LBJ/Wilt Comparison When They Joined the Lakers
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Fortysixn2
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:27 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Why is Wilt not in the convo for GOAT again, it's always MJ or Kareem only


Because Wilt wasnít that skilled honestly. He was just a man amongst boys, playing for much of his career in a league that really didnít have a lot of talent. That being said, dude was a MONSTER physically, he just did what he wanted.

Itís like Shaq, heís not in the GOAT conversation, but same type of player...just a 1 in 100 million type of genetics, total monster. As far as his actually basketball ability...not GOAT material.

Kareem was tall, but highly highly skilled. Magic was simply the best passer of all time and maybe the best leader of all time (certainly the best PG). Wilt isnít even close to either of those guys.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:27 pm    Post subject:

pio2u wrote:
Back in the day the media was totally Boston/East coast nut-riders. Even though Wilt was from the east he was always the bad guy because he was so big, dominant, FLASHY on and off the court. This made him an easy target.
When he went to Kansas the media hate grew and he became definitively the basketball media's public enemy #1 from then on.
Russell's approach and basketball IQ is second to no one even to this day. He is the greatest small baller center EVER and no one is even close.

IMO Both have to be closely considered in the goat convo with a slight edge going to Wilt. Russell would agree and Wilt would probably pick Russell between the two.
They were great friends off the court and in the early years often ate dinner at their parents homes and partied together when the schedule permitted.

Beside the media bias, also no marketing campaign from Nike for Wilt back in the days like the way they did for MJ.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:29 pm    Post subject:

Fortysixn2 wrote:
governator wrote:
Why is Wilt not in the convo for GOAT again, it's always MJ or Kareem only


Because Wilt wasnít that skilled honestly. He was just a man amongst boys, playing for much of his career in a league that really didnít have a lot of talent.


Um....what?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:29 pm    Post subject:

Fortysixn2 wrote:
governator wrote:
Why is Wilt not in the convo for GOAT again, it's always MJ or Kareem only


Because Wilt wasnít that skilled honestly. He was just a man amongst boys, playing for much of his career in a league that really didnít have a lot of talent. That being said, dude was a MONSTER physically, he just did what he wanted.

Itís like Shaq, heís not in the GOAT conversation, but same type of player...just a 1 in 100 million type of genetics, total monster. As far as his actually basketball ability...not GOAT material.

Kareem was tall, but highly highly skilled. Magic was simply the best passer of all time and maybe the best leader of all time (certainly the best PG). Wilt isnít even close to either of those guys.


Up to last year it was MJ or Kareem with everybody else trailing .Since this post season, now it's MJ or LBJ... I don't think LBJ has passed Kareem, nor Magic... nor Kobe yet
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:31 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Fortysixn2 wrote:
governator wrote:
Why is Wilt not in the convo for GOAT again, it's always MJ or Kareem only


Because Wilt wasnít that skilled honestly. He was just a man amongst boys, playing for much of his career in a league that really didnít have a lot of talent.


Um....what?


Yeah. Seriously. Wilt was skilled AND blessed with genetics.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:41 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
What do folks think about the parallel b/w age 32-36 Wilt and possibly age 33-35 LBJ? Could LBJ still be productive?

I know Wilt slowed down towards the end, and started being more of a passer/defender as opposed to scorer, but he still played nearly 44mpg and except 1 year, nearly every game.


i wasnt around for that era so obviously didnt witness Wilts dominance, but i have a theory from what ive seen/read that he saw Russell win multiple championships (on unfairly stacked teams tho) playing a certain way, so he and most others assumed thats the right way to play basketball, which is why he felt like he had to change his game. coaches played a role in convincing him as well im guessing (Bill Sharman was a former teammate of Russell). this could explain his sudden statistical drop in 2nd half of his career (playoff numbers 1st 6 years: 33ppg, 26.5rpg, 3apg, including 35/25/3 in his lone finals run; playoff numbers in his last 7 years: 17.5ppg, 23.5rpg, 5apg, including 22/29/9 and 15/21/3 in his 2 championship runs. made the finals another 3 times in this period as well)

the other thing is, Wilt was kinda soft from what i gather. heard him once say that he considers what Shaq is doing as murder and that he couldnt do that because he could literally hurt/injure people due to his brute strength. also read that he tried to not dunk and overpower players because he didnt want people to think he dominates just because hes physically superior, but because of his skills. and then you see him shoot those fadeaways and layups when he could have easily dunked and you get an idea what kind of person he was. as crazy as it sounds, you get the feeling he could have been even more dominant if he had that killer instinct like Jordan and Kobe. kinda scary really
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:08 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
MJST wrote:
Fortysixn2 wrote:
governator wrote:
Why is Wilt not in the convo for GOAT again, it's always MJ or Kareem only


Because Wilt wasnít that skilled honestly. He was just a man amongst boys, playing for much of his career in a league that really didnít have a lot of talent.


Um....what?


Yeah. Seriously. Wilt was skilled AND blessed with genetics.


You realize he had a season where he averaged 40 FGA attempts a game? Lol. His crazy numbers are primarily because he was the entire offense for his team most of his career, dump it into the post and watch Wilt use his genetics.

Iím not saying he wasnít good, heck..Dwight Howard is ďgoodĒ and he just relies on his genetics for the most part. Wilt is better than Dwight, but heís not near a good enough basketball player aside from his physical profile to be in the GOAT conversation.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:08 pm    Post subject:

Fortysixn2 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
MJST wrote:
Fortysixn2 wrote:
governator wrote:
Why is Wilt not in the convo for GOAT again, it's always MJ or Kareem only


Because Wilt wasnít that skilled honestly. He was just a man amongst boys, playing for much of his career in a league that really didnít have a lot of talent.


Um....what?


Yeah. Seriously. Wilt was skilled AND blessed with genetics.


You realize he had a season where he averaged 40 FGA attempts a game? Lol. His crazy numbers are primarily because he was the entire offense for his team most of his career, dump it into the post and watch Wilt use his genetics.

Iím not saying he wasnít good, heck..Dwight Howard is ďgoodĒ and he just relies on his genetics for the most part. Wilt is better than Dwight, but heís not near a good enough basketball player aside from his physical profile to be in the GOAT conversation.


You realize that all these guys are blessed with genetics, right? There are a whole lot of guys who are 6' 4" to 6' 8" who could never play at the NBA level, no matter how hard they worked at it. I know this because there are dozens of them every year who work like hell and can't even get drafted. If we narrow it down to guys who become stars in the NBA, it gets even more pronounced. If we narrow it down to superstars and GOAT candidates, it becomes laughable.

Even guys who don't have eye popping physical tools, like John Stockton and Reggie Miller, have the genetic aptitude to do things that ordinary people just can't do. There are guys who spend their lives in a gym, but still can't shoot like Steph Curry.

You may have an implicit bias against the skillset of big men. Don't take that the wrong way. A lot of people have that sort of bias. The reality is that unskilled big men don't make it in the NBA. They're worthless. Big men just have a different set of skills.

I'm one of the people who think that the Wilt fanatics are delusional. I think he tends to be wildly overrated by some people. I still rank him in the top 5-10 all time. If you want an unvarnished analysis of Wilt as a player, go here:

http://www.backpicks.com/2017/12/04/backpicks-goat-9-wilt-chamberlain/
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:53 am    Post subject:

Druggas wrote:
The reason Wilt has dropped from the GOAT discussion is because all the writers from his era are dead. The new media guys, have never seen him play. Not counting ESPN who thinks the NBA started when MJ played.


This is spot on. I saw Kareem's entire career and there's no way anyone will convince me that anyone else was better. But here on the East Coast, Kareem is barely mentioned when the subject of GOAT comes up and Wilt is all but forgotten.
Once those who were teens in the Jordan era get old, someone completely different will be the consensus top choice.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:52 am    Post subject:

vakobe wrote:
Druggas wrote:
The reason Wilt has dropped from the GOAT discussion is because all the writers from his era are dead. The new media guys, have never seen him play. Not counting ESPN who thinks the NBA started when MJ played.


This is spot on. I saw Kareem's entire career and there's no way anyone will convince me that anyone else was better. But here on the East Coast, Kareem is barely mentioned when the subject of GOAT comes up and Wilt is all but forgotten.
Once those who were teens in the Jordan era get old, someone completely different will be the consensus top choice.



There's probably something to this, but I think other factors are more important.

Wilt only won two rings, and many people thought he was more interested in personal stats than team success, and there is evidence to support that.

His otherworldly stats were a product of his era, and lots of people aren't sure how to compare them against modern times. For example, if you know anything about his 100 point games, you know it was a farce, where his teammates constantly fouled to get more possessions so Wilt could score.

Also, Wilt was pretty lazy, often missing shootarounds, and not getting along with teammates.

He was a great player, and I know his career very well, but I wouldn't put him in the GOAT discussion. Top 10 of all times, yes.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:02 am    Post subject:

GOODRICH25 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
What do folks think about the parallel b/w age 32-36 Wilt and possibly age 33-35 LBJ? Could LBJ still be productive?

I know Wilt slowed down towards the end, and started being more of a passer/defender as opposed to scorer, but he still played nearly 44mpg and except 1 year, nearly every game.


i wasnt around for that era so obviously didnt witness Wilts dominance, but i have a theory from what ive seen/read that he saw Russell win multiple championships (on unfairly stacked teams tho) playing a certain way, so he and most others assumed thats the right way to play basketball, which is why he felt like he had to change his game. coaches played a role in convincing him as well im guessing (Bill Sharman was a former teammate of Russell). this could explain his sudden statistical drop in 2nd half of his career (playoff numbers 1st 6 years: 33ppg, 26.5rpg, 3apg, including 35/25/3 in his lone finals run; playoff numbers in his last 7 years: 17.5ppg, 23.5rpg, 5apg, including 22/29/9 and 15/21/3 in his 2 championship runs. made the finals another 3 times in this period as well)

the other thing is, Wilt was kinda soft from what i gather. heard him once say that he considers what Shaq is doing as murder and that he couldnt do that because he could literally hurt/injure people due to his brute strength. also read that he tried to not dunk and overpower players because he didnt want people to think he dominates just because hes physically superior, but because of his skills. and then you see him shoot those fadeaways and layups when he could have easily dunked and you get an idea what kind of person he was. as crazy as it sounds, you get the feeling he could have been even more dominant if he had that killer instinct like Jordan and Kobe. kinda scary really


I wouldn't call Wilt soft. He once threw down a dunk with such strength it hit the foot of an opponent and broke his toe. But Wilt was a gentle guy who was so much stronger than opponents that he supposedly was worried about hurting them.

I wouldn't say he slowed down in LA, as much as he changed the focus of his game from scoring to defense and rebounding. He was still going strong at age 36 (#4 in MVP voting) -- he left the Lakers to become a player-coach in the new ABA, but the Lakers sued him to prevent him from playing. It would be interesting to see how long he could have played at a strong level -- I have no reason to think Wilt couldn't have played until 40 or maybe later.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:22 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
What do folks think about the parallel b/w age 32-36 Wilt and possibly age 33-35 LBJ? Could LBJ still be productive?

I know Wilt slowed down towards the end, and started being more of a passer/defender as opposed to scorer, but he still played nearly 44mpg and except 1 year, nearly every game.


i wasnt around for that era so obviously didnt witness Wilts dominance, but i have a theory from what ive seen/read that he saw Russell win multiple championships (on unfairly stacked teams tho) playing a certain way, so he and most others assumed thats the right way to play basketball, which is why he felt like he had to change his game. coaches played a role in convincing him as well im guessing (Bill Sharman was a former teammate of Russell). this could explain his sudden statistical drop in 2nd half of his career (playoff numbers 1st 6 years: 33ppg, 26.5rpg, 3apg, including 35/25/3 in his lone finals run; playoff numbers in his last 7 years: 17.5ppg, 23.5rpg, 5apg, including 22/29/9 and 15/21/3 in his 2 championship runs. made the finals another 3 times in this period as well)

the other thing is, Wilt was kinda soft from what i gather. heard him once say that he considers what Shaq is doing as murder and that he couldnt do that because he could literally hurt/injure people due to his brute strength. also read that he tried to not dunk and overpower players because he didnt want people to think he dominates just because hes physically superior, but because of his skills. and then you see him shoot those fadeaways and layups when he could have easily dunked and you get an idea what kind of person he was. as crazy as it sounds, you get the feeling he could have been even more dominant if he had that killer instinct like Jordan and Kobe. kinda scary really


I wouldn't call Wilt soft. He once threw down a dunk with such strength it hit the foot of an opponent and broke his toe. But Wilt was a gentle guy who was so much stronger than opponents that he supposedly was worried about hurting them.

I wouldn't say he slowed down in LA, as much as he changed the focus of his game from scoring to defense and rebounding. He was still going strong at age 36 (#4 in MVP voting) -- he left the Lakers to become a player-coach in the new ABA, but the Lakers sued him to prevent him from playing. It would be interesting to see how long he could have played at a strong level -- I have no reason to think Wilt couldn't have played until 40 or maybe later.


yes, gentle is the better term than soft. i couldnt remember it when writing the post

i think with the way he changed his playing style, he could have played well into his 40s even. a 7ft1 athletic beast like him that took care of his body should have been capable of that (the guy looked ripped in his 50s even, looked like he could eat young Shaq alive). not sure how legit, but read about him playing pickup games with Magic and other NBA stars in the 90s and even dominating at such advanced age. he was a freak like none other before or after him, if someone could play so long, it was him
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:30 pm    Post subject:

GOODRICH25 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
What do folks think about the parallel b/w age 32-36 Wilt and possibly age 33-35 LBJ? Could LBJ still be productive?

I know Wilt slowed down towards the end, and started being more of a passer/defender as opposed to scorer, but he still played nearly 44mpg and except 1 year, nearly every game.


i wasnt around for that era so obviously didnt witness Wilts dominance, but i have a theory from what ive seen/read that he saw Russell win multiple championships (on unfairly stacked teams tho) playing a certain way, so he and most others assumed thats the right way to play basketball, which is why he felt like he had to change his game. coaches played a role in convincing him as well im guessing (Bill Sharman was a former teammate of Russell). this could explain his sudden statistical drop in 2nd half of his career (playoff numbers 1st 6 years: 33ppg, 26.5rpg, 3apg, including 35/25/3 in his lone finals run; playoff numbers in his last 7 years: 17.5ppg, 23.5rpg, 5apg, including 22/29/9 and 15/21/3 in his 2 championship runs. made the finals another 3 times in this period as well)

the other thing is, Wilt was kinda soft from what i gather. heard him once say that he considers what Shaq is doing as murder and that he couldnt do that because he could literally hurt/injure people due to his brute strength. also read that he tried to not dunk and overpower players because he didnt want people to think he dominates just because hes physically superior, but because of his skills. and then you see him shoot those fadeaways and layups when he could have easily dunked and you get an idea what kind of person he was. as crazy as it sounds, you get the feeling he could have been even more dominant if he had that killer instinct like Jordan and Kobe. kinda scary really


I wouldn't call Wilt soft. He once threw down a dunk with such strength it hit the foot of an opponent and broke his toe. But Wilt was a gentle guy who was so much stronger than opponents that he supposedly was worried about hurting them.

I wouldn't say he slowed down in LA, as much as he changed the focus of his game from scoring to defense and rebounding. He was still going strong at age 36 (#4 in MVP voting) -- he left the Lakers to become a player-coach in the new ABA, but the Lakers sued him to prevent him from playing. It would be interesting to see how long he could have played at a strong level -- I have no reason to think Wilt couldn't have played until 40 or maybe later.


yes, gentle is the better term than soft. i couldnt remember it when writing the post

i think with the way he changed his playing style, he could have played well into his 40s even. a 7ft1 athletic beast like him that took care of his body should have been capable of that (the guy looked ripped in his 50s even, looked like he could eat young Shaq alive). not sure how legit, but read about him playing pickup games with Magic and other NBA stars in the 90s and even dominating at such advanced age. he was a freak like none other before or after him, if someone could play so long, it was him


When Wilt was 50, the Nets contacted his agent and asked if was interested in playing. Wilt turned it down but said it was realistic for him to still play. "It is realistic," Chamberlain said. "I work out with pro athletes all the time. I know what my body can do and what I can do."
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:15 pm    Post subject:

i would have loved to see that
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:00 pm    Post subject:

It's a shame that we don't have more footage of Wilt in his prime. We have the highlight reel stuff that Dantheman puts on his web site, and we have grainy footage from a game here and there. We have a decent amount of footage from his later years with the Lakers. But as is also the case with Babe Ruth, it's hard to get a real feel for what Wilt was like from the fragments.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:16 pm    Post subject:

I didn't see Wilt play since it was 15-20 years before i was born, but reading all these posts and other stuff about Wilt and knowing my NBA history, there are more parallels between Wilt and Lebron than just the years that they may both be Lakers. From what i read, Wilt's teams usually made it to at least the conference finals, and a bunch of times he lost in Game 7 to Boston by just a couple points. I also read someone that observers thought that Wilt had some kind of mental block that prevented him from winning that one big game. A writer, Doug Krikorian, said in a Roland Lazenby book about Laker history that Wilt was a choker. Makes me wonder about how much heart and competitiveness Wilt had, and maybe even how important winning titles was for him. He seemed like the kind of guy who didn't need to win a championship to be happy and content (much like Lebron).
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:07 am    Post subject:

Now that LBJ is here, interesting to compare LBJ/Wilt.

He joined the Lakers at the ripe age of 32 (after nearly 9 years with other teams). He averaged close to 46-47mpg during that time period. He played 5 more seasons with the Lakers until age 36. During that time, he accumulated some still-monster stats:

19.3ppg
19 rpg
44mpg

He was injured in 69-70 and only played 12 games, but the other 4 seasons: 81, 82, 82, and 82 games.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:10 am    Post subject:

Wilt was very skilled. His footwork was tremendous for a man his size. He was an underrated passer. Sure, he wasn't much of a "shooter". But the idea that he just got by on physical talent is inaccurate. He worked hard and trained hard. Developed his craft, including his shot blocking, by training with Vball folks.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:12 am    Post subject:

We donít have a Jerry West.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:12 am    Post subject:

Dumhead wrote:
Wilt was very skilled. His footwork was tremendous for a man his size. He was an underrated passer. Sure, he wasn't much of a "shooter". But the idea that he just got by on physical talent is inaccurate. He worked hard and trained hard. Developed his craft, including his shot blocking, by training with Vball folks.


Yeah. Looked like he was an early pioneer re: lifting and taking care of his body. Paid off well into his 30s. LBJ the same. Guy invests so much time/money in maintaining his body.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:13 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
We donít have a Jerry West.
True.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:14 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
We donít have a Jerry West.


Yet.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:15 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
We donít have a Jerry West.


Yet.
Also true. I think it is just around the corner.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:16 am    Post subject:

I fully expect one or more to be joining LBJ next year (likely just one): KL, Butler, Klay.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:16 am    Post subject:

P.K. wrote:
kevin61 wrote:
Wilt was a super human athlete, but he played in a different era. It's impossible to say how he'd rank against the centers of the last 40 years, other than to say, he'd be in the discussion for the very best.

Wilt was also a track athlete

"At Overbrook High School in Philly, he high jumped 6 feet, 6 inches, ran the 440 in 49.0 seconds and the 880 in 1:58.3, put the shot 53 feet, 4 inches, broad jumped 22 feet."

Can you think of any 7 footers that can do that?

He was truly amazing.

http://m.kusports.com/users/photos/2013/mar/08/250827/?templates=mobile

It's worth noting that Wilt's high school track career was in the early 1950's. Before the advent of the Fosbury Flop high jump technique that Dick Fosbury made famous in the 1968 0lympics. I was in grade school at the time, and we had guys trying to replicate the Flop during our PE classes track & field. The Fosbury Flop is pretty much the technique used today where the athlete jumps with his/her back towards the bar.
In Wilt's era there was a "No Diving" over the bar rule in high jumping - and the techniques used in that era were the scissors jump or a variation of a hurdle jump where your front leg went over the bar first. So, Wilt was essentially hurdling 6'6".

I mention this for the younger group that might look at 6'6" and think that's pretty low considering today's college record is 7' 9.75"

If the Fosbury Flop had existed (and been permitted) in Wilts era, you'd probably have seen that Wilt's record would be a lot higher considering his jumping ability and overall agility.


It is stuff like this that really makes me fascinated by Wilt. Such a supreme athlete. We judge the GOAT conversation by championships+skill/talent+era-dominance. And by that measure, Wilt falls short compared to Kareem and MJ. But man, if it is a question of just dominance and ability, Wilt is right up there.
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