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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144474
Location: The Gold Coast
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 Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | ^We'll have to see how much he loves his hometown. |
And how much he values winning
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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adkindo
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Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 40345
Location: Dirty South
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| davidse wrote: | Nance + 10 mil $ in cap room > Randle.
Never mind minutes for Ingram and Kuzma. |
maybe...probably...I guess that depends on how close Randle can get to his ceiling as a player and what you think his ceiling is....but I was just thinking of other roster moves that would increase the need for Randle. |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144474
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| davidse wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | davidse wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Nate Duncan and Leroux in their podcast brought up an interesting theory. Nate doesn't think Lonzo/LBJ work out, and that if we got LBJ, they may have to trade Lonzo.
At this point, while I acknowledge that LBJ is the best player of the 2018 FAs, I may be leaning more to a PG13/Boogie/Jules/room exception summer b/c I think it's holistically a better fit all around. Of course I'll take LBJ if he comes but it would be interesting to see what happens with Lonzo with LBJ as he is a ball dominant player. Lonzo could play off ball but his shooting obviously leaves much to be desired. |
In any scenario where we get Boogie, it makes even less sense to keep Randle over Clarkson. |
unless Nance is moved? |
Nance + 10 mil $ in cap room > Randle.
Never mind minutes for Ingram and Kuzma. |
You won’t get a player of Randle’s caliber for $10 mil and if Ingram and Kuzma can’t earn minutes, that is on them.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Super Mega Team
Star Player
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 3877
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| davidse wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | davidse wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Nate Duncan and Leroux in their podcast brought up an interesting theory. Nate doesn't think Lonzo/LBJ work out, and that if we got LBJ, they may have to trade Lonzo.
At this point, while I acknowledge that LBJ is the best player of the 2018 FAs, I may be leaning more to a PG13/Boogie/Jules/room exception summer b/c I think it's holistically a better fit all around. Of course I'll take LBJ if he comes but it would be interesting to see what happens with Lonzo with LBJ as he is a ball dominant player. Lonzo could play off ball but his shooting obviously leaves much to be desired. |
In any scenario where we get Boogie, it makes even less sense to keep Randle over Clarkson. |
unless Nance is moved? |
Nance + 10 mil $ in cap room > Randle.
Never mind minutes for Ingram and Kuzma. |
Lakers lack physicality without Randle. None of our bigs can effectively switch on the outside. Randle is the only one who can. Nance + 10 mil cap room probably doesn't do it either. |
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epak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 34147
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Nash Vegas wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Wait. The whole deal was we had to clear room for two guys because there was this backroom deal, and I wasn't supposed to judge the trade until we saw whether they got the two max guys. We're two months into the season and already that's getting shelved? |
Guess LeBron told Magic “nevermind”.
Magic’s a hype man. All talk. He hasn’t really delivered anything he’s hyped up last summer. |
I like the enthusiasm he brings but it is hollow. |
Let's halfway judge when traded guy gets back from injury. |
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Bard207
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 7713
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:44 am Post subject: |
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* Paul George signed summer 2018 at a mid tier Max of $30,300,000
* Gave Randle the same salary as Clarkson
* Used cap holds from Spotrac for Nance, Bryant and Zubac
Los Angeles Lakers 2019 Salary Cap
* $2.2 million for a cap hold on a 2019 first round pick
* $108 million salary cap for the 2019 - 20 season
2019-20
$31,815,000......Paul George (1)
$13,437,500......Julius Randle (2)
$13,437,500......Jordan Clarkson (3)
$8,719,320........Lonzo Ball (4)
$7,265,485........Brandon Ingram (5)
$1,974,600........Kyle Kuzma (6)
$1,934,160........Josh Hart (7)
$3,369,955........Larry Nance - cap hold (8)
$1,931,189........Ivica Zubac - cap hold (9)
$1,818,520........Thomas Bryant - cap hold (10)
$2,200,000........2019 First Round Pick - cap hold (11)
$32,400,000......2019 Mid Tier Max [$108,000,000 * .30] (12)
$0.....................Luol Deng
________________
$120,303,229
The first time that I have done it for summer 2019, so maybe something isn't quite right.
I would really like to see their spreadsheets or whatever they are doing the team salary modeling in. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:45 am Post subject: |
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Agreed Bard, let alone praying that Klay leaves the Warriors.
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Four Decade Bandwagon
Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2014
Posts: 8160
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | I don't think a long term team of just PG13 + JC/extended Jules is enough to be a top 3 team in the West. |
I wouldn't predict that year one either. But I would like their chances of being a solid playoff team. What about in a year or two though?
IMO much depends on player development of Ball, Ingram, Kuzma, Nance, Hart, Zubac, Bryant, etc. How much improvement can can be expected with a couple years experience by them and JC and Randle?
How much does that depth help in wins/losses over the next few seasons. In this case I am thinking smaller goals. Like competing for a playoff spot before worrying about top 3 consideration and a Championship.
Whichever path they take will be a risk. Always is. |
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Bard207
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 7713
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Agreed Bard, let alone praying that Klay leaves the Warriors. |
Would he tell his Dad this far in advance?
Would he use his Dad to backchannel to Magic? |
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davidse
Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2005
Posts: 14302
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | davidse wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | davidse wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Nate Duncan and Leroux in their podcast brought up an interesting theory. Nate doesn't think Lonzo/LBJ work out, and that if we got LBJ, they may have to trade Lonzo.
At this point, while I acknowledge that LBJ is the best player of the 2018 FAs, I may be leaning more to a PG13/Boogie/Jules/room exception summer b/c I think it's holistically a better fit all around. Of course I'll take LBJ if he comes but it would be interesting to see what happens with Lonzo with LBJ as he is a ball dominant player. Lonzo could play off ball but his shooting obviously leaves much to be desired. |
In any scenario where we get Boogie, it makes even less sense to keep Randle over Clarkson. |
unless Nance is moved? |
Nance + 10 mil $ in cap room > Randle.
Never mind minutes for Ingram and Kuzma. |
You won’t get a player of Randle’s caliber for $10 mil and if Ingram and Kuzma can’t earn minutes, that is on them. |
So now Nance is "magically" out of the equation, ha ?
Anyway, wrong way of looking at it.
You don't need to get a player of Randle's caliber for 10 mil $ for this to be a good move.
You need to be able to build a better roster with Nance, and an ADDITIONAL 10 mil $ in cap room (after already having signed Cousins) than you'd have with only Randle added to Cousins instead - which you absolutely will because there are only so many minutes to go around in the front court while the backcourt is super thin. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I don't think a long term team of just PG13 + JC/extended Jules is enough to be a top 3 team in the West. |
I wouldn't predict that year one either. But I would like their chances of being a solid playoff team. What about in a year or two though?
IMO much depends on player development of Ball, Ingram, Kuzma, Nance, Hart, Zubac, Bryant, etc. How much improvement can can be expected with a couple years experience by them and JC and Randle?
How much does that depth help in wins/losses over the next few seasons. In this case I am thinking smaller goals. Like competing for a playoff spot before worrying about top 3 consideration and a Championship.
Whichever path they take will be a risk. Always is. |
I think those guys are nice role players, but unlikely top 15 players (maybe BI has an outside shot). WE need to accumulate as much top 15 level talent as possible to even have a shot at being in the top 4 in the West.
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levon
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Joined: 11 Oct 2016
Posts: 10654
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| Damn, Russell must have really been the antichrist to get traded that early for a 2 max plan to hopefully come to fruition years later. |
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Super Mega Team
Star Player
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 3877
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| davidse wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | davidse wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | davidse wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Nate Duncan and Leroux in their podcast brought up an interesting theory. Nate doesn't think Lonzo/LBJ work out, and that if we got LBJ, they may have to trade Lonzo.
At this point, while I acknowledge that LBJ is the best player of the 2018 FAs, I may be leaning more to a PG13/Boogie/Jules/room exception summer b/c I think it's holistically a better fit all around. Of course I'll take LBJ if he comes but it would be interesting to see what happens with Lonzo with LBJ as he is a ball dominant player. Lonzo could play off ball but his shooting obviously leaves much to be desired. |
In any scenario where we get Boogie, it makes even less sense to keep Randle over Clarkson. |
unless Nance is moved? |
Nance + 10 mil $ in cap room > Randle.
Never mind minutes for Ingram and Kuzma. |
You won’t get a player of Randle’s caliber for $10 mil and if Ingram and Kuzma can’t earn minutes, that is on them. |
So now Nance is "magically" out of the equation, ha ?
Anyway, wrong way of looking at it.
You don't need to get a player of Randle's caliber for 10 mil $ for this to be a good move.
You need to be able to build a better roster with Nance, and an ADDITIONAL 10 mil $ in cap room (after already having signed Cousins) than you'd have with only Randle added to Cousins instead - which you absolutely will because there are only so many minutes to go around in the front court while the backcourt is super thin. |
He's not magically out of the equation but we do have a logjam in the front court and it will get worse the better Kuzma/BI play and improve.
As for the backcourt, it really depends on if we sign anyone else.
Ball Clarkson/Hart
PG or LBJ
PG/LBJ can take up minutes at the 2. So can Hart, Clarkson, and Lonzo. Let's say your free agent signing is PG, there really won't be many minutes available in the backcourt with Zo + PG. |
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RI Laker
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Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 7158
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:03 am Post subject: |
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It is fun speculating what is going to happen. I think PG is a Laker before the trading deadline (but I know nothing just like everyone else). I do believe the FO already knows via back channels of who they legitimately have chance of bringing into the fold.
One thing is for certain. The value of JC and JR has gone up tremendously since this past off season. It is a great problem to have. I am sure most would have helped pack their bags last off season if we had a chance of getting PG or Cousins. |
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davidse
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Joined: 03 Jul 2005
Posts: 14302
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| OC Lakerfan wrote: | | davidse wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | davidse wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | davidse wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Nate Duncan and Leroux in their podcast brought up an interesting theory. Nate doesn't think Lonzo/LBJ work out, and that if we got LBJ, they may have to trade Lonzo.
At this point, while I acknowledge that LBJ is the best player of the 2018 FAs, I may be leaning more to a PG13/Boogie/Jules/room exception summer b/c I think it's holistically a better fit all around. Of course I'll take LBJ if he comes but it would be interesting to see what happens with Lonzo with LBJ as he is a ball dominant player. Lonzo could play off ball but his shooting obviously leaves much to be desired. |
In any scenario where we get Boogie, it makes even less sense to keep Randle over Clarkson. |
unless Nance is moved? |
Nance + 10 mil $ in cap room > Randle.
Never mind minutes for Ingram and Kuzma. |
You won’t get a player of Randle’s caliber for $10 mil and if Ingram and Kuzma can’t earn minutes, that is on them. |
So now Nance is "magically" out of the equation, ha ?
Anyway, wrong way of looking at it.
You don't need to get a player of Randle's caliber for 10 mil $ for this to be a good move.
You need to be able to build a better roster with Nance, and an ADDITIONAL 10 mil $ in cap room (after already having signed Cousins) than you'd have with only Randle added to Cousins instead - which you absolutely will because there are only so many minutes to go around in the front court while the backcourt is super thin. |
He's not magically out of the equation but we do have a logjam in the front court and it will get worse the better Kuzma/BI play and improve.
As for the backcourt, it really depends on if we sign anyone else.
Ball Clarkson/Hart
PG or LBJ
PG/LBJ can take up minutes at the 2. So can Hart, Clarkson, and Lonzo. Let's say your free agent signing is PG, there really won't be many minutes available in the backcourt with Zo + PG. |
If your argument is that you need to get a better player than Randle for 10 mil $ for it to be a good move to let Randle go, then yes - Nance is "Magically" out of the equation which is -
Nance+10 mil $ in cap room >>>>> Randle if you already signed Cousins. |
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Four Decade Bandwagon
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Joined: 18 Jul 2014
Posts: 8160
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I don't think a long term team of just PG13 + JC/extended Jules is enough to be a top 3 team in the West. |
I wouldn't predict that year one either. But I would like their chances of being a solid playoff team. What about in a year or two though?
IMO much depends on player development of Ball, Ingram, Kuzma, Nance, Hart, Zubac, Bryant, etc. How much improvement can can be expected with a couple years experience by them and JC and Randle?
How much does that depth help in wins/losses over the next few seasons. In this case I am thinking smaller goals. Like competing for a playoff spot before worrying about top 3 consideration and a Championship.
Whichever path they take will be a risk. Always is. |
I think those guys are nice role players, but unlikely top 15 players (maybe BI has an outside shot). WE need to accumulate as much top 15 level talent as possible to even have a shot at being in the top 4 in the West. |
Fair enough. I am more optimistic about the growth of Ingram over the next couple years. Hopefully the consistent impact of Ball and Randle. And a deep roster with what looks like the building blocks of great team chemistry.
All supporting a top 15 player in George.
I just like the risk of a more long plan working. And from strictly a fan entertainment perspective, I prefer to see how this roster would develop over most of the win now plans with IMO a shorter window of opportunity. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I don't think a long term team of just PG13 + JC/extended Jules is enough to be a top 3 team in the West. |
I wouldn't predict that year one either. But I would like their chances of being a solid playoff team. What about in a year or two though?
IMO much depends on player development of Ball, Ingram, Kuzma, Nance, Hart, Zubac, Bryant, etc. How much improvement can can be expected with a couple years experience by them and JC and Randle?
How much does that depth help in wins/losses over the next few seasons. In this case I am thinking smaller goals. Like competing for a playoff spot before worrying about top 3 consideration and a Championship.
Whichever path they take will be a risk. Always is. |
I think those guys are nice role players, but unlikely top 15 players (maybe BI has an outside shot). WE need to accumulate as much top 15 level talent as possible to even have a shot at being in the top 4 in the West. |
Fair enough. I am more optimistic about the growth of Ingram over the next couple years. Hopefully the consistent impact of Ball and Randle. And a deep roster with what looks like the building blocks of great team chemistry.
All supporting a top 15 player in George.
I just like the risk of a more long plan working. And from strictly a fan entertainment perspective, I prefer to see how this roster would develop over most of the win now plans with IMO a shorter window of opportunity. |
But then what's the point of PG13 if we're a middling just-made-the-playoffs team? If you get PG13 chances are you're going to try to compete sooner so that means they will make moves to get another top 15 player.
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adkindo
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Joined: 16 Jun 2005
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Location: Dirty South
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| my guess is if the trading deadline passes, and George and Cousins remain on their current teams......those FO's at least feel they have an even or better chance at retaining them. Other FO's also have connections and back channels for insight. |
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davidse
Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2005
Posts: 14302
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I don't think a long term team of just PG13 + JC/extended Jules is enough to be a top 3 team in the West. |
I wouldn't predict that year one either. But I would like their chances of being a solid playoff team. What about in a year or two though?
IMO much depends on player development of Ball, Ingram, Kuzma, Nance, Hart, Zubac, Bryant, etc. How much improvement can can be expected with a couple years experience by them and JC and Randle?
How much does that depth help in wins/losses over the next few seasons. In this case I am thinking smaller goals. Like competing for a playoff spot before worrying about top 3 consideration and a Championship.
Whichever path they take will be a risk. Always is. |
I think those guys are nice role players, but unlikely top 15 players (maybe BI has an outside shot). WE need to accumulate as much top 15 level talent as possible to even have a shot at being in the top 4 in the West. |
Fair enough. I am more optimistic about the growth of Ingram over the next couple years. Hopefully the consistent impact of Ball and Randle. And a deep roster with what looks like the building blocks of great team chemistry.
All supporting a top 15 player in George.
I just like the risk of a more long plan working. And from strictly a fan entertainment perspective, I prefer to see how this roster would develop over most of the win now plans with IMO a shorter window of opportunity. |
But then what's the point of PG13 if we're a middling just-made-the-playoffs team? If you get PG13 chances are you're going to try to compete sooner so that means they will make moves to get another top 15 player. |
I think the best odds of truly contending for a title in the next few years is something like adding PG or PG+Cousins, and grooming enough young talent to be able to trade for AD or Giannis when they become available.
Imo, that is the championship play. |
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ToastedMuffins
Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Apr 2016
Posts: 589
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| King Randle wrote: | I know I maybe in the minority here, but I would keep both Randle and JC, stretch Deng and sign the rumored Lebron and Noel. I don't think Noel is deserving a max contract. Both Randle and JC are young and are really coming to their own. Their best years are still ahead of them.
Lebron
Ingram
Noel
KCP
Ball
Randle
JC
Kuzma
Nance |
After stretching Deng and signing LeBron to his max we'll only have $12.8 million to spread between Caldwell-Pope and Noel. That might be enough to get one of those players but probably not both. |
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32
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Joined: 04 Nov 2009
Posts: 73071
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | my guess is if the trading deadline passes, and George and Cousins remain on their current teams......those FO's at least feel they have an even or better chance at retaining them. Other FO's also have connections and back channels for insight. |
Not necessarily. I think the playoffs are the priority for both of those teams this season. Doesn't mean they will be able to retain them in free agency.
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Nobody in the NBA can touch the Laker brand, which, like the uniform color, is pure gold. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:28 am Post subject: |
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FWIW, I agree with Magic that they shouldn't be tied to 2 maxes, in fact, I didn't think they should go for that now anyway, given the teams that are currently out there. One of the reasons I didn't hate the MozDeng deals (although I wanted Deng's to be much shorter given the mileage) is that the Lakers have a great young core that needs to grow together for a few years before they are really ready to add the big piece or pieces, and you can then move more defined assets to get that done.
Ingram and Lonzo and Kuzma are a couple years away from being a couple years away from being core title pieces (although I think all of them have a great chance of being that), and I'd like to either have or extract the most value out of Randle Clarkson and Dlo, which you have the time to do if you're not salary dumping for a quick double max rebuild.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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ToastedMuffins
Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Apr 2016
Posts: 589
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | my guess is if the trading deadline passes, and George and Cousins remain on their current teams......those FO's at least feel they have an even or better chance at retaining them. Other FO's also have connections and back channels for insight. |
That may be true for New Orleans, but not for Oklahoma City.
OKC is essentially boxed in with George. They can't afford to retain him on a max salary because they will end up with a quarter million salary payroll from the repeater tax. They can't trade Carmelo because of his no-trade clause. They can't trade other players in salary dumps because they don't really have any picks to trade due to the Ted Stepien rule.
The only thing they can do is to trade George for a lesser expiring player like Greg Monroe and a pick but at that point, they're better off just keeping George and letting him walk. |
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adkindo
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Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 40345
Location: Dirty South
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| 32 wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | my guess is if the trading deadline passes, and George and Cousins remain on their current teams......those FO's at least feel they have an even or better chance at retaining them. Other FO's also have connections and back channels for insight. |
Not necessarily. I think the playoffs are the priority for both of those teams this season. Doesn't mean they will be able to retain them in free agency. |
right, nothing is for certain,,,,definitely not "my guesses"....but if I am GM and people are telling me that it is likely that Cousins is bolting, and I know I am capped out either way....I think I would consider some assets like Clarkson and Randle in return...or even Hart, Randle and Brewer. Same situation with George. It is just how I would act if in that position. |
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adkindo
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Location: Dirty South
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| not sure if anyone has noticed....but Jrue Holiday and E'Twaun Moore have been playing really well the last few weeks...and if they continue to play well in combination with AD remaining mostly healthy....the Pelicans have a chance to be pretty solid....and increase the chances they go all in with a commitment / offer to Cousins. |
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