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DuncanIdaho
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:56 pm    Post subject:

I was taught similarly.

Federalist 29 and 46 give some insight into both of those issues and where Madison and Hamilton stood.

The idea of state militias being stronger than the federal government's standing army to ward against tyranny is a bridge we obviously crossed long ago though.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:57 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I think I commented on that article back when I still participated in The Political Thread. I won't call the article bogus (though the author was, in fact, named Bogus), but I did not find it persuasive. The author admits that no one ever said or wrote that the second amendment was about slavery. Instead, he points to a variety of surrounding circumstances as circumstantial evidence that it was about slave revolts. That's pretty thin. The Founding Fathers were usually fairly blunt about what they were doing. Even if this was an exception and they were being coy, wouldn't there be a record of someone from the south telling his constituents, "Look! This amendment helps us suppress slave revolts!"

It's not completely implausible, but I wasn't persuaded.


Yup. In Federalist Paper 29 Hamilton laid out what they meant by a militia and the justification for one. No mention of slavery (at least, not in that context).
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:00 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Fair enough. I find the argument and evidence persuasive, but I can agreeably disagree with you on that. I do think we can agree that preparing to rise up against the government was not the purpose of the second amendment.


Well, insurrection was not the purpose of the second amendment. The second amendment prohibited the federal government from infringing on the right to bear arms. So why would anyone be concerned about the federal government doing that? There is a grain of truth in the NRA propaganda about fighting the government. We must not lose sight of that, just because the NRA and its fellow travelers portray the second amendment as some bizarre expression of anarchism.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:31 pm    Post subject:

DuncanIdaho wrote:
I was taught similarly.

Federalist 29 and 46 give some insight into both of those issues and where Madison and Hamilton stood.

The idea of state militias being stronger than the federal government's standing army to ward against tyranny is a bridge we obviously crossed long ago though.


Yeah, think insurgents can get their hands on these... LINK or LINK or LINK or LINK to picture a few. The 2nd amendment needs revisiting.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:11 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Fair enough. I find the argument and evidence persuasive, but I can agreeably disagree with you on that. I do think we can agree that preparing to rise up against the government was not the purpose of the second amendment.


Well, insurrection was not the purpose of the second amendment. The second amendment prohibited the federal government from infringing on the right to bear arms. So why would anyone be concerned about the federal government doing that? There is a grain of truth in the NRA propaganda about fighting the government. We must not lose sight of that, just because the NRA and its fellow travelers portray the second amendment as some bizarre expression of anarchism.


Same reason they were concerned about the government not being able to suppress free speech or conduct warrantless searches? I do hear you that some sort of protection from a heavy handed government was inherent there, but even that idea has lost its value over time. The government isn't going to send guys with muskets to take your musket these days.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:04 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Same reason they were concerned about the government not being able to suppress free speech or conduct warrantless searches? I do hear you that some sort of protection from a heavy handed government was inherent there, but even that idea has lost its value over time. The government isn't going to send guys with muskets to take your musket these days.


I may have said this in another thread, but it's an important point so I'll say it again.

The greatest single fallacy of the NRA argument is that it implicitly assumes that the government is a comic book supervillain. It's Barack Obama and Nancy Pelosi in spandex coming to oppress you. In the real world, it's police officers enforcing the laws passed by the government. Dallas and Baton Rouge showed us what it looks like when people use guns to fight the minions of an oppressive government. Ditto for the softball field in Virginia. An awful lot of people have never truly considered that people with very different world views might exercise their supposed second amendment rights in unexpected ways.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:08 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Guns in America are cultural. Stopping mass shootings here is a task of gargantuan proportion. I don't think it can be done.

How Japan has almost eradicated gun crime


Gun Laws In Japan


It's not the laws in Japan. Its culture. The law, is more a function of their culture so together, they make for a pretty harmonious place.

Culture follows law. But I guess the Japanese are just a more naturally peaceful people, huh?


Well, they are probably symbiotic to an extent. But with the right culture in place, you can set laws that people follow. Also, there are countries with strict gun laws and high per capita gun deaths, and countries with loose gun laws and high per capita gun deaths.

But the countries that have "good" culture, seem to have low gun deaths regardless of their gun laws. Switzerland is another good example. If our plan is limited to laws then we are doomed.

What countries would those be? Looking at OECD countries, the U.S. with the most permissive gun laws also has by far the highest rates of per capita gun deaths and gun suicides.

Switzerland does seem like the best case for the U.S., as despite more widespread per capita gun ownership, the Swiss regulate the heck out of guns and keep strict documentation on gun ownership. So I agree with a federal central registry of all guns, making concealed and open carry illegal, and eliminating the hording of weapons like Switzerland has done.

You seem to have a low opinion of the law's ability to change our culture, but I do agree that culture needs to follow the law. I just disagree that culture change needs to be a prerequisite for the law, though in practice it often is. Unfortunately in the US the culture supports loose gun restriction and the acceptance of routine mass murder as collateral damage for the freedom offered by a liberal, lobbyist supported interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:38 am    Post subject:

LarryCoon wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I think I commented on that article back when I still participated in The Political Thread. I won't call the article bogus (though the author was, in fact, named Bogus), but I did not find it persuasive. The author admits that no one ever said or wrote that the second amendment was about slavery. Instead, he points to a variety of surrounding circumstances as circumstantial evidence that it was about slave revolts. That's pretty thin. The Founding Fathers were usually fairly blunt about what they were doing. Even if this was an exception and they were being coy, wouldn't there be a record of someone from the south telling his constituents, "Look! This amendment helps us suppress slave revolts!"

It's not completely implausible, but I wasn't persuaded.


Yup. In Federalist Paper 29 Hamilton laid out what they meant by a militia and the justification for one. No mention of slavery (at least, not in that context).


I'm thinking some may not have read Federalist No. 29 Here's the Wiki. It seems like the beginning of the National Guard.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:28 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Guns in America are cultural. Stopping mass shootings here is a task of gargantuan proportion. I don't think it can be done.

How Japan has almost eradicated gun crime


Gun Laws In Japan


It's not the laws in Japan. Its culture. The law, is more a function of their culture so together, they make for a pretty harmonious place.

Culture follows law. But I guess the Japanese are just a more naturally peaceful people, huh?


Well, they are probably symbiotic to an extent. But with the right culture in place, you can set laws that people follow. Also, there are countries with strict gun laws and high per capita gun deaths, and countries with loose gun laws and high per capita gun deaths.

But the countries that have "good" culture, seem to have low gun deaths regardless of their gun laws. Switzerland is another good example. If our plan is limited to laws then we are doomed.

What countries would those be? Looking at OECD countries, the U.S. with the most permissive gun laws also has by far the highest rates of per capita gun deaths and gun suicides.

Switzerland does seem like the best case for the U.S., as despite more widespread per capita gun ownership, the Swiss regulate the heck out of guns and keep strict documentation on gun ownership. So I agree with a federal central registry of all guns, making concealed and open carry illegal, and eliminating the hording of weapons like Switzerland has done.

You seem to have a low opinion of the law's ability to change our culture, but I do agree that culture needs to follow the law. I just disagree that culture change needs to be a prerequisite for the law, though in practice it often is. Unfortunately in the US the culture supports loose gun restriction and the acceptance of routine mass murder as collateral damage for the freedom offered by a liberal, lobbyist supported interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.


Well, one example would be Brazil. Strict gun laws, high per capita gun deaths (roughly double the U.S.) -- I don't know the numbers and I would imagine much of South America is similar (i.e. Colombia, etc)

Also, I don't believe Switzerland has a federal registry of all guns.

And you're right, I do have a low opinion of the law's ability to change our culture because I believe culture comes first. Simply, you have to have a culture that actually values adherence to law to begin with (which both Switz and Japan do) but more importantly, one with a great sense of community and respect for cultural tradition that lends to healthy alignment on the spirit, rather than letter, of law.

For example -- here in the U.S. we are a very "letter of law" society. If you draw a line and say do not get near this line, we will want to have a ridiculous back and forth debate on what defines "near" and you'll have opponents of the law stand riiigggghhhhhtttt up against the line and say "is this near?" take one step forward and say "is THIS near?" It's what we do here.

In a culture that is more aligned to a spirit of law, if that law is enacted, people just stay away from it and go somewhere else. That's why nearly 60% of all crimes in Switzerland are committed by non-citizens.

The Swiss go to extensive lengths to protect their culture. Lengths we wouldn't dare touch. For instance, the Swiss are generally relatively open when it comes to immigration but with one big catch. Culture assimilation. They have denied citizenship to a Dutch woman who didn't believe in or like the bells worn by Swiss cows and a father who forbade his sons from shaking hands with their female teacher. An American who lived there 40 years but couldn't name a Swiss friend. Two Muslim girls who wouldn't share a pool with boys in class (and their father was fined for that as well).

It also helps that they require all able bodied men 19-34 to serve in the military and get weapon training -- think we could pass a law and suddenly people would do that?

Anyway, my point in bringing up Switzerland wasn't to take the NRA stance of "hey look, high ownership low crime" because it's a totally different beast. The low crime is a result of something that has nothing to do with high gun ownership rate, but, a very strong and protected culture.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:47 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Guns in America are cultural. Stopping mass shootings here is a task of gargantuan proportion. I don't think it can be done.

How Japan has almost eradicated gun crime


Gun Laws In Japan


It's not the laws in Japan. Its culture. The law, is more a function of their culture so together, they make for a pretty harmonious place.

Culture follows law. But I guess the Japanese are just a more naturally peaceful people, huh?


Well, they are probably symbiotic to an extent. But with the right culture in place, you can set laws that people follow. Also, there are countries with strict gun laws and high per capita gun deaths, and countries with loose gun laws and high per capita gun deaths.

But the countries that have "good" culture, seem to have low gun deaths regardless of their gun laws. Switzerland is another good example. If our plan is limited to laws then we are doomed.

What countries would those be? Looking at OECD countries, the U.S. with the most permissive gun laws also has by far the highest rates of per capita gun deaths and gun suicides.

Switzerland does seem like the best case for the U.S., as despite more widespread per capita gun ownership, the Swiss regulate the heck out of guns and keep strict documentation on gun ownership. So I agree with a federal central registry of all guns, making concealed and open carry illegal, and eliminating the hording of weapons like Switzerland has done.

You seem to have a low opinion of the law's ability to change our culture, but I do agree that culture needs to follow the law. I just disagree that culture change needs to be a prerequisite for the law, though in practice it often is. Unfortunately in the US the culture supports loose gun restriction and the acceptance of routine mass murder as collateral damage for the freedom offered by a liberal, lobbyist supported interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.


Well, one example would be Brazil. Strict gun laws, high per capita gun deaths (roughly double the U.S.) -- I don't know the numbers and I would imagine much of South America is similar (i.e. Colombia, etc)

Also, I don't believe Switzerland has a federal registry of all guns.

And you're right, I do have a low opinion of the law's ability to change our culture because I believe culture comes first. Simply, you have to have a culture that actually values adherence to law to begin with (which both Switz and Japan do) but more importantly, one with a great sense of community and respect for cultural tradition that lends to healthy alignment on the spirit, rather than letter, of law.

For example -- here in the U.S. we are a very "letter of law" society. If you draw a line and say do not get near this line, we will want to have a ridiculous back and forth debate on what defines "near" and you'll have opponents of the law stand riiigggghhhhhtttt up against the line and say "is this near?" take one step forward and say "is THIS near?" It's what we do here.

In a culture that is more aligned to a spirit of law, if that law is enacted, people just stay away from it and go somewhere else. That's why nearly 60% of all crimes in Switzerland are committed by non-citizens.

The Swiss go to extensive lengths to protect their culture. Lengths we wouldn't dare touch. For instance, the Swiss are generally relatively open when it comes to immigration but with one big catch. Culture assimilation. They have denied citizenship to a Dutch woman who didn't believe in or like the bells worn by Swiss cows and a father who forbade his sons from shaking hands with their female teacher. An American who lived there 40 years but couldn't name a Swiss friend. Two Muslim girls who wouldn't share a pool with boys in class (and their father was fined for that as well).

It also helps that they require all able bodied men 19-34 to serve in the military and get weapon training -- think we could pass a law and suddenly people would do that?

Anyway, my point in bringing up Switzerland wasn't to take the NRA stance of "hey look, high ownership low crime" because it's a totally different beast. The low crime is a result of something that has nothing to do with high gun ownership rate, but, a very strong and protected culture.


Really all you have to do is go to the south of the boader if you want to see gun control not work.
In mexico it's almost impossible to get a gun threw legal channels and there are many gun homicides

I would still outlaw bumpstocks but even if our gun control laws were tough it wouldn't solve the problem,.

It's econimcs 101 when something is in high demand even if you outlaw it, it usually creates a black market (like mexico). There are exception to this rule but guns aren't the exception.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject:

I wish the media would stop constantly reminding the public of the Vegas shooting. It's been a week and it's still a media focus. The families are going through enough. It won't go away for them any time soon. Please let it die down.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:29 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
I wish the media would stop constantly reminding the public of the Vegas shooting. It's been a week and it's still a media focus. The families are going through enough. It won't go away for them any time soon. Please let it die down.


Absolutely the opposite of what we should be doing. The pattern you suggest is what feeds the laziness about formulating a rational and effective reform that can help to combat the body counts pf these mass shootings.

Moving on and forgetting is exactly why 20 dead kids at Sandy Hook is passed silently without action to attempt to reduce shootings like these.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:55 pm    Post subject:

From an outsider's perspective I simply cannot understand how your country does not do anything to combat this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ECYMvjU52E

p.s.: we have 1,2 violent deaths per 100.000 inhabitants. And few of those are gun-related.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:49 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
I wish the media would stop constantly reminding the public of the Vegas shooting. It's been a week and it's still a media focus. The families are going through enough. It won't go away for them any time soon. Please let it die down.


Absolutely the opposite of what we should be doing. The pattern you suggest is what feeds the laziness about formulating a rational and effective reform that can help to combat the body counts pf these mass shootings.

Moving on and forgetting is exactly why 20 dead kids at Sandy Hook is passed silently without action to attempt to reduce shootings like these.


You may be right, I'm thinking about the families. They're living the nightmare daily. I wish their feelings would be considered. IMO it's time to slow down media mention not the effective reform forum.

Americans as a whole are becoming more aware of the dangers of gun violence. Incidents such as Vegas is a motivator. It puts gun violence on politicians front burners. How long it will stay there is still to be seen.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:58 am    Post subject:

This is dragging out in the media because of the mystery behind his motivation. Itís fading away, though, because it is increasingly clear that we arenít going to get an answer.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:08 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
This is dragging out in the media because of the mystery behind his motivation. Itís fading away, though, because it is increasingly clear that we arenít going to get an answer.


Good point, hadn't thought of that. Now prepare for speculation to keep it media mention.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:11 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
This is dragging out in the media because of the mystery behind his motivation. Itís fading away, though, because it is increasingly clear that we arenít going to get an answer.


true, but its also about there has not been another "big story" to take its place....as soon as interest diminishes and something else can take the headlines, the media will move on quickly.

I for one am troubled that we may never learn what drove this man to take such a despicable action.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:23 am    Post subject:

DuncanIdaho, LarryCoon, Omar, Aeneas Hunter and others.....does your employment or past employment require in depth study of the Constitution and the process of its completion?

I consider myself fairly educated in the document, have invested time in my formal education and even side classes on the subject.....and although I am familiar with the topics within the Federalist Papers and can quickly locate the information when needed because of that general knowledge.....I admit that my knowledge is not so in-depth to quickly call out which article the information is discussed without looking it up.....or even if it was Hamilton, Madison or Jay...

just curious if your knowledge is mostly career/education based or personal study on the subject....
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:46 am    Post subject:

welp...that didn't last too long.

Quote:
NRA fighting full ban on ďbump stocksĒ like the device used by the Las Vegas gunman


https://twitter.com/AP_Politics/status/917348359261818880
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:55 am    Post subject:

Huskers wrote:
welp...that didn't last too long.

Quote:
NRA fighting full ban on ďbump stocksĒ like the device used by the Las Vegas gunman


https://twitter.com/AP_Politics/status/917348359261818880


for what it is worth, they prefer it to go the regulation route instead of the legislation route.....have the ATF ban them. They believe that "gun control advocates" will not allow a clean bill to go through Congress without trying to add many things to it. At least that was my understanding of the situation this weekend.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:13 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
DuncanIdaho, LarryCoon, Omar, Aeneas Hunter and others.....does your employment or past employment require in depth study of the Constitution and the process of its completion?


No, but it does require that I know how to use the Internet.

I knew that the rationale would be in the Federalist Papers but didn't know which one or which author. That was answered by some quick research.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:40 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
DuncanIdaho, LarryCoon, Omar, Aeneas Hunter and others.....does your employment or past employment require in depth study of the Constitution and the process of its completion?


Well, I am a lawyer and I did take courses that covered a wide variety of con law issues, but I wouldnít claim that my actual practice involves significant, cutting edge issues under the Constitution. I have an academic interest in these issues, so I read a lot of the cases as they come out. Sometimes I read cases that are being discussed on this board just as part of my contribution to the discussion. What can I say? Iím a nerd.

Just as an aside, I would be surprised if 5% of all litigation attorneys ever handle a case involving a cutting edge con law issue. It might be less than 1%. Unless you work for McKenzie, Brackman, Chaney & Kuzak or Crane, Poole & Schmidt, you donít see those issues very often.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:20 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
DuncanIdaho, LarryCoon, Omar, Aeneas Hunter and others.....does your employment or past employment require in depth study of the Constitution and the process of its completion?

I consider myself fairly educated in the document, have invested time in my formal education and even side classes on the subject.....and although I am familiar with the topics within the Federalist Papers and can quickly locate the information when needed because of that general knowledge.....I admit that my knowledge is not so in-depth to quickly call out which article the information is discussed without looking it up.....or even if it was Hamilton, Madison or Jay...

just curious if your knowledge is mostly career/education based or personal study on the subject....


I'm just insatiably curious about almost anything.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:21 am    Post subject:

LarryCoon wrote:
adkindo wrote:
DuncanIdaho, LarryCoon, Omar, Aeneas Hunter and others.....does your employment or past employment require in depth study of the Constitution and the process of its completion?


No, but it does require that I know how to use the Internet.

I knew that the rationale would be in the Federalist Papers but didn't know which one or which author. That was answered by some quick research.


makes me feel better....I always have to look it up also
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:27 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
adkindo wrote:
DuncanIdaho, LarryCoon, Omar, Aeneas Hunter and others.....does your employment or past employment require in depth study of the Constitution and the process of its completion?


Well, I am a lawyer and I did take courses that covered a wide variety of con law issues, but I wouldnít claim that my actual practice involves significant, cutting edge issues under the Constitution. I have an academic interest in these issues, so I read a lot of the cases as they come out. Sometimes I read cases that are being discussed on this board just as part of my contribution to the discussion. What can I say? Iím a nerd.

Just as an aside, I would be surprised if 5% of all litigation attorneys ever handle a case involving a cutting edge con law issue. It might be less than 1%. Unless you work for McKenzie, Brackman, Chaney & Kuzak or Crane, Poole & Schmidt, you donít see those issues very often.


reading DuncanIdaho's post...feels like he grew up under the tutelage of Jonathan Turley, Alan Dershowitz and Laurence Tribe.

DuncanIdaho wrote:
I was taught similarly.

Federalist 29 and 46 give some insight into both of those issues and where Madison and Hamilton stood.

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