents homes and partied together when the schedule permitted.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:56 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
What do folks think about the parallel b/w age 32-36 Wilt and possibly age 33-35 LBJ? Could LBJ still be productive?

I know Wilt slowed down towards the end, and started being more of a passer/defender as opposed to scorer, but he still played nearly 44mpg and except 1 year, nearly every game.


One thing why I am confident in Lebron still being quite effective into the last 1/3 of his career is that he has developed his shot, his post game and overall fundamentals to a point where if his athleticism declined a bit, he could still get his. Also, he was already A LOT more athletic than the rest of the league that his athletic regression will bring him to be just more athletic. He keeps his body in the best shape possible so he will still be bigger than almost everyone in the league. A good comparison for Lebron in his later years would be Malone. Malone was effective all the way until his last season at 41.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:58 am    Post subject:

NBALakerLegends wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
What do folks think about the parallel b/w age 32-36 Wilt and possibly age 33-35 LBJ? Could LBJ still be productive?

I know Wilt slowed down towards the end, and started being more of a passer/defender as opposed to scorer, but he still played nearly 44mpg and except 1 year, nearly every game.


One thing why I am confident in Lebron still being quite effective into the last 1/3 of his career is that he has developed his shot, his post game and overall fundamentals to a point where if his athleticism declined a bit, he could still get his. Also, he was already A LOT more athletic than the rest of the league that his athletic regression will bring him to be just more athletic. He keeps his body in the best shape possible so he will still be bigger than almost everyone in the league. A good comparison for Lebron in his later years would be Malone. Malone was effective all the way until his last season at 41.


The interesting transition would be playing PF "full time" instead of in closing lineups. Will the extra banging take a toll on his body?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:36 am    Post subject:

KBH wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Just interesting parallels b/w Wilt and LBJ.

Two all time greats.

Two all-stat monsters.

Both 32-33 when they joined the Lakers.

Both physical specimens who played ridiculous games/minutes.


You know Lebron is still on the Cavs, right? lol


He's coming man, get ready
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:50 am    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
KBH wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Just interesting parallels b/w Wilt and LBJ.

Two all time greats.

Two all-stat monsters.

Both 32-33 when they joined the Lakers.

Both physical specimens who played ridiculous games/minutes.


You know Lebron is still on the Cavs, right? lol


He's coming man, get ready


so far for the plus side:

1. Space Jam/business empire
2. Savannah and kids/Home

What will seal the deal imo is the lakers young core performs well, say 35+ wins and looking good.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:02 pm    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
Inspector Gadget wrote:
KBH wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Just interesting parallels b/w Wilt and LBJ.

Two all time greats.

Two all-stat monsters.

Both 32-33 when they joined the Lakers.

Both physical specimens who played ridiculous games/minutes.


You know Lebron is still on the Cavs, right? lol


He's coming man, get ready


so far for the plus side:

1. Space Jam/business empire
2. Savannah and kids/Home

What will seal the deal imo is the lakers young core performs well, say 35+ wins and looking good.


Absolutely, we have to play good next year, he needs to see a different mentality with the team that he knows he can play with potentially in 2018. The reason why some are saying that people want to play here again is because of the different culture since Magic and Pelinka were hired.... the icing on the cake will be LeBron looking at his potential running mate Lonzo Ball putting up good stats and the Lakers winning.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:06 pm    Post subject:

Dr. Funkbot wrote:
I read that he had a 48 inch vert- for a 7 footer, insane.

he did not have a 48" vertical (I'm assuming standing vertical). Neither did MJ. These are ridiculous myths.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:21 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
I read that he had a 48 inch vert- for a 7 footer, insane.

he did not have a 48" vertical (I'm assuming standing vertical). Neither did MJ. These are ridiculous myths.
maybe, maybe not
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:31 pm    Post subject:

pio2u wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
I read that he had a 48 inch vert- for a 7 footer, insane.

he did not have a 48" vertical (I'm assuming standing vertical). Neither did MJ. These are ridiculous myths.
maybe, maybe not


We've had whole threads about Wilt Chamberlain mythology. He killed a bobcat with his bare hands. That sort of stuff. Wilt was a showman, and his buddies played along with it.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:11 pm    Post subject:

The all myth argument is weak. He was a spectacular athlete by any measure. His feats have been recounted not only by "buddies," but also by rivals, analysts, and officials of the day. He seemingly fooled a lot of people, including track and field officials in college.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:16 pm    Post subject:

OregonLakerGuy wrote:
The all myth argument is weak. He was a spectacular athlete by any measure. His feats have been recounted not only by "buddies," but also by rivals, analysts, and officials of the day. He seemingly fooled a lot of people, including track and field officials in college.


Exactly; Wilt's records are not myth they are legendary. Plus there are videos and books that back-up many of the contentions. He is much more man than myth.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:13 pm    Post subject:

OregonLakerGuy wrote:
The all myth argument is weak. He was a spectacular athlete by any measure. His feats have been recounted not only by "buddies," but also by rivals, analysts, and officials of the day. He seemingly fooled a lot of people, including track and field officials in college.


So you think he killed a bobcat with his bare hands?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:35 pm    Post subject:

pio2u wrote:
OregonLakerGuy wrote:
The all myth argument is weak. He was a spectacular athlete by any measure. His feats have been recounted not only by "buddies," but also by rivals, analysts, and officials of the day. He seemingly fooled a lot of people, including track and field officials in college.


Exactly; Wilt's records are not myth they are legendary. Plus there are videos and books that back-up many of the contentions. He is much more man than myth.


He did what he did, but if you understand the context of how he did it and when he did it, his achievements aren't as otherworldly as they appear at first glance. His 100 point game, for example, is equal parts an amazing achievement and a farce.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject:

He once dunked with a broken hand

https://youtu.be/IHskN2mt-Y0?t=2m43s
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:07 am    Post subject:

Wilt was a super human athlete, but he played in a different era. It's impossible to say how he'd rank against the centers of the last 40 years, other than to say, he'd be in the discussion for the very best.

Wilt was also a track athlete

"At Overbrook High School in Philly, he high jumped 6 feet, 6 inches, ran the 440 in 49.0 seconds and the 880 in 1:58.3, put the shot 53 feet, 4 inches, broad jumped 22 feet."

Can you think of any 7 footers that can do that?

He was truly amazing.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:46 am    Post subject:

I saw Wilt play for most of his career. I remember the central knock against him during his prime and I shared feeling it: that he had physical advantages but not mental advantages to Bill Russell. Wilt usually had a problem subordinating any number of personal goals (on court, in the locker room, in life), that comparative deficiency compared to Bill Russell,led to Wilt's comparative lack of team success.

Russell usually had better coaching and the better cadres of team mates but some of that was due to Wilt himself. He burned guys out. They quit on him, a lot - or he quit on them.

Wilt could excel as a team player when it suited him and it came when he had a coach to properly motivate him to restrain himself. It happened in '67 un er Alex Hannum, and again finally late career in '72 under Bill Sharman. But Wilt for the most part was difficult to direct and redirect, as he was a megalomaniac of sorts. Tough situ for a guy very insecure about his image and totally self-absorbed in proving himself to be The Best in every respect possible; it came to define him as someone incapable of grasping the impact on his legacy of the team aspect of success.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:05 pm    Post subject:

kevin61 wrote:
Wilt was a super human athlete, but he played in a different era. It's impossible to say how he'd rank against the centers of the last 40 years, other than to say, he'd be in the discussion for the very best.

Wilt was also a track athlete

"At Overbrook High School in Philly, he high jumped 6 feet, 6 inches, ran the 440 in 49.0 seconds and the 880 in 1:58.3, put the shot 53 feet, 4 inches, broad jumped 22 feet."

Can you think of any 7 footers that can do that?

He was truly amazing.

http://m.kusports.com/users/photos/2013/mar/08/250827/?templates=mobile

It's worth noting that Wilt's high school track career was in the early 1950's. Before the advent of the Fosbury Flop high jump technique that Dick Fosbury made famous in the 1968 0lympics. I was in grade school at the time, and we had guys trying to replicate the Flop during our PE classes track & field. The Fosbury Flop is pretty much the technique used today where the athlete jumps with his/her back towards the bar.
In Wilt's era there was a "No Diving" over the bar rule in high jumping - and the techniques used in that era were the scissors jump or a variation of a hurdle jump where your front leg went over the bar first. So, Wilt was essentially hurdling 6'6".

I mention this for the younger group that might look at 6'6" and think that's pretty low considering today's college record is 7' 9.75"

If the Fosbury Flop had existed (and been permitted) in Wilts era, you'd probably have seen that Wilt's record would be a lot higher considering his jumping ability and overall agility.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:52 pm    Post subject:

Wilt was a victim of having GM's that didn't understand how to build a team around his talent.When he did have teams built properly around him both set records for most wins in NBA history and a Professional sports record 33 game winning streak.
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