Sexual Harassment Accusations (9/25: Cosby sentenced 3-10 years in state prison)
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jodeke
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:49 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
jodeke wrote:
I don't believe you'd sacrifice your licence as 24 laid reason.
Quote:
What if you had a boss that wanted you to perform embarrassing favors for him, and if you didn't, you'd never practice law in any real way again? Still a business decision? No coercion?


I'm not talking sexual favors. If you thought you'd lose your license if you didn't shine his shoes or some other embarrassing task to take your manhood, dignity, you'd send him to the local dentist.


What the hell are you talking about? 24's analogy was already pretty stretched, but you're making it downright silly. Now I'm being asked to shine my boss's shoes or I can never practice law again. Really? Maybe you've got some unusual tastes, but shining shoes is not a sex act for most of us.

Leave out shining shoes, insert embarrassing acts. I prefaced I'm not talking sex.


This is a thread about sexual harassment and abuse. It isn't a thread about embarrassing acts. I played along with 24's analogy because, even though it was implausible that something like that would (or even could) happen in the legal business, the analogy was relevant and I understood the point. You are taking it to a place where it is not relevant and has no point. I am not going to chase you around through a bunch of weird hypothetical scenarios.


You're right the thread is about sexual harassment. I'm talking integrity. I based it on Selma being embarrassed. That's a deviation.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:18 pm    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
The Aziz story is not sexual misconduct or assault. It was simply an awkward date. You can't consensually give someone 2 BJs and let him eat you out then later on retroactively take consent away.


This has been my concern for awhile. We are treading very dangerously into waters where regrettable sex is being re-imagined as rape or sexual misconduct.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:51 am    Post subject:

I'll have to admit I didn't realize so many women of stature were being assaulted. If there are so many of stature, how many everyday ordinary women are victims? This revelation to me is disturbing and disgusting.

Dylan Farrow details her sexual assault allegations against Woody Allen

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:57 am    Post subject:

^^^^

Dylan Farrow might be telling the truth, but frankly I discount stories that come out of domestic battlegrounds like the Woody Allen-Mia Farrow mess. I just assume that everyone is lying and that God will sort them out later on. The fact that Dylan Farrow has to tell the media "I am credible" tells you everything you need to know.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:06 pm    Post subject:

@AH Are you playing Devils Advocate or is this just the lawyer in you? I get a sense of one who is suspicious of sexual assault charges in general.

I started this thread over 4 months ago and new allegations surface almost daily.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:47 pm    Post subject:

No, I am not playing devil’s advocate. I am not inclined to believe anything that comes out of the Farrow family. It could very well be true, but I have seen way too many situations in which bogus allegations come out of nasty domestic disputes. The credibility of all of those people, including Woody Allen, is suspect at best. There are plenty of credible cases out there to talk about.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:46 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
^^^^

Dylan Farrow might be telling the truth, but frankly I discount stories that come out of domestic battlegrounds like the Woody Allen-Mia Farrow mess. I just assume that everyone is lying and that God will sort them out later on. The fact that Dylan Farrow has to tell the media "I am credible" tells you everything you need to know.


Yeah . . . that her adopted father has exploited his position of celebrity to besmirch her credibility and it has been effective for all the wrong reasons as is demonstrated by comments such as " I am not inclined to believe anything that comes out of the Farrow family" . . .

Of course the woman is defensive, and for all the right reasons.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:31 am    Post subject:

Woody Allen married Soon-Yi Previn. They've been married since 1997 Wasn't that his step daughter?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:49 pm    Post subject:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/01/25/nfl-contends-jami-cantor-consented-to-alleged-sexual-harassment/

Quote:
NFL contends Jami Cantor consented to alleged sexual harassment
Posted by Mike Florio on January 25, 2018, 6:04 PM EST

Getty Images
The NFL, through it’s in-house TV network, faces a sexual harassment lawsuit that has resulted in the suspension of three on-air employees, including Hall of Fame running back Marshall Faulk. The NFL has now filed a formal response to the claims made by Jami Cantor last month.

Via TMZ, which does not share a link to the full document, the NFL contends that Cantor “approved, consented to, authorized, and/or ratified” the raunchy words and behaviors that allegedly took place. Although a full analysis of the NFL’s filing is required (we’ve asked the league for a copy of the document), the snippet provided by TMZ isn’t a surprise. Companies accused in court of sexual harassment always deny it, especially at first. (And if they’re not willing to deny it, they quickly settle the case before they have to admit it.)


Like all other successful businesses, getting sued is a cost of doing business, and the league has lawyers and law firms trained in the business of cobbling together the various snippets of cookie-cutter lawyer-talk on a $500-per-hour assembly line that spits out a smattering of phrases like a doll with a string that gets pulled to make it talk.

At the heart of it all: Admit nothing. Agree to nothing. Deny everything. And at the very worst, claim ignorance.

Basically, the initial filing from a defendant in a case like this means nothing. What matters is whether the defendant has a legal argument that would provide a potential silver bullet to the entire lawsuit (or to some of the specific claims). Once that all gets sorted out, the focus becomes the so-called discovery process, where documents are exchanged and questions are answered in writing and witnesses are grilled under oath.

For now, the most important development (or lack thereof) continues to be that Faulk, Heath Evans, and Ike Taylor continue to be suspended. Which means that the league has yet to conclude that they are blameless or otherwise suited to return to work. The longer they remain off the job, the more probable than not that some or all of Cantor’s allegations have merit — and that the NFL has legal and financial exposure.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:39 pm    Post subject:

#metoo has jumped the shark

They're even going after men who are trying to support them. It's gotten way out of hand. Male celebrities should just keep their mouths shut and not utter one word of support for the movement. If they do, people will dig through their past and find something to hammer them on.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:06 pm    Post subject:

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-rising-pressure-of-the-metoo-backlash

Quote:
From the beginning, there’s been a reflexive cry: we shouldn’t lump all male misbehavior together. There has been little insistence on parsing and making room for the gradations of women’s resistance. When women push back on sexual misconduct, the viability of the entire movement seems to hinge on each act.


I liked this quote. Even if some claims might be dubious (Aziz comes to mind), I disagree with the idea that somehow #metoo is going off the rails. With any movement like this will be people jumping on the bandwagon. That doesn't make the movement any less credible or valid overall.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:22 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-rising-pressure-of-the-metoo-backlash

Quote:
From the beginning, there’s been a reflexive cry: we shouldn’t lump all male misbehavior together. There has been little insistence on parsing and making room for the gradations of women’s resistance. When women push back on sexual misconduct, the viability of the entire movement seems to hinge on each act.


I liked this quote. Even if some claims might be dubious (Aziz comes to mind), I disagree with the idea that somehow #metoo is going off the rails. With any movement like this will be people jumping on the bandwagon. That doesn't make the movement any less credible or valid overall.


Even in that article, the writer turned her experience with the doctor into a type of victimization when the doctor did nothing wrong. I'm guessing the writer is a 20 something female millennial.

There should definitely be accountability for the scumbags of society who prey on women and the #metoo movement has good aspects of it but once they start lumping innocent men into their web, destroying lives and careers, it's going to lose steam very very fast.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:30 am    Post subject:

Ted wrote:
tox wrote:
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-rising-pressure-of-the-metoo-backlash

Quote:
From the beginning, there’s been a reflexive cry: we shouldn’t lump all male misbehavior together. There has been little insistence on parsing and making room for the gradations of women’s resistance. When women push back on sexual misconduct, the viability of the entire movement seems to hinge on each act.


I liked this quote. Even if some claims might be dubious (Aziz comes to mind), I disagree with the idea that somehow #metoo is going off the rails. With any movement like this will be people jumping on the bandwagon. That doesn't make the movement any less credible or valid overall.


Even in that article, the writer turned her experience with the doctor into a type of victimization when the doctor did nothing wrong. I'm guessing the writer is a 20 something female millennial.

There should definitely be accountability for the scumbags of society who prey on women and the #metoo movement has good aspects of it but once they start lumping innocent men into their web, destroying lives and careers, it's going to lose steam very very fast.


Well, that's missing the point entirely. Oh well.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:38 am    Post subject:

Ted wrote:
#metoo has jumped the shark

They're even going after men who are trying to support them. It's gotten way out of hand. Male celebrities should just keep their mouths shut and not utter one word of support for the movement. If they do, people will dig through their past and find something to hammer them on.


This has gotten way out of control.

I have a problem with the idea that someone can come forward decades later and accuse someone of this and it ruin their life. The person accused has no real way of defending themselves. I have a problem with that. And if you've even looked at a woman cross-eyed in the last 50 years, you are vulnerable. I have a problem with that. Men are losing everything behind ACCUSATIONS. I have a problem with that. This #metoo nonsense has COMPLETELY gone off the rails.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:44 am    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
Ted wrote:
#metoo has jumped the shark

They're even going after men who are trying to support them. It's gotten way out of hand. Male celebrities should just keep their mouths shut and not utter one word of support for the movement. If they do, people will dig through their past and find something to hammer them on.


This has gotten way out of control.

I have a problem with the idea that someone can come forward decades later and accuse someone of this and it ruin their life. The person accused has no real way of defending themselves. I have a problem with that. And if you've even looked at a woman cross-eyed in the last 50 years, you are vulnerable. I have a problem with that. Men are losing everything behind ACCUSATIONS. I have a problem with that. This #metoo nonsense has COMPLETELY gone off the rails.


A concern I voiced early in the thread. If your high school boyfriend dumped you this is your chance for revenge. This is a exaggeration but I think my point is understood.

This thread was started Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:59 pm and new accusations are almost a daily occurrence. It's gone way beyond the casting couch.

What we're seeing is mostly related to celebrities. How many every day Joe's are being rightfully or wrongfully castigated? How deep is the well?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:01 pm    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
Ted wrote:
#metoo has jumped the shark

They're even going after men who are trying to support them. It's gotten way out of hand. Male celebrities should just keep their mouths shut and not utter one word of support for the movement. If they do, people will dig through their past and find something to hammer them on.


This has gotten way out of control.

I have a problem with the idea that someone can come forward decades later and accuse someone of this and it ruin their life. The person accused has no real way of defending themselves. I have a problem with that. And if you've even looked at a woman cross-eyed in the last 50 years, you are vulnerable. I have a problem with that. Men are losing everything behind ACCUSATIONS. I have a problem with that. This #metoo nonsense has COMPLETELY gone off the rails.



I stopped taking it seriously after the first week of this.

There's going to be a major backlash vs women when all is said and done.

Its sad to say as a woman but its becoming comical at this point with some of these stories.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:39 pm    Post subject:

A passing comment on the Nasser scandal: How in the hell did this creep get away with it for so long with so many girls? I am not a gymnastics fan, but it has occurred to me many times that women’s gymnastics is a pedophile’s dream. I expect that most people, men and women, have had thoughts along those lines. We have a bunch of girls and young women in an incredibly vulnerable environment. We have had accusations of sexual abuse in the past. How in the world did the gymnastics community fail to have strict and pervasive safeguards in place to stop something like this? This is especially true after the Sandusky scandal, but even then, women’s gymnastics is such an obvious target for sexual predators that everyone involved should have been watching for warning signs.

So now we’re cleaning house at US Gymnastics and at MSU. That’s great and well deserved, but how in the world did we even get to this point?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:54 pm    Post subject:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/wonder-years-mom-alley-mills-show-canceled-due-ridiculous-fred-savage-harassment-lawsuit-194709096.html

Quote:
'Wonder Years' mom Alley Mills: Show canceled due to 'ridiculous' Fred Savage harassment lawsuit

The Wonder Years premiered on ABC. The coming-of-age dramedy, set in the late ’60s and early ’70s, aired from 1988 to 1993, yet covered themes that remain relevant today. The series is still beloved by many; in 2016, Rolling Stone ranked The Wonder Years No. 63 on its list of 100 Greatest TV Shows of All Time.

So why did the popular show — which won four Emmys and was nominated for dozens of awards during its tenure — really end after Season 6?

Twenty-five years before the #MeToo and Time’s Up movements swept Hollywood, the show was rocked by its own sexual harassment scandal — a scandal that, according to explosive allegations from one of the show’s stars, played a major role in the show’s cancellation.

Alley Mills, who played Fred Savage’s TV mom, Norma Arnold, sat down with Yahoo ahead of next week’s anniversary of the show’s debut and claimed for the first time that a lawsuit led to the show’s demise.

The Wonder Years was going to be renewed,” Mills says, as seen in the video above. “And that’s because of a completely ridiculous sexual harassment suit that was going on against Fred Savage — who is, like, the least offensive, most wonderful, sweet human being that ever walked the face of the Earth.”" data-reactid="29" style="margin-bottom: 1em;">“When we shot the series finale … nobody knew whether or not The Wonder Years was going to be renewed,” Mills says, as seen in the video above. “And that’s because of a completely ridiculous sexual harassment suit that was going on against Fred Savage — who is, like, the least offensive, most wonderful, sweet human being that ever walked the face of the Earth.”


“So I just thought [the lawsuit] was a big joke and it was going to blow over,” Mills recalls. “It’s a little bit like what’s happening now — some innocent people can get caught up in this stuff; it’s very tricky. It was so not true. It was my dresser, and I don’t care if she’s listening — I probably shouldn’t be telling this, but I don’t care because it was so long ago and it’s gotta be over now.”

Mills claims that she “wasn’t allowed to talk” back then about the lawsuit, “which made me so upset. We had a gag order on us, and I wanted to scream on television, ‘This is ridiculous!’”

The lawsuit was dropped after an undisclosed out-of-court settlement was reached, a move that the actress alleges their network, ABC, was behind. “I just thought this was a joke. You know, they bought her off, which really made me mad,” she says. “That was incorrigible that the network did that; they should never have paid her off. They wanted to avoid a scandal or something, but it made them look guilty. You know, you don’t pay someone off when there was no crime, you just fire the girl.”


Jason Hervey, left, Fred Savage, and Alley Mills in the 1992 episode “Let Nothing You Dismay.” (Photo: ABC Photo Archives/ABC via Getty Images)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:56 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
A passing comment on the Nasser scandal: How in the hell did this creep get away with it for so long with so many girls? I am not a gymnastics fan, but it has occurred to me many times that women’s gymnastics is a pedophile’s dream. I expect that most people, men and women, have had thoughts along those lines. We have a bunch of girls and young women in an incredibly vulnerable environment. We have had accusations of sexual abuse in the past. How in the world did the gymnastics community fail to have strict and pervasive safeguards in place to stop something like this? This is especially true after the Sandusky scandal, but even then, women’s gymnastics is such an obvious target for sexual predators that everyone involved should have been watching for warning signs.

So now we’re cleaning house at US Gymnastics and at MSU. That’s great and well deserved, but how in the world did we even get to this point?



The same reason it went so long in Penn State. $$$ was involved.

If it weren't this would've come out sooner I think its a large part of why Hollywood has all these stories coming out. They aren't making the $$$ they used to.

Plus there are parents who would sell their kids down the river for personal gain so looking the other way with this isn't too surprising.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:13 pm    Post subject:

^^^^

That's all true, but it's still hard for me to comprehend. The money and the parents have been part of the picture for a long time. I would have assumed that women's gymnastics, in particular, had pervasive safeguards against something like this. Obviously, this was not the case.

I am guessing that all of these committee members who are resigning are people from the gymnastics community. People within a community like that are often blinded by "the way we have always done things" and by personal relationships. We may need to mandate that organizations like that have at least one ombudsman from outside of the community who is responsible for making sure that issues of sexual abuse, physical abuse, and safety are being handled objectively.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:46 am    Post subject:

Another accusation. This happened 13 years ago 2005. I'm troubled by allegations that happened long ago. Not saying they didn't happen. Wynn was RNC Finance Chairman, a fiend of Trump. He resigned his position.

Vegas mogul Steve Wynn to face reviews after report alleges sexual misconduct

LINK

Quote:
The most egregious allegation against Wynn in the Journal report comes from a manicurist who claims Wynn forced her into sex in 2005. She alleges Wynn pressured her to remove her clothes and lie down on a massage table in his private suite after she had given him a manicure.


Quote:

“The idea that I ever assaulted any woman is preposterous," he told the Journal. “We find ourselves in a world where people can make allegations, regardless of the truth, and a person is left with the choice of weathering insulting publicity or engaging in multi-year lawsuits. It is deplorable for anyone to find themselves in this situation.”

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:58 am    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
Ted wrote:
#metoo has jumped the shark

They're even going after men who are trying to support them. It's gotten way out of hand. Male celebrities should just keep their mouths shut and not utter one word of support for the movement. If they do, people will dig through their past and find something to hammer them on.


This has gotten way out of control.

I have a problem with the idea that someone can come forward decades later and accuse someone of this and it ruin their life. The person accused has no real way of defending themselves. I have a problem with that. And if you've even looked at a woman cross-eyed in the last 50 years, you are vulnerable. I have a problem with that. Men are losing everything behind ACCUSATIONS. I have a problem with that. This #metoo nonsense has COMPLETELY gone off the rails.

Weren't the Roy Moore allegations decades later?
I still think the problem isn't #metoo. Maybe people need a more tempered reaction to accusations instead of kneejerk reacting that the person is guilty and should be removed. In your post, the operative word for me is "someone." Not to invalidate people's accusations a priori, but I imagine that most people who abuse their power at least once will do it again.

But I don't see why the backlash should be to #metoo instead of just a more critical examination of the court of opinion here. Certainly women shouldn't be discouraged from coming forward, even if that means some people will ride the coattails for dubious reasons.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:29 pm    Post subject:

That’s a fair point. However, we live in an age of social media and anonymous outrage. The court of opinion is a hanging court. #metoo exists in that environment, and it would be hard to separate one from the other. It was inevitable that there would be a backlash against #metoo.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:53 pm    Post subject:

Burns Strider.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:05 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
That’s a fair point. However, we live in an age of social media and anonymous outrage. The court of opinion is a hanging court. #metoo exists in that environment, and it would be hard to separate one from the other. It was inevitable that there would be a backlash against #metoo.

Yeah. I absolutely agree with your description here. My opinion is of how things should be, not how they inevitably will be (and are).
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