Nurse vs Law enforcement (battle of Interpretation regarding consent law)
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governator
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:49 am    Post subject: Nurse vs Law enforcement (battle of Interpretation regarding consent law)

http://nypost.com/2017/09/01/nurse-arrested-after-refusing-blood-test-on-unconscious-patient/amp/

I'm in health care so my understanding is the nurse did the right thing:
1. You can't violate someone with a boood draw without their consent
2. Person who is unconscious can't give consent thus procedure only performed for life saving measure or under specific warrant order

Any legal expert or law enforcement want to weigh in?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:18 am    Post subject:

Both the cop and the police department are in trouble.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:33 am    Post subject:

Somehow cops will spin this around to be the fault of the nurse and hospital.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:38 am    Post subject:

Another case of a police officer arresting someone not for breaking the law, but for challenging their authority. What else is new, though?

Cue the posters that usually defend this type of stuff in 3...2...1...
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:57 am    Post subject:

The cop's video cam makes some good points, though
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:01 pm    Post subject:

This seems to be much uglier that a difference of opinion regarding consent laws for medical patients.

The blood was to be drawn from the victim of a crime who was injured when a suspect pursued by police crashed into his truck. The truck driver was badly burned and in a coma, yet the Police came to the hospital to draw blood from the victim without cause, consent or authority.

The truck driver was not the subject if a criminal investigation, and this evidence illegally obtained would not be useful criminally.

So what was this cop doing?

(My Speculation) If he could obtain the victim's blood, it could be tested to determine if the truck driver was under the influence of an illicit substance. And if he was, it could potentially limit the police's liability for contributing to the truck driver's injuries.

That's why this cop was trying to obtain the blood without a warrant.
That's why this cop was bullying the nurse.
That's why this cop reacted in such a ridiculous manner and arrested a person who was obeying the law.

They were fishing for dirt on the victim of a crime and were wiling to bully, manhandle and arrest anyone who got in their way.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:45 pm    Post subject:

If you're able to see the video, a second cop speaking to the handcuffed nurse sitting in the detective's car is even bolder. The second cop explains they should be able to engage in illegal conduct because there are civil remedies that can undo illegal acts later
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:51 pm    Post subject:

JerryMagicKobe wrote:
(My Speculation) If he could obtain the victim's blood, it could be tested to determine if the truck driver was under the influence of an illicit substance. And if he was, it could potentially limit the police's liability for contributing to the truck driver's injuries.

That's why this cop was trying to obtain the blood without a warrant.
That's why this cop was bullying the nurse.
That's why this cop reacted in such a ridiculous manner and arrested a person who was obeying the law.

They were fishing for dirt on the victim of a crime and were wiling to bully, manhandle and arrest anyone who got in their way.


If this is true, then the order probably came from higher up the food chain. If so, this is all going to disappear quickly behind a confidential settlement.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:23 am    Post subject:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/supreme-court-requires-warrants-for-some-but-not-all-drunk-driving-tests/2016/06/23/fa1033dc-395f-11e6-a254-2b336e293a3c_story.html?ncid=edlinkushpmg00000313&utm_term=.065db61b4764

The Supreme Court on Thursday said that police must obtain a warrant before requiring a suspected drunk driver to submit to a blood alcohol test.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:48 am    Post subject:

Here's the question I have.

If you believe you have a legal right to do or not do something, is it ok to defy a police officer?

I say it isn't, but, you see stuff like this and it's like ehhhhh.

The way this should have gone down is that nurse should have told the cop its against policy. If he continues, she should have allowed him to proceed and then filed a complaint.

The officer should then have been disciplined for not knowing the proper laws.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:54 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Here's the question I have.

If you believe you have a legal right to do or not do something, is it ok to defy a police officer?

I say it isn't, but, you see stuff like this and it's like ehhhhh.

The way this should have gone down is that nurse should have told the cop its against policy. If he continues, she should have allowed him to proceed and then filed a complaint.

The officer should then have been disciplined for not knowing the proper laws.


Hippocratic oath. Those in the medical profession have an obligation to their clients/patients. She was fully in the right to stop him from doing an illegal act. Had she not, this would be uglier, though we wouldn't hear about it.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:57 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Here's the question I have.

If you believe you have a legal right to do or not do something, is it ok to defy a police officer?

I say it isn't, but, you see stuff like this and it's like ehhhhh.

The way this should have gone down is that nurse should have told the cop its against policy. If he continues, she should have allowed him to proceed and then filed a complaint.

The officer should then have been disciplined for not knowing the proper laws.


As a medical provider, you can't draw blood without a consent, without a specific warrant or if it's not pertaining to saving life... it's consider an assault.
In this case, the nurse did explained to the officer that it is against policy and the officer wasn't being prevented to draw the blood himself (the nurse was not physically restraining the officer from doing it), the officer arrested the nurse for refusing to draw the blood for the officer

This officer is also from a blood draw unit? (didn't know that kind of unit existed) for a number of years... so what kind of discipline is appropriate? don't know
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:03 am    Post subject:

encina1 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Here's the question I have.

If you believe you have a legal right to do or not do something, is it ok to defy a police officer?

I say it isn't, but, you see stuff like this and it's like ehhhhh.

The way this should have gone down is that nurse should have told the cop its against policy. If he continues, she should have allowed him to proceed and then filed a complaint.

The officer should then have been disciplined for not knowing the proper laws.


Hippocratic oath. Those in the medical profession have an obligation to their clients/patients. She was fully in the right to stop him from doing an illegal act. Had she not, this would be uglier, though we wouldn't hear about it.


I don't agree as a matter of principal.

The interpretation of law, should be for a court to decide, not an independent citizen.

In this case, we can agree that she interpreted it right and he wrong but that is for a court to decide, ours are just opinions.

To cite you as an example... if I get pulled over for going 65 in a 45, but I am 100% sure I was in a 65 zone, do I have the right to not show my ID or pull over?

No. You pull over, get your ticket, and fight it in court and they will decide whether you were in fact, in violation of a vehicle code or not.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:04 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Here's the question I have.

If you believe you have a legal right to do or not do something, is it ok to defy a police officer?

I say it isn't, but, you see stuff like this and it's like ehhhhh.

The way this should have gone down is that nurse should have told the cop its against policy. If he continues, she should have allowed him to proceed and then filed a complaint.

The officer should then have been disciplined for not knowing the proper laws.


As a medical provider, you can't draw blood without a consent, without a specific warrant or if it's not pertaining to saving life... it's consider an assault.
In this case, the nurse did explained to the officer that it is against policy and the officer wasn't being prevented to draw the blood himself (the nurse was not physically restraining the officer from doing it), the officer arrested the nurse for refusing to draw the blood for the officer

This officer is also from a blood draw unit? (didn't know that kind of unit existed) for a number of years... so what kind of discipline is appropriate? don't know

Criminal charges against the police officer for battery
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:08 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Here's the question I have.

If you believe you have a legal right to do or not do something, is it ok to defy a police officer?

I say it isn't, but, you see stuff like this and it's like ehhhhh.

The way this should have gone down is that nurse should have told the cop its against policy. If he continues, she should have allowed him to proceed and then filed a complaint.

The officer should then have been disciplined for not knowing the proper laws.


As a medical provider, you can't draw blood without a consent, without a specific warrant or if it's not pertaining to saving life... it's consider an assault.
In this case, the nurse did explained to the officer that it is against policy and the officer wasn't being prevented to draw the blood himself (the nurse was not physically restraining the officer from doing it), the officer arrested the nurse for refusing to draw the blood for the officer

This officer is also from a blood draw unit? (didn't know that kind of unit existed) for a number of years... so what kind of discipline is appropriate? don't know


I get that. Which is why once she complied with the officer, she should have filed a complaint and the evidence should have been inadmissible in court. (And cop disciplined severely for not knowing the law).

My issue/concern, is the idea that anyone can interpret a law how they like and based on THEIR intrepretation, rightfully defy a police officer. Again, whether their interpretation was correct or not id for a court to decide.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:12 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
encina1 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Here's the question I have.

If you believe you have a legal right to do or not do something, is it ok to defy a police officer?

I say it isn't, but, you see stuff like this and it's like ehhhhh.

The way this should have gone down is that nurse should have told the cop its against policy. If he continues, she should have allowed him to proceed and then filed a complaint.

The officer should then have been disciplined for not knowing the proper laws.


Hippocratic oath. Those in the medical profession have an obligation to their clients/patients. She was fully in the right to stop him from doing an illegal act. Had she not, this would be uglier, though we wouldn't hear about it.


I don't agree as a matter of principal.

The interpretation of law, should be for a court to decide, not an independent citizen.

In this case, we can agree that she interpreted it right and he wrong but that is for a court to decide, ours are just opinions.

To cite you as an example... if I get pulled over for going 65 in a 45, but I am 100% sure I was in a 65 zone, do I have the right to not show my ID or pull over?

No. You pull over, get your ticket, and fight it in court and they will decide whether you were in fact, in violation of a vehicle code or not.


Your example makes no sense. You can think you are in a 65 zone, but that has nothing to do with this case. It is hospital policy to not draw blood from someone who does not or cannot give consent. More over, it is illegal to draw blood from someone who has not or cannot give consent. It is not just a simple case for the courts to decide. We don't go around committing illegal acts hoping that the courts will decide one way or the other, and we cannot, obviously, rely on the police to do the right thing. We as citizens obey laws and enforce laws. When we are obligated to as part of our profession and our specific job, then we must do so, as well. This was not just one rogue nurse getting in the way. This was a brave nurse standing up to a cop who would violate someone's rights to their own blood and their own body.

OK, but I will play along with your example. Let the courts decide? The Supreme Court already decided it was illegal

And no, we cannot keep breaking the law hoping other courts will keep deciding the same thing over and over again. It's been decided.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:32 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
governator wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Here's the question I have.

If you believe you have a legal right to do or not do something, is it ok to defy a police officer?

I say it isn't, but, you see stuff like this and it's like ehhhhh.

The way this should have gone down is that nurse should have told the cop its against policy. If he continues, she should have allowed him to proceed and then filed a complaint.

The officer should then have been disciplined for not knowing the proper laws.


As a medical provider, you can't draw blood without a consent, without a specific warrant or if it's not pertaining to saving life... it's consider an assault.
In this case, the nurse did explained to the officer that it is against policy and the officer wasn't being prevented to draw the blood himself (the nurse was not physically restraining the officer from doing it), the officer arrested the nurse for refusing to draw the blood for the officer

This officer is also from a blood draw unit? (didn't know that kind of unit existed) for a number of years... so what kind of discipline is appropriate? don't know


I get that. Which is why once she complied with the officer, she should have filed a complaint and the evidence should have been inadmissible in court. (And cop disciplined severely for not knowing the law).

My issue/concern, is the idea that anyone can interpret a law how they like and based on THEIR intrepretation, rightfully defy a police officer. Again, whether their interpretation was correct or not id for a court to decide.


I don't care if their a police officer or not I'm not going to break the law/assault someone for them.
The Milgram experiment on obedience to authority figures found that that a very high proportion of people were prepared to obey, albeit unwillingly, even if it caused serious injury and distress to other people.

What if the cop told you to shoot your friend? Would you do it and let the courts decide?
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Last edited by Lucky_Shot on Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:37 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
governator wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Here's the question I have.

If you believe you have a legal right to do or not do something, is it ok to defy a police officer?

I say it isn't, but, you see stuff like this and it's like ehhhhh.

The way this should have gone down is that nurse should have told the cop its against policy. If he continues, she should have allowed him to proceed and then filed a complaint.

The officer should then have been disciplined for not knowing the proper laws.


As a medical provider, you can't draw blood without a consent, without a specific warrant or if it's not pertaining to saving life... it's consider an assault.
In this case, the nurse did explained to the officer that it is against policy and the officer wasn't being prevented to draw the blood himself (the nurse was not physically restraining the officer from doing it), the officer arrested the nurse for refusing to draw the blood for the officer

This officer is also from a blood draw unit? (didn't know that kind of unit existed) for a number of years... so what kind of discipline is appropriate? don't know


I get that. Which is why once she complied with the officer, she should have filed a complaint and the evidence should have been inadmissible in court. (And cop disciplined severely for not knowing the law).

My issue/concern, is the idea that anyone can interpret a law how they like and based on THEIR intrepretation, rightfully defy a police officer. Again, whether their interpretation was correct or not id for a court to decide.


it's not THEIR or the nurse's interpretation, this has been interpreted by the supreme court (I posted the link couple post prior)
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:48 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
governator wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Here's the question I have.

If you believe you have a legal right to do or not do something, is it ok to defy a police officer?

I say it isn't, but, you see stuff like this and it's like ehhhhh.

The way this should have gone down is that nurse should have told the cop its against policy. If he continues, she should have allowed him to proceed and then filed a complaint.

The officer should then have been disciplined for not knowing the proper laws.


As a medical provider, you can't draw blood without a consent, without a specific warrant or if it's not pertaining to saving life... it's consider an assault.
In this case, the nurse did explained to the officer that it is against policy and the officer wasn't being prevented to draw the blood himself (the nurse was not physically restraining the officer from doing it), the officer arrested the nurse for refusing to draw the blood for the officer

This officer is also from a blood draw unit? (didn't know that kind of unit existed) for a number of years... so what kind of discipline is appropriate? don't know


I get that. Which is why once she complied with the officer, she should have filed a complaint and the evidence should have been inadmissible in court. (And cop disciplined severely for not knowing the law).

My issue/concern, is the idea that anyone can interpret a law how they like and based on THEIR intrepretation, rightfully defy a police officer. Again, whether their interpretation was correct or not id for a court to decide.


it's not THEIR or the nurse's interpretation, this has been interpreted by the supreme court (I posted the link couple post prior)


Did the supreme court hand down their interpretation before or after the cop assaulted her? I'm assuming after.

If so, then it's kind of irrelevant.

Who should be the decision maker as to whether or not your constitutional rights were violated? An individual, or a court?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:49 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
governator wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
governator wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Here's the question I have.

If you believe you have a legal right to do or not do something, is it ok to defy a police officer?

I say it isn't, but, you see stuff like this and it's like ehhhhh.

The way this should have gone down is that nurse should have told the cop its against policy. If he continues, she should have allowed him to proceed and then filed a complaint.

The officer should then have been disciplined for not knowing the proper laws.


As a medical provider, you can't draw blood without a consent, without a specific warrant or if it's not pertaining to saving life... it's consider an assault.
In this case, the nurse did explained to the officer that it is against policy and the officer wasn't being prevented to draw the blood himself (the nurse was not physically restraining the officer from doing it), the officer arrested the nurse for refusing to draw the blood for the officer

This officer is also from a blood draw unit? (didn't know that kind of unit existed) for a number of years... so what kind of discipline is appropriate? don't know


I get that. Which is why once she complied with the officer, she should have filed a complaint and the evidence should have been inadmissible in court. (And cop disciplined severely for not knowing the law).

My issue/concern, is the idea that anyone can interpret a law how they like and based on THEIR intrepretation, rightfully defy a police officer. Again, whether their interpretation was correct or not id for a court to decide.


it's not THEIR or the nurse's interpretation, this has been interpreted by the supreme court (I posted the link couple post prior)


Did the supreme court hand down their interpretation before or after the cop assaulted her? I'm assuming after.

If so, then it's kind of irrelevant.

Who should be the decision maker as to whether or not your constitutional rights were violated? An individual, or a court?


it was rendered in 2016
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:53 am    Post subject:

I guess what I am saying is, at any time of a confrontation with police, where you and the officer do not agree with the interpretation of a law, the proper course of action should be to comply and if you feel you were wronged, or they did something wrong, file a compliant.

It's dangerous to take the position that if you don't agree wth what a cop is telling you then just do what you want because you get to decide if he/she is right or wrong.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:57 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
I guess what I am saying is, at any time of a confrontation with police, where you and the officer do not agree with the interpretation of a law, the proper course of action should be to comply and if you feel you were wronged, or they did something wrong, file a compliant.

It's dangerous to take the position that if you don't agree wth what a cop is telling you then just do what you want because you get to decide if he/she is right or wrong.


Just to be clear, we are talking about assaulting a person in this case (via venipuncture blood draw)...
If you know the law, as seen in the video the nurse is explaining verbatim the agreement between the hospital and the Utah police from a printed document with her supervisor also listening on the phone to double check. You KNOW that you will be commiting assault for drawing blood for the officer, you still advocating:
"at any time of a confrontation with police, where you and the officer do not agree with the interpretation of a law, the proper course of action should be to comply and if you feel you were wronged, or they did something wrong, file a compliant."
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:59 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
governator wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
governator wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Here's the question I have.

If you believe you have a legal right to do or not do something, is it ok to defy a police officer?

I say it isn't, but, you see stuff like this and it's like ehhhhh.

The way this should have gone down is that nurse should have told the cop its against policy. If he continues, she should have allowed him to proceed and then filed a complaint.

The officer should then have been disciplined for not knowing the proper laws.


As a medical provider, you can't draw blood without a consent, without a specific warrant or if it's not pertaining to saving life... it's consider an assault.
In this case, the nurse did explained to the officer that it is against policy and the officer wasn't being prevented to draw the blood himself (the nurse was not physically restraining the officer from doing it), the officer arrested the nurse for refusing to draw the blood for the officer

This officer is also from a blood draw unit? (didn't know that kind of unit existed) for a number of years... so what kind of discipline is appropriate? don't know


I get that. Which is why once she complied with the officer, she should have filed a complaint and the evidence should have been inadmissible in court. (And cop disciplined severely for not knowing the law).

My issue/concern, is the idea that anyone can interpret a law how they like and based on THEIR intrepretation, rightfully defy a police officer. Again, whether their interpretation was correct or not id for a court to decide.


it's not THEIR or the nurse's interpretation, this has been interpreted by the supreme court (I posted the link couple post prior)


Did the supreme court hand down their interpretation before or after the cop assaulted her? I'm assuming after.

If so, then it's kind of irrelevant.

Who should be the decision maker as to whether or not your constitutional rights were violated? An individual, or a court?


it was rendered in 2016


They decided that she was right and the officer was wrong a year before the incident? I think what you're saying is that the law was rendered then. Now, whether the police officer was acting within that law, who should make that call?

Ok. Constitution was rendered over 200 years ago. If you believe your constitutional right is being violated by the police's actions, whether you are right or wrong, what do you think the proper course of action should be?

I might feel a cop is violating thr 4th amendment so what should I do in that case?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:00 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
I guess what I am saying is, at any time of a confrontation with police, where you and the officer do not agree with the interpretation of a law, the proper course of action should be to comply and if you feel you were wronged, or they did something wrong, file a compliant.

It's dangerous to take the position that if you don't agree with what a cop is telling you then just do what you want because you get to decide if he/she is right or wrong.


I couldn't disagree with you more. It's like your telling everyone to be lemmings and not think for themselves.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:04 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
I guess what I am saying is, at any time of a confrontation with police, where you and the officer do not agree with the interpretation of a law, the proper course of action should be to comply and if you feel you were wronged, or they did something wrong, file a compliant.

It's dangerous to take the position that if you don't agree wth what a cop is telling you then just do what you want because you get to decide if he/she is right or wrong.


Just to be clear, we are talking about assaulting a person in this case (via venipuncture blood draw)...
If you know the law, as seen in the video the nurse is explaining verbatim the agreement between the hospital and the Utah police from a printed document with her supervisor also listening on the phone to double check. You KNOW that you will be commiting assault for drawing blood for the officer, you still advocating:
"at any time of a confrontation with police, where you and the officer do not agree with the interpretation of a law, the proper course of action should be to comply and if you feel you were wronged, or they did something wrong, file a compliant."


I understand that. The problen I have is we are justifying her actions based on information we know after the fact.

The determination of whether the police or nurse was right should be made by whom? The nurse?
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