How will history remember Dwight Howard?
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:52 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
I don't think Paul is thought that highly -- he's usually behind Oscar, Stockton, and Isiah, and then a bunch of guys (including Paul) who people argue about. But, sure, Paul is higher on the list of PGs than Howard is on centers, but that's mostly because there have been a lot more great centers than point guards.


Yep. I rate Paul higher than most people. I'd put him fourth behind Magic, Oscar, and Stockton. But the drop off is fairly sharp after Magic. It's an historical curiosity that great PGs rarely win titles in their prime. This may lead Curry to end up rated a lot higher than a lot of people expect.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:51 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
activeverb wrote:
I don't think Paul is thought that highly -- he's usually behind Oscar, Stockton, and Isiah, and then a bunch of guys (including Paul) who people argue about. But, sure, Paul is higher on the list of PGs than Howard is on centers, but that's mostly because there have been a lot more great centers than point guards.


Yep. I rate Paul higher than most people. I'd put him fourth behind Magic, Oscar, and Stockton. But the drop off is fairly sharp after Magic. It's an historical curiosity that great PGs rarely win titles in their prime. This may lead Curry to end up rated a lot higher than a lot of people expect.


really? I would put Gary Peyton over CP3 as well as Isiah Thomas...
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:43 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
activeverb wrote:
I don't think Paul is thought that highly -- he's usually behind Oscar, Stockton, and Isiah, and then a bunch of guys (including Paul) who people argue about. But, sure, Paul is higher on the list of PGs than Howard is on centers, but that's mostly because there have been a lot more great centers than point guards.


Yep. I rate Paul higher than most people. I'd put him fourth behind Magic, Oscar, and Stockton. But the drop off is fairly sharp after Magic. It's an historical curiosity that great PGs rarely win titles in their prime. This may lead Curry to end up rated a lot higher than a lot of people expect.


Point guards are Magic and then everybody else. He's the only point guard who's had a lot of playoff success, and a lot of the great Point cards have flamed out in the playoffs. You may be right because of that Kareem a ultimately be number 2 on the list
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:05 am    Post subject:

Once you get past Magic, there are a bunch of PGs that you can argue about. Oscar is usually #2, but that may start to change. His ranking was based primarily on the mystique of his triple-double season. Now Westbrook has posted a triple-double season under more difficult conditions in terms of game pace and competition. Anyway, I would rank Paul over Isiah and Payton, but I acknowledge that I rank Paul higher (and Isiah lower) than most people.

AV's point is that there have been a lot more great centers than great PGs. Set aside Magic for the moment. Is there any other PG would you would rank above Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, or Hakeem? And then you have Robinson, M. Malone, and Ewing. You can make an argument that every one of those guys was greater than any PG other than Magic. And then you come to the oddities, Mikan and Walton.

So no, Dwight Howard is not a top 10 center. But a PG with equivalent credentials would have an argument for top 10 status.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:26 am    Post subject:

Where's 2 time MVP, 2 rings and still under 30 Steph st currently?

Dwight... I have Alonzo Mourning ahead of him
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:27 am    Post subject:

Like a Joe Barry Carroll, at most.

Or simply forgotten, as no one will invite him to perform any job in any Franchise.
Given the amount of children, he'll soon go bankrupt, and his possessions closed due to unpaid child support.

Maybe 10 years down the line, we get some report he found God and has a stable job as a janitor, or whatever.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject:

When he got ejected from his final game and Kobe came out to sit with the bench, that spoke volumes about Dwight.

Doesn't have the heart of a champion.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:00 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Where's 2 time MVP, 2 rings and still under 30 Steph st currently?

Dwight... I have Alonzo Mourning ahead of him


In terms of overall career accomplishments I'd put Howard and Mourning as pretty equivalent, though obviously it's easier to like Mourning. (And while things look pretty bleak for Howard right now, he could still play for several years so you never know what he might do and how his career might close out.) That said, neither is anywhere close to being one of the top 10 centers of all time, so I can't say I've really given a lot of deep thought to how I drank guys at that level
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:06 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Where's 2 time MVP, 2 rings and still under 30 Steph st currently?

Dwight... I have Alonzo Mourning ahead of him


It's hard to rank a player at mid-career. If Curry suffered a catastrophic injury tomorrow and never played another game, he would be in the Bill Walton zone. Some people would rank him in the top 10, while others would rage that he had too short of a career. If his career continues on a reasonable progression, he'll end up in the top 5, maybe as high as #2.

As for Dwight, it depends on what you value. At his peak, he was playing at a bona fide MVP level, and in fact he should have won it over Rose in my opinion. Mourning actually finished high in the MVP voting a couple times, and his career progression resembles Howards' in a lot of ways. It appears that Howard is going to have more high level seasons than Mourning when all is said and done. On the other hand, Mourning was never a whiny pain in the butt like Howard. If I had to pick one of them for my team, I'd pick Mourning.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
governator wrote:
Where's 2 time MVP, 2 rings and still under 30 Steph st currently?

Dwight... I have Alonzo Mourning ahead of him


In terms of overall career accomplishments I'd put Howard and Mourning as pretty equivalent, though obviously it's easier to like Mourning. (And while things look pretty bleak for Howard right now, he could still play for several years so you never know what he might do and how his career might close out.) That said, neither is anywhere close to being one of the top 10 centers of all time, so I can't say I've really given a lot of deep thought to how I drank guys at that level


This is a goof comparison. Zo's stats are better than DW's even after all those years injured / reduced.

Zo could be a douche bag, but he cared about winning, and worked his @ss off. And had skills.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject:

carlosLisboa wrote:


This is a goof comparison. Zo's stats are better than DW's even after all those years injured / reduced.
.



Not sure what method you're using to determine Zo's stats were better. If you want to use their primes (which would probably be Mourning's first 8 years, and Howard's years 3-10), I don't see much statistical difference. Mourning has an edge in scoring and blocks, Howard in rebounding and shooting percentage.

Personally, Iíd take Mourning because Howard is so annoying. But I canít say Mourningís objective accomplishment really pass Howard. Iíd put them on the same tier, and I could see why different people would rank one above the other.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:41 am    Post subject:

Shawn kemp 2.0
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:15 am    Post subject:

As the world's greatest monster.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:16 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:


This is a goof comparison. Zo's stats are better than DW's even after all those years injured / reduced.
.



Not sure what method you're using to determine Zo's stats were better. If you want to use their primes (which would probably be Mourning's first 8 years, and Howard's years 3-10), I don't see much statistical difference. Mourning has an edge in scoring and blocks, Howard in rebounding and shooting percentage.

Personally, Iíd take Mourning because Howard is so annoying. But I canít say Mourningís objective accomplishment really pass Howard. Iíd put them on the same tier, and I could see why different people would rank one above the other.


Scoring, yes.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:06 am    Post subject:

carlosLisboa wrote:
activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:


This is a goof comparison. Zo's stats are better than DW's even after all those years injured / reduced.
.



Not sure what method you're using to determine Zo's stats were better. If you want to use their primes (which would probably be Mourning's first 8 years, and Howard's years 3-10), I don't see much statistical difference. Mourning has an edge in scoring and blocks, Howard in rebounding and shooting percentage.

Personally, Iíd take Mourning because Howard is so annoying. But I canít say Mourningís objective accomplishment really pass Howard. Iíd put them on the same tier, and I could see why different people would rank one above the other.


Scoring, yes.



Mourning was a better scorer, but it really wasn't by that much.

During his first 8 years Mourning averaged about 21.5 ppg. with a high of 23.2 ppg.

During his prime, Howard averaged about 20 ppg. with a high of 22.9.

Scoring really wasn't the reason either of them were a star. The calling card for both of them was defense. In fact, only one time in his career did Mourning finish in the top 10 in the league in scoring.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:42 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:
activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:


This is a goof comparison. Zo's stats are better than DW's even after all those years injured / reduced.
.



Not sure what method you're using to determine Zo's stats were better. If you want to use their primes (which would probably be Mourning's first 8 years, and Howard's years 3-10), I don't see much statistical difference. Mourning has an edge in scoring and blocks, Howard in rebounding and shooting percentage.

Personally, Iíd take Mourning because Howard is so annoying. But I canít say Mourningís objective accomplishment really pass Howard. Iíd put them on the same tier, and I could see why different people would rank one above the other.


Scoring, yes.



Mourning was a better scorer, but it really wasn't by that much.

During his first 8 years Mourning averaged about 21.5 ppg. with a high of 23.2 ppg.

During his prime, Howard averaged about 20 ppg. with a high of 22.9.

Scoring really wasn't the reason either of them were a star. The calling card for both of them was defense. In fact, only one time in his career did Mourning finish in the top 10 in the league in scoring.


Morning had skills, even a decent J as the Celtics well remember.
Dwight can't even shoot from 5ft.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:42 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:
activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:


This is a goof comparison. Zo's stats are better than DW's even after all those years injured / reduced.
.



Not sure what method you're using to determine Zo's stats were better. If you want to use their primes (which would probably be Mourning's first 8 years, and Howard's years 3-10), I don't see much statistical difference. Mourning has an edge in scoring and blocks, Howard in rebounding and shooting percentage.

Personally, Iíd take Mourning because Howard is so annoying. But I canít say Mourningís objective accomplishment really pass Howard. Iíd put them on the same tier, and I could see why different people would rank one above the other.


Scoring, yes.



Mourning was a better scorer, but it really wasn't by that much.

During his first 8 years Mourning averaged about 21.5 ppg. with a high of 23.2 ppg.

During his prime, Howard averaged about 20 ppg. with a high of 22.9.

Scoring really wasn't the reason either of them were a star. The calling card for both of them was defense. In fact, only one time in his career did Mourning finish in the top 10 in the league in scoring.


Zo is an all-time great. He was one of the best centers when the best centers played. Shaq, Ewing, The Dream, Robinson, even Rik Smits. Every night was a gauntlet for him and he was only 6'10". And don't get me started on the Power Forwards he had to face too. Oakley, Barkley, LJ, Mason, Horry, Rodman, Grant, Kemp, Etc. Howard would have been swallowed up by all those dudes. I assume both Zo and Howard were juiced to the gills at one point, so that would be a wash. But there's absolutely no way Howard would have gotten the best of him. Zo would take his lunch money, point blank.

How would Howard be looked at by the end of his career? A loser. A clown. Someone the stars didn't respect. Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Durant, & Garnett all have zero love for the guy...
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:38 am    Post subject:

carlosLisboa wrote:
activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:
activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:


This is a goof comparison. Zo's stats are better than DW's even after all those years injured / reduced.
.



Not sure what method you're using to determine Zo's stats were better. If you want to use their primes (which would probably be Mourning's first 8 years, and Howard's years 3-10), I don't see much statistical difference. Mourning has an edge in scoring and blocks, Howard in rebounding and shooting percentage.

Personally, Iíd take Mourning because Howard is so annoying. But I canít say Mourningís objective accomplishment really pass Howard. Iíd put them on the same tier, and I could see why different people would rank one above the other.


Scoring, yes.



Mourning was a better scorer, but it really wasn't by that much.

During his first 8 years Mourning averaged about 21.5 ppg. with a high of 23.2 ppg.

During his prime, Howard averaged about 20 ppg. with a high of 22.9.

Scoring really wasn't the reason either of them were a star. The calling card for both of them was defense. In fact, only one time in his career did Mourning finish in the top 10 in the league in scoring.


Morning had skills, even a decent J as the Celtics well remember.
Dwight can't even shoot from 5ft.


I'm not arguing with you. Mourning was more skilled, Howard was more athletic. I'm just saying their overall accomplishments weren't significantly different.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:51 am    Post subject:

AFireInside619 wrote:


Zo is an all-time great. He was one of the best centers when the best centers played. Shaq, Ewing, The Dream, Robinson, even Rik Smits. Every night was a gauntlet for him and he was only 6'10". And don't get me started on the Power Forwards he had to face too. Oakley, Barkley, LJ, Mason, Horry, Rodman, Grant, Kemp, Etc. Howard would have been swallowed up by all those dudes. I assume both Zo and Howard were juiced to the gills at one point, so that would be a wash. But there's absolutely no way Howard would have gotten the best of him. Zo would take his lunch money, point blank.

How would Howard be looked at by the end of his career? A loser. A clown. Someone the stars didn't respect. Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Durant, & Garnett all have zero love for the guy...



In most rankings I see, they tend to be pretty close. For example, in ESPN's list of 100 best players Mourning was 65 and Howard was 67. I find on most lists of all-time centers they come in in the low 20s, right near each other.

In most lists, Mourning and Howard tend to be in the great mishmash of centers like Bill Lanier, Dikembe Mutumbo, Dave Cowens, Wes Unseld, Bob McAdoo and Robert Parish, where very few people much care what order they're ranked in, unless they have some kind of intense personal feelings about a player.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: How will history remember Dwight Howard?

It won't.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:07 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Once you get past Magic, there are a bunch of PGs that you can argue about. Oscar is usually #2, but that may start to change. His ranking was based primarily on the mystique of his triple-double season. Now Westbrook has posted a triple-double season under more difficult conditions in terms of game pace and competition. Anyway, I would rank Paul over Isiah and Payton, but I acknowledge that I rank Paul higher (and Isiah lower) than most people.

AV's point is that there have been a lot more great centers than great PGs. Set aside Magic for the moment. Is there any other PG would you would rank above Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, or Hakeem? And then you have Robinson, M. Malone, and Ewing. You can make an argument that every one of those guys was greater than any PG other than Magic. And then you come to the oddities, Mikan and Walton.

So no, Dwight Howard is not a top 10 center. But a PG with equivalent credentials would have an argument for top 10 status.


I think Oscar is poised for a steep decline in his reputation.

My guess is that very few people here, and very few modern NBA fans could tell you much about Oscar, his game, or his accomplishments other than the triple double.

I think Westbrook accomplishing that will knock Oscar off a lot of all time top 10 list, because he doesn't seem special anymore.

Oscar reminds me a little bit of Joe DiMaggio and baseball DiMaggio at the time of his retirement was considered the consummate baseball player, but now he's hardly remembered
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:35 am    Post subject:

999 wrote:
Shawn kemp 2.0


Then once again, the sequel was worse than the original.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:52 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:
activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:
activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:


This is a goof comparison. Zo's stats are better than DW's even after all those years injured / reduced.
.



Not sure what method you're using to determine Zo's stats were better. If you want to use their primes (which would probably be Mourning's first 8 years, and Howard's years 3-10), I don't see much statistical difference. Mourning has an edge in scoring and blocks, Howard in rebounding and shooting percentage.

Personally, Iíd take Mourning because Howard is so annoying. But I canít say Mourningís objective accomplishment really pass Howard. Iíd put them on the same tier, and I could see why different people would rank one above the other.


Scoring, yes.



Mourning was a better scorer, but it really wasn't by that much.

During his first 8 years Mourning averaged about 21.5 ppg. with a high of 23.2 ppg.

During his prime, Howard averaged about 20 ppg. with a high of 22.9.

Scoring really wasn't the reason either of them were a star. The calling card for both of them was defense. In fact, only one time in his career did Mourning finish in the top 10 in the league in scoring.


Morning had skills, even a decent J as the Celtics well remember.
Dwight can't even shoot from 5ft.


I'm not arguing with you. Mourning was more skilled, Howard was more athletic. I'm just saying their overall accomplishments weren't significantly different.


I agree. If not for the championship Zo won (as a reserve) we wouldn't even be talking about him. An Zo was not one of the best centres ever. Just a very good one, and a marquee player for the Heat. Good international career.
Bad attitude in Charlotte and Toronto, hurt his image, but a championhsip erases a lot. He at least understood how important was to win something even playing a lesser role, and bringing value as a role player.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:16 pm    Post subject:

((COMMENT REMOVED - JMK))
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:57 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Oscar reminds me a little bit of Joe DiMaggio and baseball DiMaggio at the time of his retirement was considered the consummate baseball player, but now he's hardly remembered


If anyone ever has a 56 game hitting streak, your analogy will be perfect. Joe was just before the TV era, and his career numbers were curtailed by the war. Other than a passing reference in Mrs. Robinson, the 56 game streak, and Marilyn Monroe, only baseball history geeks like me could really tell you much about him.
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