Nurse vs Law enforcement (battle of Interpretation regarding consent law)
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:07 am    Post subject:

Lucky_Shot wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
I guess what I am saying is, at any time of a confrontation with police, where you and the officer do not agree with the interpretation of a law, the proper course of action should be to comply and if you feel you were wronged, or they did something wrong, file a compliant.

It's dangerous to take the position that if you don't agree with what a cop is telling you then just do what you want because you get to decide if he/she is right or wrong.


I couldn't disagree with you more. It's like your telling everyone to be lemmings and not think for themselves.


No. Any time an officer tells you to do something, step away from a vehicle, open your front door, and so on, the proper course of action should be to comply.

If, after complying, you think for yourself and decide the officer was in the wrong, you should definitely fight it. 100%. But if get to individually decide whether or not we are being wronged, then, no one would ever be wrong or in violation of a law.

If an officer wants to arrest a person for a crime, but you feel doing so violates the 4th amendment of the constitutiom, what should the suspect do? Run? Fight? Kill? Comply?

If you don't think complying is right, then you're saying its ok for any person to flee the police IF they think they weren't committing a crime.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:18 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Lucky_Shot wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
I guess what I am saying is, at any time of a confrontation with police, where you and the officer do not agree with the interpretation of a law, the proper course of action should be to comply and if you feel you were wronged, or they did something wrong, file a compliant.

It's dangerous to take the position that if you don't agree with what a cop is telling you then just do what you want because you get to decide if he/she is right or wrong.


I couldn't disagree with you more. It's like your telling everyone to be lemmings and not think for themselves.


No. Any time an officer tells you to do something, step away from a vehicle, open your front door, and so on, the proper course of action should be to comply.

If, after complying, you think for yourself and decide the officer was in the wrong, you should definitely fight it. 100%. But if get to individually decide whether or not we are being wronged, then, no one would ever be wrong or in violation of a law.

If an officer wants to arrest a person for a crime, but you feel doing so violates the 4th amendment of the constitutiom, what should the suspect do? Run? Fight? Kill? Comply?

If you don't think complying is right, then you're saying its ok for any person to flee the police IF they think they weren't committing a crime.


I'm not sure why you would have to flee but yes If a person thinks or better yet knows like the nurse in this case, it's against the law or just plain wrong. I'm saying a person shouldn't comply with the cops.

I don't know if this is what your supposed to do but it's what I would do.
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Last edited by Lucky_Shot on Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:28 am    Post subject:

Lucky_Shot wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Lucky_Shot wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
I guess what I am saying is, at any time of a confrontation with police, where you and the officer do not agree with the interpretation of a law, the proper course of action should be to comply and if you feel you were wronged, or they did something wrong, file a compliant.

It's dangerous to take the position that if you don't agree with what a cop is telling you then just do what you want because you get to decide if he/she is right or wrong.


I couldn't disagree with you more. It's like your telling everyone to be lemmings and not think for themselves.


No. Any time an officer tells you to do something, step away from a vehicle, open your front door, and so on, the proper course of action should be to comply.

If, after complying, you think for yourself and decide the officer was in the wrong, you should definitely fight it. 100%. But if get to individually decide whether or not we are being wronged, then, no one would ever be wrong or in violation of a law.

If an officer wants to arrest a person for a crime, but you feel doing so violates the 4th amendment of the constitutiom, what should the suspect do? Run? Fight? Kill? Comply?

If you don't think complying is right, then you're saying its ok for any person to flee the police IF they think they weren't committing a crime.


I'm not sure why you would have to flee but yes If a person thinks or better yet knows like the nurse in this case, it's against the law. I'm saying a person shouldn't comply with the cops.

I don't know if this is what your supposed to do but it's what I would do.


Interesting. Let me try this another way.

You're driving. Police kicks his siren on behind you. You don't think you've done anything wrong. Do you:

Pull to the right?
Accelerate?
Slam on your brakes?
Just keep driving as if there is no siren behind you?


Last edited by ringfinger on Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:34 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Lucky_Shot wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Lucky_Shot wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
I guess what I am saying is, at any time of a confrontation with police, where you and the officer do not agree with the interpretation of a law, the proper course of action should be to comply and if you feel you were wronged, or they did something wrong, file a compliant.

It's dangerous to take the position that if you don't agree with what a cop is telling you then just do what you want because you get to decide if he/she is right or wrong.


I couldn't disagree with you more. It's like your telling everyone to be lemmings and not think for themselves.


No. Any time an officer tells you to do something, step away from a vehicle, open your front door, and so on, the proper course of action should be to comply.

If, after complying, you think for yourself and decide the officer was in the wrong, you should definitely fight it. 100%. But if get to individually decide whether or not we are being wronged, then, no one would ever be wrong or in violation of a law.

If an officer wants to arrest a person for a crime, but you feel doing so violates the 4th amendment of the constitutiom, what should the suspect do? Run? Fight? Kill? Comply?

If you don't think complying is right, then you're saying its ok for any person to flee the police IF they think they weren't committing a crime.


I'm not sure why you would have to flee but yes If a person thinks or better yet knows like the nurse in this case, it's against the law. I'm saying a person shouldn't comply with the cops.

I don't know if this is what your supposed to do but it's what I would do.


Interesting. Would you say that if a police officer says to you "you're under arrest for [crime], put your hands behind your back." And if you think you did not break the law in this case ... what would you do?

Punch the cop? Run?

And do you think this is acceptable for all persons who thinks they are innocent?


It depends on whats happening. If he going handcuff me and then shoot me in the back, I wouldn't do what he said.

If he's only taking me to jail so I can eventually talked to a judge I would comply.

But in this situation he is not ordering me to harm some else unlike what the cop told the nurse to do.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:38 am    Post subject:

^ the act itself isn't assault, at least not according to the law.

If the proper procedures and actions are taken care of, then it wouldnt be assault at all.

Now, my question to you is -- who is the arbiter, at the time of police instruction, as to whether his instructions are lawful or not?

Does the nurse get to decide? Because if so, then, a nurse could never be arrested if they simply said they didn't believe a law was broken.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject:

All I can say is that I will always try to do what I think is right regardless of the law.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:50 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Here's the question I have.

If you believe you have a legal right to do or not do something, is it ok to defy a police officer?

I say it isn't, but, you see stuff like this and it's like ehhhhh.

The way this should have gone down is that nurse should have told the cop its against policy. If he continues, she should have allowed him to proceed and then filed a complaint.

The officer should then have been disciplined for not knowing the proper laws.


and right on cue.

Officers are there to enforce the law, they are not the (bleep) law nor are they above the law. so yes, it is ok to defy a police officer if they are in the wrong. gtfo here with this bs.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:36 am    Post subject:

sickside323 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Here's the question I have.

If you believe you have a legal right to do or not do something, is it ok to defy a police officer?

I say it isn't, but, you see stuff like this and it's like ehhhhh.

The way this should have gone down is that nurse should have told the cop its against policy. If he continues, she should have allowed him to proceed and then filed a complaint.

The officer should then have been disciplined for not knowing the proper laws.


and right on cue.

Officers are there to enforce the law, they are not the (bleep) law nor are they above the law. so yes, it is ok to defy a police officer if they are in the wrong. (bleep) here with this bs.


You're righy, they are there to enforce the law. But who ultimately decides whethe or not the law was properly enforced?

Not the suspect. Not a bystandet or witness. Not the officer.

The courts.

The determination of whether a law was broken can only occur after the law is actually broken. A nurse doesn't get to decide that. Neither does the cop.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:41 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
I guess what I am saying is, at any time of a confrontation with police, where you and the officer do not agree with the interpretation of a law, the proper course of action should be to comply and if you feel you were wronged, or they did something wrong, file a compliant.

It's dangerous to take the position that if you don't agree wth what a cop is telling you then just do what you want because you get to decide if he/she is right or wrong.

Eff. Off.

If a police officer ordered you to punch someone, would you do it and then just wait to file a complaint later? This was tantamount to that. The nurse had an obligation to protect her patient and sticking someone with needles without their permission is an obvious no no.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:46 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
encina1 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Here's the question I have.

If you believe you have a legal right to do or not do something, is it ok to defy a police officer?

I say it isn't, but, you see stuff like this and it's like ehhhhh.

The way this should have gone down is that nurse should have told the cop its against policy. If he continues, she should have allowed him to proceed and then filed a complaint.

The officer should then have been disciplined for not knowing the proper laws.


Hippocratic oath. Those in the medical profession have an obligation to their clients/patients. She was fully in the right to stop him from doing an illegal act. Had she not, this would be uglier, though we wouldn't hear about it.


I don't agree as a matter of principal.

The interpretation of law, should be for a court to decide, not an independent citizen.

In this case, we can agree that she interpreted it right and he wrong but that is for a court to decide, ours are just opinions.

To cite you as an example... if I get pulled over for going 65 in a 45, but I am 100% sure I was in a 65 zone, do I have the right to not show my ID or pull over?

No. You pull over, get your ticket, and fight it in court and they will decide whether you were in fact, in violation of a vehicle code or not.


The medical center and police had an agreement, the cop was ignorant about that. The police don't wield ultimate power. If I am an incident commander at a hazardous materials emergency site, I am in charge. I tell the police what to do. There have been numerous times the cops were arrested for not knowing the law in situations like that. In this case, the officer was operating from a point of ignorance while the nurse understood the process. She was right in refusing and not violating policy.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:46 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
sickside323 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Here's the question I have.

If you believe you have a legal right to do or not do something, is it ok to defy a police officer?

I say it isn't, but, you see stuff like this and it's like ehhhhh.

The way this should have gone down is that nurse should have told the cop its against policy. If he continues, she should have allowed him to proceed and then filed a complaint.

The officer should then have been disciplined for not knowing the proper laws.


and right on cue.

Officers are there to enforce the law, they are not the (bleep) law nor are they above the law. so yes, it is ok to defy a police officer if they are in the wrong. (bleep) here with this bs.


You're righy, they are there to enforce the law. But who ultimately decides whethe or not the law was properly enforced?

Not the suspect. Not a bystandet or witness. Not the officer.

The courts.

The determination of whether a law was broken can only occur after the law is actually broken. A nurse doesn't get to decide that. Neither does the cop.



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:03 am    Post subject:

mhan00 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
I guess what I am saying is, at any time of a confrontation with police, where you and the officer do not agree with the interpretation of a law, the proper course of action should be to comply and if you feel you were wronged, or they did something wrong, file a compliant.

It's dangerous to take the position that if you don't agree wth what a cop is telling you then just do what you want because you get to decide if he/she is right or wrong.

Eff. Off.

If a police officer ordered you to punch someone, would you do it and then just wait to file a complaint later? This was tantamount to that. The nurse had an obligation to protect her patient and sticking someone with needles without their permission is an obvious no no.


Eff off? Because of a difference of opinion? Nice.

And no. I probably wouldn't. Unless that someone was you, then I would. =)

I don't disagree it was an obvious no-no. That's never been in contention. My "issue" is more around what shall happen if a police officer and a person to which he is ordering instructions, do not agree on whether said instructions, are appropriate?

Is the person right to defy the orders so long as it is later established that the person was not guilty or the instructions were warranted? Did OJ correctly evade police since he was evenyially determined to be not guilty of the crime to which he was accused?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:04 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
encina1 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Here's the question I have.

If you believe you have a legal right to do or not do something, is it ok to defy a police officer?

I say it isn't, but, you see stuff like this and it's like ehhhhh.

The way this should have gone down is that nurse should have told the cop its against policy. If he continues, she should have allowed him to proceed and then filed a complaint.

The officer should then have been disciplined for not knowing the proper laws.


Hippocratic oath. Those in the medical profession have an obligation to their clients/patients. She was fully in the right to stop him from doing an illegal act. Had she not, this would be uglier, though we wouldn't hear about it.


I don't agree as a matter of principal.

The interpretation of law, should be for a court to decide, not an independent citizen.

In this case, we can agree that she interpreted it right and he wrong but that is for a court to decide, ours are just opinions.

To cite you as an example... if I get pulled over for going 65 in a 45, but I am 100% sure I was in a 65 zone, do I have the right to not show my ID or pull over?

No. You pull over, get your ticket, and fight it in court and they will decide whether you were in fact, in violation of a vehicle code or not.


The medical center and police had an agreement, the cop was ignorant about that. The police don't wield ultimate power. If I am an incident commander at a hazardous materials emergency site, I am in charge. I tell the police what to do. There have been numerous times the cops were arrested for not knowing the law in situations like that. In this case, the officer was operating from a point of ignorance while the nurse understood the process. She was right in refusing and not violating policy.


Even if they had a warrant? Police does ANYTHING you tell them to do? Spin around, hop on one foot, etc?

Or as it pertains to hazard waste only?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:22 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
mhan00 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
I guess what I am saying is, at any time of a confrontation with police, where you and the officer do not agree with the interpretation of a law, the proper course of action should be to comply and if you feel you were wronged, or they did something wrong, file a compliant.

It's dangerous to take the position that if you don't agree wth what a cop is telling you then just do what you want because you get to decide if he/she is right or wrong.

Eff. Off.

If a police officer ordered you to punch someone, would you do it and then just wait to file a complaint later? This was tantamount to that. The nurse had an obligation to protect her patient and sticking someone with needles without their permission is an obvious no no.


Eff off? Because of a difference of opinion? Nice.

And no. I probably wouldn't. Unless that someone was you, then I would. =)

I don't disagree it was an obvious no-no. That's never been in contention. My "issue" is more around what shall happen if a police officer and a person to which he is ordering instructions, do not agree on whether said instructions, are appropriate?

Is the person right to defy the orders so long as it is later established that the person was not guilty or the instructions were warranted? Did OJ correctly evade police since he was evenyially determined to be not guilty of the crime to which he was accused?


So If a cop told you to punch someone you wouldn't do it...... THANK YOU
but would you draw the person's blood for the cop? If you say yes I'm so glad you're not a nurse.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:32 am    Post subject:

Lucky_Shot wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
mhan00 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
I guess what I am saying is, at any time of a confrontation with police, where you and the officer do not agree with the interpretation of a law, the proper course of action should be to comply and if you feel you were wronged, or they did something wrong, file a compliant.

It's dangerous to take the position that if you don't agree wth what a cop is telling you then just do what you want because you get to decide if he/she is right or wrong.

Eff. Off.

If a police officer ordered you to punch someone, would you do it and then just wait to file a complaint later? This was tantamount to that. The nurse had an obligation to protect her patient and sticking someone with needles without their permission is an obvious no no.


Eff off? Because of a difference of opinion? Nice.

And no. I probably wouldn't. Unless that someone was you, then I would. =)

I don't disagree it was an obvious no-no. That's never been in contention. My "issue" is more around what shall happen if a police officer and a person to which he is ordering instructions, do not agree on whether said instructions, are appropriate?

Is the person right to defy the orders so long as it is later established that the person was not guilty or the instructions were warranted? Did OJ correctly evade police since he was evenyially determined to be not guilty of the crime to which he was accused?


So If a cop told you to punch someone you wouldn't do it...... THANK YOU
but would you draw the person blood for the cop? If you say yes I'm so glad you're not a nurse.


I guess I see those two things differently. It's not uncommon or unlawful for a cop to ask for blood, it was a matter of interpretation of policy.

Just like if you are pulled over and asked to do a breathalyzer, it can be lawfully obtained or unlawfully obtained.

The request itself wasn't unusual, it was a matter of whether it was lawful or not.

Me? I would tell the cop, on camera, that I believed it was against policy. If he persisted, I would comply. Afterwards, I would file a compliant if I felt I was right about it being against policy.

And in this case, I would be right. He would be wrong. And he should face disciplinary action and the evidence should be tossed out.

That's how I think it *should* have gone when a cop and a person don't agree on a policy or law. Sometimes, people like the nurse are right. Sometimes, they are wrong. Sometimes, the cop is right. Sometimes, they are wrong. That's why there are courts and we have outlets to pursue to be certain.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:56 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Lucky_Shot wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
mhan00 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
I guess what I am saying is, at any time of a confrontation with police, where you and the officer do not agree with the interpretation of a law, the proper course of action should be to comply and if you feel you were wronged, or they did something wrong, file a compliant.

It's dangerous to take the position that if you don't agree wth what a cop is telling you then just do what you want because you get to decide if he/she is right or wrong.

Eff. Off.

If a police officer ordered you to punch someone, would you do it and then just wait to file a complaint later? This was tantamount to that. The nurse had an obligation to protect her patient and sticking someone with needles without their permission is an obvious no no.


Eff off? Because of a difference of opinion? Nice.

And no. I probably wouldn't. Unless that someone was you, then I would. =)

I don't disagree it was an obvious no-no. That's never been in contention. My "issue" is more around what shall happen if a police officer and a person to which he is ordering instructions, do not agree on whether said instructions, are appropriate?

Is the person right to defy the orders so long as it is later established that the person was not guilty or the instructions were warranted? Did OJ correctly evade police since he was evenyially determined to be not guilty of the crime to which he was accused?


So If a cop told you to punch someone you wouldn't do it...... THANK YOU
but would you draw the person blood for the cop? If you say yes I'm so glad you're not a nurse.


I guess I see those two things differently. It's not uncommon or unlawful for a cop to ask for blood, it was a matter of interpretation of policy.

Just like if you are pulled over and asked to do a breathalyzer, it can be lawfully obtained or unlawfully obtained.

The request itself wasn't unusual, it was a matter of whether it was lawful or not.

Me? I would tell the cop, on camera, that I believed it was against policy. If he persisted, I would comply. Afterwards, I would file a compliant if I felt I was right about it being against policy.

And in this case, I would be right. He would be wrong. And he should face disciplinary action and the evidence should be tossed out.

That's how I think it *should* have gone when a cop and a person don't agree on a policy or law. Sometimes, people like the nurse are right. Sometimes, they are wrong. Sometimes, the cop is right. Sometimes, they are wrong. That's why there are courts and we have outlets to pursue to be certain.


I'm pretty sure you would lose your nursing license after complying with the cop. I don't understand why you wouldn't tell the cop to sit and spin. Cops aren't gods and telling one of them no isn't that big of a deal.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:05 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
sickside323 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Here's the question I have.

If you believe you have a legal right to do or not do something, is it ok to defy a police officer?

I say it isn't, but, you see stuff like this and it's like ehhhhh.

The way this should have gone down is that nurse should have told the cop its against policy. If he continues, she should have allowed him to proceed and then filed a complaint.

The officer should then have been disciplined for not knowing the proper laws.




and right on cue.

Officers are there to enforce the law, they are not the (bleep) law nor are they above the law. so yes, it is ok to defy a police officer if they are in the wrong. (bleep) here with this bs.


You're righy, they are there to enforce the law. But who ultimately decides whethe or not the law was properly enforced?

Not the suspect. Not a bystandet or witness. Not the officer.

The courts.

The determination of whether a law was broken can only occur after the law is actually broken. A nurse doesn't get to decide that. Neither does the cop.


got it.

everyone, listen here:

you see an old lady being robbed? don't intervene as your interpretation of the law regarding this matter may be different from the suspect.

baby being kidnapped? let it happen, interpretations may differ.

rape, murder, etc...dont ever intervene, just let it all happen and let the courts decide after the fact!
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:12 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
You're righy, they are there to enforce the law. But who ultimately decides whethe or not the law was properly enforced?

Not the suspect. Not a bystandet or witness. Not the officer.

The courts.

The determination of whether a law was broken can only occur after the law is actually broken. A nurse doesn't get to decide that. Neither does the cop.


I have to throw the BS flag on you. Who decides? A neutral magistrate. That's who has the authority to issue a warrant, not some gung ho police officer. If the police come to your door and demand to enter, you have every right to tell them to go away. Likewise, the nurse has ever right, and probably an ethical obligation, to assert the rights of the patient.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:18 pm    Post subject:

Lucky_Shot wrote:
i'm pretty sure you would lose your nursing license after complying with the cop. I don't understand why you wouldn't tell the cop to sit and spin. Cops aren't gods and telling one of them no isn't that big of a deal.


No, you wouldn't lose your nursing license in that situation.

Telling a cop to sit and spin isn't necessary.

You're right, cops aren't gods, but generally speaking, it's my belief that you give them the benefit of the doubt and use the court system (or the media) to right a wrong.

If I get the siren, I pull over. I don't tell the officer to sit and spin and drive off if I think he is wrong about my vehicle speed or other moving violation. If I think he is wrong, I will let the court decide that.

If I see one detaining someone and I think it is a bit rough, I will record it with my phone and report it. I would not take a baseball bat or other item out of my car and beat him with it. Call me crazy.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:25 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
You're righy, they are there to enforce the law. But who ultimately decides whethe or not the law was properly enforced?

Not the suspect. Not a bystandet or witness. Not the officer.

The courts.

The determination of whether a law was broken can only occur after the law is actually broken. A nurse doesn't get to decide that. Neither does the cop.


I have to throw the BS flag on you. Who decides? A neutral magistrate. That's who has the authority to issue a warrant, not some gung ho police officer. If the police come to your door and demand to enter, you have every right to tell them to go away. Likewise, the nurse has ever right, and probably an ethical obligation, to assert the rights of the patient.


What if the police come to your door with a warrant and you don't agree the warrant was lawfully obtained? What should you do? Shoot the cop? Run? Spit in his face? Hold the door closed with both hands and yell no?

The two were at odds on what the policy was. The cop called his supervisor who told him to arrest her if she didn't comply. She called her supervisor who told the cop not to move forward.

They were at an impasse on what was legally right. This happens every day. You were speeding, no I was not. Sometimes the officer was right. Sometimes the other person was right. In the moment, IMO, the final arbiter is the cop, not the individual.

And if he court later finds he was wrong, and egregiously so, he should be disciplined if not fired since it is his job to interpet the law correctly.


Last edited by ringfinger on Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lucky_Shot
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:26 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Lucky_Shot wrote:
i'm pretty sure you would lose your nursing license after complying with the cop. I don't understand why you wouldn't tell the cop to sit and spin. Cops aren't gods and telling one of them no isn't that big of a deal.


No, you wouldn't lose your nursing license in that situation.

Telling a cop to sit and spin isn't necessary.

You're right, cops aren't gods, but generally speaking, it's my belief that you give them the benefit of the doubt and use the court system (or the media) to right a wrong.

If I get the siren, I pull over. I don't tell the officer to sit and spin and drive off if I think he is wrong about my vehicle speed or other moving violation. If I think he is wrong, I will let the court decide that.

If I see one detaining someone and I think it is a bit rough, I will record it with my phone and report it. I would not take a baseball bat or other item out of my car and beat him with it. Call me crazy.


You always say let the courts decide why can't you make a decision for yourself.
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Last edited by Lucky_Shot on Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:31 pm; edited 2 times in total
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:28 pm    Post subject:

Lucky_Shot wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Lucky_Shot wrote:
i'm pretty sure you would lose your nursing license after complying with the cop. I don't understand why you wouldn't tell the cop to sit and spin. Cops aren't gods and telling one of them no isn't that big of a deal.


No, you wouldn't lose your nursing license in that situation.

Telling a cop to sit and spin isn't necessary.

You're right, cops aren't gods, but generally speaking, it's my belief that you give them the benefit of the doubt and use the court system (or the media) to right a wrong.

If I get the siren, I pull over. I don't tell the officer to sit and spin and drive off if I think he is wrong about my vehicle speed or other moving violation. If I think he is wrong, I will let the court decide that.

If I see one detaining someone and I think it is a bit rough, I will record it with my phone and report it. I would not take a baseball bat or other item out of my car and beat him with it. Call me crazy.


You always say let the courts decide why can't you make a decision for youself


Because if that was the way it was, no one would ever be arrested.

"I am innocent".

"Ok."
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Lucky_Shot
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:31 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Lucky_Shot wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Lucky_Shot wrote:
i'm pretty sure you would lose your nursing license after complying with the cop. I don't understand why you wouldn't tell the cop to sit and spin. Cops aren't gods and telling one of them no isn't that big of a deal.


No, you wouldn't lose your nursing license in that situation.

Telling a cop to sit and spin isn't necessary.

You're right, cops aren't gods, but generally speaking, it's my belief that you give them the benefit of the doubt and use the court system (or the media) to right a wrong.

If I get the siren, I pull over. I don't tell the officer to sit and spin and drive off if I think he is wrong about my vehicle speed or other moving violation. If I think he is wrong, I will let the court decide that.

If I see one detaining someone and I think it is a bit rough, I will record it with my phone and report it. I would not take a baseball bat or other item out of my car and beat him with it. Call me crazy.


You always say let the courts decide why can't you make a decision for youself


Because if that was the way it was, no one would ever be arrested.

"I am innocent".

"Ok."


The way you choose to live life on autopilot, not use any critical thinking and only blindly obey scares me.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:38 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
What if the police come to your door with a warrant and you don't agree the warrant was lawfully obtained? What should you do? Shoot the cop? Run? Spit in his face? Hold the door closed with both hands and yell no?

The two were at odds on what the policy was. The cop called his supervisor who told him to arrest her if she didn't comply. She called her supervisor who told the cop not to move forward.

They were at an impasse on what was legally right. This happens every day. You were speeding, no I was not. Sometimes the officer was right. Sometimes the other person was right. In the moment, IMO, the final arbiter is the cop, not the individual.

And if he court later finds he was wrong, and egregiously so, he should be disciplined if not fired since it is his job to interpet the law correctly.


Bull. I understand that you love to be the contrarian on stuff like this, but you are just plain wrong. You need to suck it up and move on to something else.

1. This has absolutely nothing to do with physically resisting a cop. That's just a lame attempt on your part to come up with an analogy. If the cops kick your door in, you litigate the issue later. Duh. But you don't have to let them in just them in because they say so. Again, duh. If the cops marched into the patient's room and took a blood sample, the nurse had no right or obligation to physically resist them. But when they ordered her to perform an illegal search, she had every right to say no.

2. There was no impasse over what the policy was. The cop did not have a warrant. The applicable policy is contained in the fourth amendment. The cop's opinion about what the hospital should do is worth about as much as the hot air that he was spouting.

3. The speeding analogy is just plain stupid. A cop has the right to detain you. A cop does not have the right to order you to assist in an illegal search. If he wants it to be legal, the fourth amendment tells him exactly what to do: get a warrant.

You're wrong. Let it go.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:52 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
What if the police come to your door with a warrant and you don't agree the warrant was lawfully obtained? What should you do? Shoot the cop? Run? Spit in his face? Hold the door closed with both hands and yell no?

The two were at odds on what the policy was. The cop called his supervisor who told him to arrest her if she didn't comply. She called her supervisor who told the cop not to move forward.

They were at an impasse on what was legally right. This happens every day. You were speeding, no I was not. Sometimes the officer was right. Sometimes the other person was right. In the moment, IMO, the final arbiter is the cop, not the individual.

And if he court later finds he was wrong, and egregiously so, he should be disciplined if not fired since it is his job to interpet the law correctly.


Bull. I understand that you love to be the contrarian on stuff like this, but you are just plain wrong. You need to suck it up and move on to something else.

1. This has absolutely nothing to do with physically resisting a cop. That's just a lame attempt on your part to come up with an analogy. If the cops kick your door in, you litigate the issue later. Duh. But you don't have to let them in just them in because they say so. Again, duh. If the cops marched into the patient's room and took a blood sample, the nurse had no right or obligation to physically resist them. But when they ordered her to perform an illegal search, she had every right to say no.

2. There was no impasse over what the policy was. The cop did not have a warrant. The applicable policy is contained in the fourth amendment. The cop's opinion about what the hospital should do is worth about as much as the hot air that he was spouting.

3. The speeding analogy is just plain stupid. A cop has the right to detain you. A cop does not have the right to order you to assist in an illegal search. If he wants it to be legal, the fourth amendment tells him exactly what to do: get a warrant.

You're wrong. Let it go.


I don't disagree with much that you are saying actually. And I don't need to let it go. You could simply not reply. You reply to my post and then expect me not to respond? How about you let it go because uhh you're wrong? Haha. Silly no?

I agree the cop does not have the right to order you to assist in an illegal search. However, whether he has or does not have that right is to be determined later, not by an individual at that moment in time of the impasse.

The cop believed he had the right to obtain the blood. The nurse believed otherwise. Now clearly, the police dept has issues with informing their department on proper policy here.

But in a scenario where a cop believes he is right, and an individual disagrees, I think we ought to yield to the cop but also place heavy punishments when they are wrong.

Fwiw, that doctor that waa forcibly removed from the plane? I thought he should have complied too, and then filed a complaint about it after the fact. Just my opinion, I don't really care if Aneus Hunter agrees or not.

And fwiw, a cop does not always have the right to detain you. Whether they did, is determined by the court, again, after the fact, not by the person he is trying to detain. There are many instances of cops detaining people that was later determined to be unlawful.
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