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yinoma2001
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 Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | mookielala wrote: | | In reality, if we have a chance at any of PG, WB, or LBJ as a free agent, we take it. We can figure how to make it work afterwards. Two of any of them would put us in a new orbit. And as they age, we will have a few young guys coming up who can be the base of the next team. |
Exactly. Folks here are making the perfect the enemy of the good. I'll happily take any 2 of those guys. |
I would be happy with one of them. |
Same. And preferably PG13 for me. Of the 3, I think PG still allows BI and Ball plenty of opprtunity. |
I don't think that's his criteria. Pg13 is coming with another star or he isn't coming IMO.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Like it or not, the Lakers are going to need a go-to scorer on their team. If you don't you become a discount Atlanta. |
it depends on what you mean by a go-to scorer. If you mean another Kobe/MJ type player, I don't agree. If you mean a star quality player who can create his own shot, I agree.
| MJST wrote: | | Westbrook is a go-to scorer, he can play the 2, or switch roles back and forth with Lonzo at the guard at the drop of a dime. That all works just fine. |
I have a problem with this sort of reasoning. It assumes that Westbrook would be comfortable and effective in a role that he has never played before. What's the point of signing Westbrook if you don't want him to be Westbrook? We went through something similar with Kobe and Sessions/Nash. |
Westbrook is still Westbrook at the 2 or the 1.
Unless you can tell me the defacto difference between James Harden and Steph Curry that would make one a point guard and the other a shooting guard then we won't need to worry about that  |
No, this isn't about labels. The NBA has essentially gone back in time to the way things worked in the early 1960s. There were no "point guards" and "shooting guards" back then. Those terms weren't even coined until the mid-'60s. There were just "guards." Oscar Robertson wasn't a "point guard." He was a guard. For sure, there are still traditional point guards (Chris Paul) and traditional shooting guards (Klay Thompson) in the league, but over the last couple decades the "guards" have returned -- Iverson, Rose, Westbrook, Irving, and others. These are all guys who look like point guards but really aren't.
Instead, this is about the way that Westbrook plays. He plays with the ball in his hands. He doesn't play as a spot up shooter waiting for a point guard to pass him the ball. If you ask him to do that, (1) he probably won't do it (ask Durant about that), and (2) if he did, he wouldn't be Westbrook any more.
That's what you're missing. You are fixating on labels and talking about Westbrook and Ball trading off as the 1 and the 2. That's really outdated thinking, at least as applied to a guy like Westbrook. It doesn't matter whether you call Westbrook the 1 or the 2. He's going to have the ball in his hands, or he isn't Westbrook any more. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah. WB didn't change his game for KD he sure as hell won't for a 19-20 year old Lonzo. Even with LBJ I think the ball isnt primarily in Lonzo's hands either.
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MJST
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Like it or not, the Lakers are going to need a go-to scorer on their team. If you don't you become a discount Atlanta. |
it depends on what you mean by a go-to scorer. If you mean another Kobe/MJ type player, I don't agree. If you mean a star quality player who can create his own shot, I agree.
| MJST wrote: | | Westbrook is a go-to scorer, he can play the 2, or switch roles back and forth with Lonzo at the guard at the drop of a dime. That all works just fine. |
I have a problem with this sort of reasoning. It assumes that Westbrook would be comfortable and effective in a role that he has never played before. What's the point of signing Westbrook if you don't want him to be Westbrook? We went through something similar with Kobe and Sessions/Nash. |
Westbrook is still Westbrook at the 2 or the 1.
Unless you can tell me the defacto difference between James Harden and Steph Curry that would make one a point guard and the other a shooting guard then we won't need to worry about that |
No, this isn't about labels. The NBA has essentially gone back in time to the way things worked in the early 1960s. There were no "point guards" and "shooting guards" back then. Those terms weren't even coined until the mid-'60s. There were just "guards." Oscar Robertson wasn't a "point guard." He was a guard. For sure, there are still traditional point guards (Chris Paul) and traditional shooting guards (Klay Thompson) in the league, but over the last couple decades the "guards" have returned -- Iverson, Rose, Westbrook, Irving, and others. These are all guys who look like point guards but really aren't.
Instead, this is about the way that Westbrook plays. He plays with the ball in his hands. He doesn't play as a spot up shooter waiting for a point guard to pass him the ball. If you ask him to do that, (1) he probably won't do it (ask Durant about that), and (2) if he did, he wouldn't be Westbrook any more.
That's what you're missing. You are fixating on labels and talking about Westbrook and Ball trading off as the 1 and the 2. That's really outdated thinking, at least as applied to a guy like Westbrook. It doesn't matter whether you call Westbrook the 1 or the 2. He's going to have the ball in his hands, or he isn't Westbrook any more. |
Here's the thing. Westbrook can do both, and the only other ball handling guard he ever had next to him was Harden. The three of them worked pretty darn well.
Also Lonzo doesn't even hold the ball in his hands for very long anyway. THAT and one of Lonzo's greatest strengths outside of his passing is his off ball intelligence.
So LIKE I SAID, both of them could trade the role depending on what the defense is showing them and they could both do it seamlessly. If Lonzo held the ball like a Chris Paul does I may understand your worry, but he's the opposite of that.
So again, I don't see any reason why you think that Lonzo and Westbrook couldn't play together. Their styles don't 'work against' the other.
People act like Lonzo holds the ball in his hands throughout half a possession, he doesn't. It's not his playstyle. That's one of the things that makes him unique at his position.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Yeah. WB didn't change his game for KD he sure as hell won't for a 19-20 year old Lonzo. Even with LBJ I think the ball isnt primarily in Lonzo's hands either. |
And that is why with those two, I have major concerns. There's no doubt we'd rack up more wins with the ball out of Lonzos hands and in the hands of a WB or LBJ though.
Just seems a bit weird to burn a #2 pick on a guy who is a pass-first ball in his hands guy, and then bring in two more seasoned players who will want the ball even more than Lonzo would. |
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CalisFinest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Yeah. WB didn't change his game for KD he sure as hell won't for a 19-20 year old Lonzo. Even with LBJ I think the ball isnt primarily in Lonzo's hands either. |
And that is why with those two, I have major concerns. There's no doubt we'd rack up more wins with the ball out of Lonzos hands and in the hands of a WB or LBJ though.
Just seems a bit weird to burn a #2 pick on a guy who is a pass-first ball in his hands guy, and then bring in two more seasoned players who will want the ball even more than Lonzo would. |
I wouldn't say it would be "burning" a #2 pick, Ball was never THAT ball dominant in the first place. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Yeah. WB didn't change his game for KD he sure as hell won't for a 19-20 year old Lonzo. Even with LBJ I think the ball isnt primarily in Lonzo's hands either. |
And that is why with those two, I have major concerns. There's no doubt we'd rack up more wins with the ball out of Lonzos hands and in the hands of a WB or LBJ though.
Just seems a bit weird to burn a #2 pick on a guy who is a pass-first ball in his hands guy, and then bring in two more seasoned players who will want the ball even more than Lonzo would. |
Not really. First he's 19. Second he's shown he can facilitate AND play off ball. I personally think he's a dream fit with LBJ, less with WB (though I happily take him).
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MJST
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| CalisFinest wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Yeah. WB didn't change his game for KD he sure as hell won't for a 19-20 year old Lonzo. Even with LBJ I think the ball isnt primarily in Lonzo's hands either. |
And that is why with those two, I have major concerns. There's no doubt we'd rack up more wins with the ball out of Lonzos hands and in the hands of a WB or LBJ though.
Just seems a bit weird to burn a #2 pick on a guy who is a pass-first ball in his hands guy, and then bring in two more seasoned players who will want the ball even more than Lonzo would. |
I wouldn't say it would be "burning" a #2 pick, Ball was never THAT ball dominant in the first place. |
It's seriously like people think that Ball would have to handle the ball 90% of the time and Westbrook would have to stand off-ball in order for them to work -_-
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Yeah. WB didn't change his game for KD he sure as hell won't for a 19-20 year old Lonzo. Even with LBJ I think the ball isnt primarily in Lonzo's hands either. |
And that is why with those two, I have major concerns. There's no doubt we'd rack up more wins with the ball out of Lonzos hands and in the hands of a WB or LBJ though.
Just seems a bit weird to burn a #2 pick on a guy who is a pass-first ball in his hands guy, and then bring in two more seasoned players who will want the ball even more than Lonzo would. |
Not really. First he's 19. Second he's shown he can facilitate AND play off ball. I personally think he's a dream fit with LBJ, less with WB (though I happily take him). |
Well, he'll be 20 next season. And I wouldn't say he's shown anything yet. Not sure how mucn stock I put in SPL.
We'll just have to see how he does this year. If he has a really fantastic season as the primary ball handler, I won't be surprised to see people change their tune about whether they want to shy away from more of that after a full season under his belt.
If he struggles, well, then the idea becomes a little more palatable. |
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FreakofNature
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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I think that if the Lakers have a real chance at Bron and RW *Almost impossible to imagine* you "have" to go for it.
Bron, RW and Ball will all have to bend, adjust, improvise, adapt. Will it succeed? To a degree I think so, just incredible talent, but to what level will it suceed? Defeating the Warriors level? |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | It's seriously like people think that Ball would have to handle the ball 90% of the time and Westbrook would have to stand off-ball in order for them to work -_- |
Again, you're thinking about it the wrong way. You don't get full value out of Ball unless he is orchestrating the offense. If he develops into the kind of player that we are hoping for, that's what he will be -- a conductor. That's what Magic was like back in the day. That's not going to work with Westbrook. He's the guitar hero prancing around the stage. |
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oldlakerfan
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:50 am Post subject: |
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If you are OKC and don't think you can resign PG13 and Westbrook why wouldn't you look at trade them and get some pieces for the future?
Love to acquire them without giving up Randle, BI or Ball.
KCP, Clarkson, Nance, Zubac, Hart, Kuzma, Deng and Brewer plus a couple of first rounders.
That is at least the start of a good team right there. Deng is there of to make the salaries match.
Probably a pipe dream but if the young guys show really good improvement and OKC is sure they are going to lose both of them it beats the alternative of getting nothing in return. |
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King Randle
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| Megaton wrote: | | PRLakeShow wrote: | | (bleep) the 2 max plan. 3 max plan is where it's at. |
Magic pulls a rabbit out of his hat and trades Clarkson and Deng with no returning next year salary.
Ball
Westbrook
George
Ingram
James
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I actually see this as a possibility but not likely. I'll stick with LBJ and PG as the most likely scenario. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | CalisFinest wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Yeah. WB didn't change his game for KD he sure as hell won't for a 19-20 year old Lonzo. Even with LBJ I think the ball isnt primarily in Lonzo's hands either. |
And that is why with those two, I have major concerns. There's no doubt we'd rack up more wins with the ball out of Lonzos hands and in the hands of a WB or LBJ though.
Just seems a bit weird to burn a #2 pick on a guy who is a pass-first ball in his hands guy, and then bring in two more seasoned players who will want the ball even more than Lonzo would. |
I wouldn't say it would be "burning" a #2 pick, Ball was never THAT ball dominant in the first place. |
It's seriously like people think that Ball would have to handle the ball 90% of the time and Westbrook would have to stand off-ball in order for them to work -_- |
You couldn't be more wrong, people think the opposite (at least I do). Westbrook or Lebron will have the ball in their hands and Ball would be the one waiting for a pass. And that shouldn't be a problem, both of them have proven that they operate well that way.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| oldlakerfan wrote: | If you are OKC and don't think you can resign PG13 and Westbrook why wouldn't you look at trade them and get some pieces for the future?
Love to acquire them without giving up Randle, BI or Ball.
KCP, Clarkson, Nance, Zubac, Hart, Kuzma, Deng and Brewer plus a couple of first rounders.
That is at least the start of a good team right there. Deng is there of to make the salaries match.
Probably a pipe dream but if the young guys show really good improvement and OKC is sure they are going to lose both of them it beats the alternative of getting nothing in return. |
There are other options. Such as trading them to other teams for better players. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| oldlakerfan wrote: | If you are OKC and don't think you can resign PG13 and Westbrook why wouldn't you look at trade them and get some pieces for the future?
Love to acquire them without giving up Randle, BI or Ball.
KCP, Clarkson, Nance, Zubac, Hart, Kuzma, Deng and Brewer plus a couple of first rounders.
That is at least the start of a good team right there. Deng is there of to make the salaries match.
Probably a pipe dream but if the young guys show really good improvement and OKC is sure they are going to lose both of them it beats the alternative of getting nothing in return. |
Big time pipe dream. Why would OKC think that they couldn't re-sign PG and RW?
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | CalisFinest wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Yeah. WB didn't change his game for KD he sure as hell won't for a 19-20 year old Lonzo. Even with LBJ I think the ball isnt primarily in Lonzo's hands either. |
And that is why with those two, I have major concerns. There's no doubt we'd rack up more wins with the ball out of Lonzos hands and in the hands of a WB or LBJ though.
Just seems a bit weird to burn a #2 pick on a guy who is a pass-first ball in his hands guy, and then bring in two more seasoned players who will want the ball even more than Lonzo would. |
I wouldn't say it would be "burning" a #2 pick, Ball was never THAT ball dominant in the first place. |
It's seriously like people think that Ball would have to handle the ball 90% of the time and Westbrook would have to stand off-ball in order for them to work -_- |
You couldn't be more wrong, people think the opposite (at least I do). Westbrook or Lebron will have the ball in their hands and Ball would be the one waiting for a pass. And that shouldn't be a problem, both of them have proven that they operate well that way. |
Ball hasn't even played an NBA preseason game yet. He hasn't proven anything.
Do you guys think we should play Ball off-ball this season to get him ready for WB/LBJ? |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | oldlakerfan wrote: | If you are OKC and don't think you can resign PG13 and Westbrook why wouldn't you look at trade them and get some pieces for the future?
Love to acquire them without giving up Randle, BI or Ball.
KCP, Clarkson, Nance, Zubac, Hart, Kuzma, Deng and Brewer plus a couple of first rounders.
That is at least the start of a good team right there. Deng is there of to make the salaries match.
Probably a pipe dream but if the young guys show really good improvement and OKC is sure they are going to lose both of them it beats the alternative of getting nothing in return. |
Big time pipe dream. Why would OKC think that they couldn't re-sign PG and RW? |
Bc they thought they could re sign KD.
Or they preemptively moved harden when he didn't agree to an extension?
They've been hurt in the past before.
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The Lebrons
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Why would OKC think that they couldn't re-sign PG and RW? |
Maybe because they offered Westbrook a 5year/207 million contract months ago and he hasn't signed it?
Maybe because Paul George has given no indication he plans to re-sign?
Maybe because they had another superstar who left in free agency a year ago (who they thought would never leave)? |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| The Lebrons wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Why would OKC think that they couldn't re-sign PG and RW? |
Maybe because they offered Westbrook a 5year/207 million contract months ago and he hasn't signed it?
Maybe because Paul George has given no indication he plans to re-sign?
Maybe because they had another superstar who left in free agency a year ago (who they thought would never leave)? |
The oladipo deal also lets them clear the cap books if WB/pg13 don't return.
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The Lebrons
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | The Lebrons wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Why would OKC think that they couldn't re-sign PG and RW? |
Maybe because they offered Westbrook a 5year/207 million contract months ago and he hasn't signed it?
Maybe because Paul George has given no indication he plans to re-sign?
Maybe because they had another superstar who left in free agency a year ago (who they thought would never leave)? |
The oladipo deal also lets them clear the cap books if WB/pg13 don't return. |
We're not even going that far. The assertion that there's no reason to think that Westbrook or PG13 won't re-sign is very...I don't have a nice word for it. |
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Lakers2015
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| Megaton wrote: | Not really feeling the fit with Westbrook here. Especially if Lebron comes here too. Lebron and WB would be an odd as hell pairing, especially with Lonzo and Ingram here.
PG and Cousins are ideal imo. Paul George the most ideal with another being the cherry on top. |
You make it work.
Wade & LeBron weren't an ideal fit either.
You don't pass up on elite talent.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| The Lebrons wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | The Lebrons wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Why would OKC think that they couldn't re-sign PG and RW? |
Maybe because they offered Westbrook a 5year/207 million contract months ago and he hasn't signed it?
Maybe because Paul George has given no indication he plans to re-sign?
Maybe because they had another superstar who left in free agency a year ago (who they thought would never leave)? |
The oladipo deal also lets them clear the cap books if WB/pg13 don't return. |
We're not even going that far. The assertion that there's no reason to think that Westbrook or PG13 won't re-sign is very...I don't have a nice word for it. |
I'm saying that the Dipo deal was a backup plan to rebuild from scratch Just in case.
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governator
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | It's seriously like people think that Ball would have to handle the ball 90% of the time and Westbrook would have to stand off-ball in order for them to work -_- |
Again, you're thinking about it the wrong way. You don't get full value out of Ball unless he is orchestrating the offense. If he develops into the kind of player that we are hoping for, that's what he will be -- a conductor. That's what Magic was like back in the day. That's not going to work with Westbrook. He's the guitar hero prancing around the stage. |
Ball and LBJ, 2 Magic running the O
PG13, Worthy 2 way game (not as good as Big Game tho)
WB, this is like the superstar version of B.Scott
BI, longer taller Cooper
Need a Kareem
Lol, then the alarm goes off |
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oldlakerfan
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | oldlakerfan wrote: | If you are OKC and don't think you can resign PG13 and Westbrook why wouldn't you look at trade them and get some pieces for the future?
Love to acquire them without giving up Randle, BI or Ball.
KCP, Clarkson, Nance, Zubac, Hart, Kuzma, Deng and Brewer plus a couple of first rounders.
That is at least the start of a good team right there. Deng is there of to make the salaries match.
Probably a pipe dream but if the young guys show really good improvement and OKC is sure they are going to lose both of them it beats the alternative of getting nothing in return. |
Big time pipe dream. Why would OKC think that they couldn't re-sign PG and RW? |
Low probability yes but if Clarkson, KCP, Nance & Kuzma all play well that his a pretty good package to build a team with.
At some point during the season OKC will need to determine if they can resign those guys or not. PG13 has already said he wants to be a Laker and Westbrook has a huge contract he has not yet signed. The will be faced with getting nothing in return and a 5 year rebuilding situation if they play their cards wrong. |
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