Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein, and others
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:21 pm    Post subject:

I know we men are pig but holy moly!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:24 pm    Post subject:

Looks like the femnazis are coming out of the woodworks and are destroying any male in existence, my goodness.

Jk...
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:33 pm    Post subject:

Liger24Zero wrote:
Looks like the femnazis are coming out of the woodworks and are destroying any male in existence, my goodness.

Jk...

You won't last long around here kidding like that.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:14 pm    Post subject:

Takei issued a denial today with several tweets on his Twitter page.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:47 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
Takei issued a denial today with several tweets on his Twitter page.


George Takei Once Talked About Grabbing Men To ‘Persuade’ Them To Have Sex

“Did you ever grab anyone by the [bleep] against their will?” Stern asked at one point.

“Some people that are kind of … umm … skittish or maybe … um … afraid and you’re trying to persuade...” Takei said.


Ouch George . . . that's not good optics.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:40 pm    Post subject:

I'll throw this out there - not as an excuse or rationalization, but more of just an idea to ponder. While I understand the sexual dynamics between heterosexual men and women, and how those dynamics can be at play where their are power exchanges (such as in the workplace), I do not know nor am familiar with the sexual dynamics or norms between homosexual men. My limited experience is either based on third hand knowledge, or noticing the difference between interactions I perceive in a straight bar or club versus the differences in interactions I have seen while inside a gay bar or club.

As a straight man, unfamiliar with those dynamics, I wonder how sexual harassment differs (if at all) between two men compared to how it may appear between a heterosexual woman and a heterosexual man. As one example, domestic violence is more prominent among gay men than it is heterosexual couples. There may be cultural issues at play within the respective communities that have to incorporate some nuance in the ways the individuals of each community interact, and which may be applicable to how a harassment case amongst two gay men may look as well.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:16 pm    Post subject:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that "no" means "no" whether gay, straight or in between and that an attempt at coercion through uninvited sexual contact is inappropriate regardless of orientation.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:19 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that "no" means "no" whether gay, straight or in between and that an attempt at coercion through uninvited sexual contact is inappropriate regardless of orientation.


Well, yes... but the problem often with harassment, unlike sexual assault or rape, is that the word "no" isn't typically used. The power dynamic in the workplace often doesn't afford that kind of transparent resistance. If it did, we wouldn't be hearing these stories years later due to people being too afraid to resist at the time. Thus why your response isn't really relevant to the inquiry I was proposing.

What I'm bringing up is probably too nuanced to discuss here on a message board, with all of its limitations re: communication, anyway. It's more of an intellectual inquiry into what cultural norms and expectations exist within the context of social interactions and sexual solicitation in different communities. When one considers the changes in which society has persecuted/tolerated/accepted homosexuality over the last four decades, I wonder how those changes, depending on the decade, affected both social and sexual interactions, and normalized expectations within those interactions, being a member of the gay community. There could be no difference, or there could be a huge one (such as there is between a person born in America v. Iran, or one growing up as a millennial versus growing up as a baby boomer). I'm not in the position to know.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:50 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that "no" means "no" whether gay, straight or in between and that an attempt at coercion through uninvited sexual contact is inappropriate regardless of orientation.


Well, yes... but the problem often with harassment, unlike sexual assault or rape, is that the word "no" isn't typically used. The power dynamic in the workplace often doesn't afford that kind of transparent resistance. If it did, we wouldn't be hearing these stories years later due to people being too afraid to resist at the time. Thus why your response isn't really relevant to the inquiry I was proposing.

What I'm bringing up is probably too nuanced to discuss here on a message board, with all of its limitations re: communication, anyway. It's more of an intellectual inquiry into what cultural norms and expectations exist within the context of social interactions and sexual solicitation in different communities. When one considers the changes in which society has persecuted/tolerated/accepted homosexuality over the last four decades, I wonder how those changes, depending on the decade, affected both social and sexual interactions, and normalized expectations within those interactions, being a member of the gay community. There could be no difference, or there could be a huge one (such as there is between a person born in America v. Iran, or one growing up as a millennial versus growing up as a baby boomer). I'm not in the position to know.


I assume you bring up the gay aspect in respect to the George Takei story. I'd say that accusation is more of an assault situation as opposed to one of harassment. If you read the link I posted, Takei stated in the interview that the instances in which he admits to engaging in fondling men to "encourage" them to engage in sex that may not have been forthcoming did not take place in the workplace, nor did they involve a power dynamic. Now regardless of the possible difference in norms in the gay community in what behavior is acceptable, once a person feels violated, wouldn't expectations of what is normal be irrelevant. I would think so, which is why I stated the no means no point.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:01 pm    Post subject:

I agree that no means no. That's why my question wouldn't really be applicable to a situation where a "no" is given, but the gray lines that often arise in the less extreme examples of workplace harassment.

Also, I'm not sure I read his statements the same way you do. Maybe its because I like Takei and I'm showing some bias here, but it sounds to me like he's saying there were men who came to his home, were shy and that he would be more aggressive with them because, while it was consensual, that's what those partners needed from him. Could have been more than that and worse than that, but that's how I'm reading what he said based on reading your article just now.

Still, I'm not really referring to Takei's acts in that article, but, rather, workplace situations and harassment. It's a thought I initially had with Spacey, and Takei being brought up as a gay man who may have also engaged in a form of workplace harassment (which is the current accusation outside of your article, no?) just rekindled that thought in my head.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:10 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Spacey himself said that there would likely be more accusations coming out against him:

Former TV Anchor Says Kevin Spacey Sexually Assaulted Her 18-Year-Old Son


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Last edited by 55 on Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:23 pm    Post subject:

Attorneys are having a field day with all these accusations flying about; allegations and defamation cases are going to be a headache to sort through.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:32 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
What I'm bringing up is probably too nuanced to discuss here on a message board, with all of its limitations re: communication, anyway. It's more of an intellectual inquiry into what cultural norms and expectations exist within the context of social interactions and sexual solicitation in different communities.


Yes, it is probably too nuanced for a message board. There are additional elements created by the cultural changes over the last four decades. Behavior that might have been acceptable in 1981 may be unacceptable today.

On a separate note, I've been a bit bemused by the way that the larger discussion has shifted from power relationships (Weinstein) to interactions that do not involve a power dynamic. This is not to suggest that people get a free pass if there is no power dynamic involved, but there are different considerations involved. This may also be too nuanced for a message board.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:45 pm    Post subject:

I don't think the discussion has transitioned to sexual assault. It's just that those being accused of being harassers, seem to also have a history of sexual assault.. which makes some sense. Someone you have power over is an easier mark, being less likely to resist.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:04 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
I agree that no means no. That's why my question wouldn't really be applicable to a situation where a "no" is given, but the gray lines that often arise in the less extreme examples of workplace harassment.

Also, I'm not sure I read his statements the same way you do. Maybe its because I like Takei and I'm showing some bias here, but it sounds to me like he's saying there were men who came to his home, were shy and that he would be more aggressive with them because, while it was consensual, that's what those partners needed from him. Could have been more than that and worse than that, but that's how I'm reading what he said based on reading your article just now.

Still, I'm not really referring to Takei's acts in that article, but, rather, workplace situations and harassment. It's a thought I initially had with Spacey, and Takei being brought up as a gay man who may have also engaged in a form of workplace harassment (which is the current accusation outside of your article, no?) just rekindled that thought in my head.


I like George as well. I posted the article because in light of the accusations, his comments become of interest whether what he is discussing is consensual or (and believe him when he says it was). But those comments are going viewed by many as damning in regards to the accusation, hence the "optics" comment.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:26 pm    Post subject:

Is it wrong to wonder if this new environment can lead to malicious and false accusations, and if so...is that person basically screwed? How do we support the actual victims while still protecting against false accusations that will destroy lives and careers? There are plenty of crazies out there, it's bound to happen.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:52 am    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
I agree that no means no. That's why my question wouldn't really be applicable to a situation where a "no" is given, but the gray lines that often arise in the less extreme examples of workplace harassment.

Also, I'm not sure I read his statements the same way you do. Maybe its because I like Takei and I'm showing some bias here, but it sounds to me like he's saying there were men who came to his home, were shy and that he would be more aggressive with them because, while it was consensual, that's what those partners needed from him. Could have been more than that and worse than that, but that's how I'm reading what he said based on reading your article just now.

Still, I'm not really referring to Takei's acts in that article, but, rather, workplace situations and harassment. It's a thought I initially had with Spacey, and Takei being brought up as a gay man who may have also engaged in a form of workplace harassment (which is the current accusation outside of your article, no?) just rekindled that thought in my head.


Ok. But I don't see where a community or cultural norm really has a bearing - particularly in the workplace. Let's say you work at a place that is predominantly gay male - like say a website geared for the gay community where the hiring is focused on hiring from those in the community - not out of discrimination, but hiring like-minded people. So now you have a group of co-wokers who should be familiar with the norms of acceptable behavior within that community.

Let's say that one of the head Producers starts to flirt with one of the staff writers. He thinks it is innocent and fun and the writer kind of brushes it off for fear of alienating the Producer. This unwanted attention continues and the type of comments escalate to more titilating and graphic ones because the Producer "assumes" it is acceptable because there's been no obvious push back from the writer and the rest of the staff seems to have no problem with it. Meanwhile, the writer has become more uncomfortable and fearful of reprisal because it all seems so acceptable to those around him.

I'm not an expert on the subject and certainly not a legalese, but everything I have heard in the several Sexual Harassment Seminars that companies I worked for have required over the years is that one's intent doesn't matter, the location or time don't matter (comments made on social media that reference a coworker for example), nor does the genders or orientations matter. If someone is feeling sexually harassed it is an issue that is actionable and in essence, the victim and the circumstances determine when the line has been crossed - not cultural norms . . . am I incorrect in that (honest question)?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:09 am    Post subject:

Read an article about why we don't call out people's BS

our first human response is that we don't want to hurt their feelings

Hopefully our culture can strengthen individuals so they speak up the very first time something seems not right

and I don't want more victims but this needs to EXPLODE so people find a cure for this (bleep)

Could you imagine being a single mother barely making rent with two kids and two jobs and a boss harassing you for sexual favors.. knowing you may not make it to your next paycheck if you lose this job etc etc

29 year old teacher bangs 16 year old student
Check your mental opinion you create while you change the genders of each person.

our opinions as a collective species look worse upon the male teacher than the female teacher
think the girl will be messed up and the boy got a notch on his belt

People need to be more comfortable about sex and more comfortable to say "No, this is not for me.. thank you."

need to cure things not just demonize the acts
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:05 am    Post subject:

DMR, it's not a topic I'm capable of discussing on here. Just too much to type and too complicated to discuss in this format. Wish I could, but just the thought of how much typing would be involved is exhausting.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:12 am    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
DMR, it's not a topic I'm capable of discussing on here. Just too much to type and too complicated to discuss in this format. Wish I could, but just the thought of how much typing would be involved is exhausting.


Alright Mr. Lazy
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:22 am    Post subject:

Ted wrote:
Is it wrong to wonder if this new environment can lead to malicious and false accusations, and if so...is that person basically screwed? How do we support the actual victims while still protecting against false accusations that will destroy lives and careers? There are plenty of crazies out there, it's bound to happen.


Some friends and I were just talking about this yesterday. How do you give the proper presumption of innocence and truth to both the accuser and the accused pending the evidence?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:54 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Ted wrote:
Is it wrong to wonder if this new environment can lead to malicious and false accusations, and if so...is that person basically screwed? How do we support the actual victims while still protecting against false accusations that will destroy lives and careers? There are plenty of crazies out there, it's bound to happen.


Some friends and I were just talking about this yesterday. How do you give the proper presumption of innocence and truth to both the accuser and the accused pending the evidence?


Here's another problem - for celebrities or those with notable public profiles, the mere allegation of a serious charge harassment or sexual misconduct can be as life changing as any actual harassment. However, that's not true for the average manager or supervisor or owner because those people, outside the public limelight, aren't held accountable by the court of public opinion. While the public seems to implement a presumption of guilt, private companies, in my experience, seem to implement a presumption of innocence.

As all of these situations demonstrate - whether it be Spacey, Weinstein, Ratner, O'Reilly, etc. - companies will protect those who continue to earn them money until that people can no longer do so. This is where lawsuits and enforcing laws as they were intended matter most, because 99% of these cases will never see the 6 o'clock news.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:06 pm    Post subject:

Ted wrote:
Is it wrong to wonder if this new environment can lead to malicious and false accusations, and if so...is that person basically screwed? How do we support the actual victims while still protecting against false accusations that will destroy lives and careers? There are plenty of crazies out there, it's bound to happen.

That's something that bothers me. A false accusation can ruin someones life.

Even if it's proven to be false the seed will have been planted. Some may find that difficult to cope with. LINK
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:42 pm    Post subject:

Somebody on reddit said it's almost as if Hugh Hefner was projecting a force-field that protected creepy famous men, and with his death they were suddenly exposed
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:16 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Ted wrote:
Is it wrong to wonder if this new environment can lead to malicious and false accusations, and if so...is that person basically screwed? How do we support the actual victims while still protecting against false accusations that will destroy lives and careers? There are plenty of crazies out there, it's bound to happen.

That's something that bothers me. A false accusation can ruin someones life.

Even if it's proven to be false the seed will have been planted. Some may find that difficult to cope with. LINK


I'm not worried about false accusations in general. That just happens, and it isn't limited to sex crimes. I'm worried about the feeding frenzy in the media right now.
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