Laker Report: They Have to Be Trying to Improve, Right?
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:12 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Mileage aside, he is still fresher than most because of his work ethic.


In one sense it prolongs his career, but it's not so much the work ethic that takes a toll as compared to the combination of the 100 game seasons + entire summer working together.

Kareem didn't have to work that hard for his near 20 year career. I'm not saying Bryant will burn out, but I do think he needs to exert some wisdom in terms of work ethic.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:12 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Quote:
Players like Kobe do not grow on trees so when you have him you need to maximize him.

Yet, the Pistons and Spurs don't have Kobe Bryant and they have won rings and will continue to.

How's that possible?

Because they have built a team from the scratch and properly making sound basketball decisions.

Their teams aren't a one man show or even about one player. The best player on that team has about one tenth the ego Kobe has.

I don't care what Kobe's personal goals are. They are his personal goals. The Lakers should do what's best for the Lakers.

If they can build a team around Kone now - great. I would love that. But they can sit their in fear of losing Kobe to father time just because he's aging. And then make stupid move that kills their finances for the next 5-6 years.

Again - I would LOVE a deadline trade. I would love for this team to have more depth and balance.

But only if it's worth it longterm.

Ask franchises like the Kings and Mavs what happens when you only think about today.


You know I'm with you. My point is that should be some middle ground between taking avantage of our ubersuperstar, and disregarding the need to build around him.

It does not have to be either Kobe, or the team does it? There must be a way to bridge the two and secure the future as well.

I love watching it play out!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:16 pm    Post subject:

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You know I'm with you. My point is that should be some middle ground between taking avantage of our ubersuperstar, and disregarding the need to build around him.

It does not have to be either Kobe, or the team does it? There must be a way to bridge the two and secure the future as well.

I love watching it play out

I agree.

But it's hard to put together a roster that's ready to contend in a year and half.

Ussually after dynasties break up, it takes 3-5 years. Hell the Bull still aren't a good team, let alone a contender.

The Lakers will be back. And they will give Kobe an oppurtunity to win some rings. But just because they may not do that last year, this or next - does that mean it's over?

Kobe can win a ring or rings at 29-33. I think in a year and half - the Lakers will have added a lot more talent than most people think.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:17 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
Mileage aside, he is still fresher than most because of his work ethic.


In one sense it prolongs his career, but it's not so much the work ethic that takes a toll as compared to the combination of the 100 game seasons + entire summer working together.

Kareem didn't have to work that hard for his near 20 year career. I'm not saying Bryant will burn out, but I do think he needs to exert some wisdom in terms of work ethic.


Agreed

We'll see how he handles it in a few more years. Does his knees and ankles break down, or does he stay productive well into his 30's? Only time will tell, but I would certainly not bet against him.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:18 pm    Post subject:

Dennis_D wrote:
LakerJam wrote:
Seriously, if after 1-1/2 half years, you have to complain that we're not back on top and we're wasting Kobe's prime, then I don't know what to tell you. It takes longer than that to rebuild. Accept it or don't, but don't push it off onto Kobe Bryant. He knew dam well what he was getting into when he chose to stay a Laker for life. He understood - and well everyone should because NBA history has told us so over and over and over again - that it takes T-I-M-E to build a team back up to contention.

A lot of posters also don't realize that you have to walk before you run. You don't go from rebuilding directly to competing for the NBA championship. You have to take some time just being a winning team. I feel that a lot of posters are ashamed of the fact that the Lakers are only going to make the playoffs this year when they should see that as a major step towards being able to compete for the championship.

Well said, man.

And the rumors are that the Lakers are looking to make a big upgrade. It's not like they don't look for trades or upgrades

But things take time. Especially when you are looking to put together a championship window of 5-7 years. That's not an easy thing to build.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:21 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Quote:
You know I'm with you. My point is that should be some middle ground between taking avantage of our ubersuperstar, and disregarding the need to build around him.

It does not have to be either Kobe, or the team does it? There must be a way to bridge the two and secure the future as well.

I love watching it play out

I agree.

But it's hard to put together a roster that's ready to contend in a year and half.

Ussually after dynasties break up, it takes 3-5 years. Hell the Bull still aren't a good team, let alone a contender.

The Lakers will be back. And they will give Kobe an oppurtunity to win some rings. But just because they may not do that last year, this or next - does that mean it's over?

Kobe can win a ring or rings at 29-33. I think in a year and half - the Lakers will have added a lot more talent than most people think.


There you go using common sense again!

They either win it all now or they need to fire everybody in the front office.
:roll:

I am a big LA Kings fan and I have had season tix for years. They have been mediocre for decades...Now that is tough. A year or two is nothing in the big picture.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:21 pm    Post subject:

nateball wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
Mileage aside, he is still fresher than most because of his work ethic.


In one sense it prolongs his career, but it's not so much the work ethic that takes a toll as compared to the combination of the 100 game seasons + entire summer working together.

Kareem didn't have to work that hard for his near 20 year career. I'm not saying Bryant will burn out, but I do think he needs to exert some wisdom in terms of work ethic.


Agreed

We'll see how he handles it in a few more years. Does his knees and ankles break down, or does he stay productive well into his 30's? Only time will tell, but I would certainly not bet against him.


What about Karl Malone? He had an amazing work ethic too, and he lasted until his 40's. Any other player work like Kobe and Karl?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:23 pm    Post subject:

jmac78 wrote:
nateball wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
Mileage aside, he is still fresher than most because of his work ethic.


In one sense it prolongs his career, but it's not so much the work ethic that takes a toll as compared to the combination of the 100 game seasons + entire summer working together.

Kareem didn't have to work that hard for his near 20 year career. I'm not saying Bryant will burn out, but I do think he needs to exert some wisdom in terms of work ethic.


Agreed

We'll see how he handles it in a few more years. Does his knees and ankles break down, or does he stay productive well into his 30's? Only time will tell, but I would certainly not bet against him.


What about Karl Malone? He had an amazing work ethic too, and he lasted until his 40's. Any other player work like Kobe and Karl?


Perfect example, and don't tell me Karl was not in some serious playoff battles!
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:28 pm    Post subject:

Karl also had a Kobe type work ethic

It wouldn't suprise me if Kobe played until 40. Broke KAJ's record and then retired.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:30 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Karl also had a Kobe type work ethic

It wouldn't suprise me if Kobe played until 40. Broke KAJ's record and then retired.


Don't forget that he retires with another hand full of rings!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:34 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Karl also had a Kobe type work ethic

It wouldn't suprise me if Kobe played until 40. Broke KAJ's record and then retired.


I wonder what Kobe would have to average per year to break that record.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:46 pm    Post subject:

jmac78 wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Karl also had a Kobe type work ethic

It wouldn't suprise me if Kobe played until 40. Broke KAJ's record and then retired.


I wonder what Kobe would have to average per year to break that record.


Regular season record is 38,387

Kobe has 15,746

So he is 22,641 ponts from the record

12 seasons from now he will be 40 right?

If he plays to age 40 he needs to avareage around 23 pts per game. That is if he plays every single game, which he won't. So lets assume he averages 70 games for the rest of his career---

That puts it at around 27 points per game. Give or take a point for rounding.

What do you think? Possible?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:05 pm    Post subject:

DaggerInTheHeart wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Great stuff, nateball.

Great to see a fan like you on this board. Seems most only care about Kobe and what he needs.




Kobe needs what the Lakers need which is a supporting cast the hell is wrong with you? you tell me if Kobe is getting any younger and i will gladly answer it for you.


When KOBE is the one whose saying fans need to be patient, then fans need to stop using him as an excuse for an all-out Laker organization bashfest.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:16 pm    Post subject:

DaggerInTheHeart wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:

It's what the Lakers need. Period. It should end there.


This is Kobe's team it's not the Lakers team because we only have 1 leader


This is most ridiculous comment in this thread. Wow.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:19 pm    Post subject:

LakerJam wrote:
DaggerInTheHeart wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Great stuff, nateball.

Great to see a fan like you on this board. Seems most only care about Kobe and what he needs.




Kobe needs what the Lakers need which is a supporting cast the hell is wrong with you? you tell me if Kobe is getting any younger and i will gladly answer it for you.


When KOBE is the one whose saying fans need to be patient, then fans need to stop using him as an excuse for an all-out Laker organization bashfest.

What is kobe going to say? Did he not purposely stay out of PJ gate, due to not wanting to be looked at , at making the decisions? Kobe is just going to play ball. Hes smart enough to know he needs 3new starters (Mihm being the only progressing one). He cant say anything, because HE/WE know EVERYTHING he says gets taken out of context. He gives a 100% no matter what. His EGO is telling us to patient, not with just the squad but with the GM. I have to ask this. When has Kup ever given us reason to hope?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:37 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Fans want to point at age, instead of length of time played during the regular season and playoffs combined.

Regardless of age, Kobe's work ethic, along with 3 consecutive years to the Finals, 3 championships, and other playoff experience takes a toll on the body.

It takes a unique approach seasonally just to compensate for that, but I've had worries that Kobe Bryant is, in a sense, "overworked."


These are reasonable concerns and best basis for any health concerns surrounding Kobe.

The only modifier I would add that should ideally ease Kobe’s legs a little is that he hasn't just been a high fly act who didn’t bother with really developing a jumper until his later years ala MJ. He’s actually had such a polished floor game for so long now, that he does a lot of what he does without the same level of attacking the rim and dunking that we saw from MJ until his later years, and see now from Wade even. This eases at least somewhat the strain on his knees (my biggest concerns) because he isn’t just dunking, dunking, dunking all the time.

Playing a lot more of a floor game can expand a player’s career by years. I believe that keeping his muscles trained and having a floor game are a big reason Karl Malone and Gary Payton - 2 guys always in prime shape - have had such loooonng careers. Now we know MJ played at an elite level to age 38 (and he wasn’t chopped liver at 40, either), but did come into the league after college vs. high school Kobe. We know Kobe didn’t get many minutes his first 2 years, but after that, he’s played a lot. If Kobe plays at an MJ level until he’s 36 - 2 yrs. younger than MJ - then we still have a sizeable 7-8 year window. After that, he’ll probably still be playing at a high level, but not able to handle too many minutes.

Of course, all this bars injuries, but point is I just don’t believe Kobe is going to turn into a brittle pumpkin the moment he turns 30.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:41 pm    Post subject:

bounty wrote:
LakerJam wrote:
DaggerInTheHeart wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Great stuff, nateball.

Great to see a fan like you on this board. Seems most only care about Kobe and what he needs.




Kobe needs what the Lakers need which is a supporting cast the hell is wrong with you? you tell me if Kobe is getting any younger and i will gladly answer it for you.


When KOBE is the one whose saying fans need to be patient, then fans need to stop using him as an excuse for an all-out Laker organization bashfest.

What is kobe going to say? Did he not purposely stay out of PJ gate, due to not wanting to be looked at , at making the decisions? Kobe is just going to play ball. Hes smart enough to know he needs 3new starters (Mihm being the only progressing one). He cant say anything, because HE/WE know EVERYTHING he says gets taken out of context. He gives a 100% no matter what. His EGO is telling us to patient, not with just the squad but with the GM. I have to ask this. When has Kup ever given us reason to hope?


Yeah, you're probably right. Kobe is likely panicking and thinking the rebuild should have only taken 3 weeks. After all, Kobe has no clue about the history of the game, so he wouldn't know that it takes a few years to build a team back up, and that's if you're lucky.

As for Kupchak, I love the Bynum pick. I also thought he ripped off Boston in stealing Mihm (would have liked Banks, too, but Mihm was definitely worth it). Hated the Shaq trade, but I also can admit that Shaq had an awful lot to do with that. Other than that, I honestly think it's too soon to know. I know you disagree with that and that you're frustrated (I HATE losing, too), but I do believe you have to give the man more than a year and half to really know. Yes, I know he was the GM before that, but not really. Tinkering is one thing, but this is his first true GMing challenge.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:46 pm    Post subject:

LakerJam wrote:
bounty wrote:
LakerJam wrote:
DaggerInTheHeart wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Great stuff, nateball.

Great to see a fan like you on this board. Seems most only care about Kobe and what he needs.




Kobe needs what the Lakers need which is a supporting cast the hell is wrong with you? you tell me if Kobe is getting any younger and i will gladly answer it for you.


When KOBE is the one whose saying fans need to be patient, then fans need to stop using him as an excuse for an all-out Laker organization bashfest.

What is kobe going to say? Did he not purposely stay out of PJ gate, due to not wanting to be looked at , at making the decisions? Kobe is just going to play ball. Hes smart enough to know he needs 3new starters (Mihm being the only progressing one). He cant say anything, because HE/WE know EVERYTHING he says gets taken out of context. He gives a 100% no matter what. His EGO is telling us to patient, not with just the squad but with the GM. I have to ask this. When has Kup ever given us reason to hope?


Yeah, you're probably right. Kobe is likely panicking and thinking the rebuild should have only taken 3 weeks. After all, Kobe has no clue about the history of the game, so he wouldn't know that it takes a few years to build a team back up, and that's if you're lucky.

Geez.


Typical, isn't it Jam?

*sigh*
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:56 pm    Post subject:

Yeah, Magic, yeah. It's sad.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:13 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
If Kobe plays at an MJ level until he’s 36 - 2 yrs. younger than MJ - then we still have a sizeable 7-8 year window. After that, he’ll probably still be playing at a high level, but not able to handle too many minutes.


I could only hope Kobe plays at such a high level for so long. We've yet to really see a HS player last that long in the NBA outside of Moses Malone.

It's not just the work ethic. Kobe's ankles have been injury prone for years, along with knee tendonitis. These are nagging injuries he's played with even through the playoffs. It takes more than just a couple of weeks to heal as well.

I agree Bryant's floor game is polished and he's more reliant on that than an aerial attack. In fact, it's surprising that the 81 point burst had little air in it. He was just gunning like Pistol Pete. The greatest players of all time generally have played 40 or more minutes, but I do think it would be wise if that number dropped to 37. It took a toll on Shaq (despite his work ethic, it beat him up every season) and there was never really an adequate backup C.

Bryant understands this as well, and it shows when he sits out 4th quarters or extended periods of time when the Lakers have established a strong lead. Still his minutes hover around 40 anyway.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:17 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Kobe is likely panicking and thinking the rebuild should have only taken 3 weeks.


Though I know this was done in jest, allow me to ask 2 questions:

How long did it take Kiki Vandeweghe to turn a bottom feeder Denver team in to a playoff team?

Same for Jerry West?

How about for Joe Dumars to get a borderline playoff team into a championship team?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:25 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
Kobe is likely panicking and thinking the rebuild should have only taken 3 weeks.


Though I know this was done in jest, allow me to ask 2 questions:

How long did it take Kiki Vandeweghe to turn a bottom feeder Denver team in to a playoff team?

Same for Jerry West?

How about for Joe Dumars to get a borderline playoff team into a championship team?


That's 3 questions
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:14 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
Kobe is likely panicking and thinking the rebuild should have only taken 3 weeks.


Though I know this was done in jest, allow me to ask 2 questions:

How long did it take Kiki Vandeweghe to turn a bottom feeder Denver team in to a playoff team?

Same for Jerry West?

How about for Joe Dumars to get a borderline playoff team into a championship team?


Mike,

While I agree with you on giving the team some time, I think the primary difference between the situations you just mentioned is that the Lakers have their franchise player on the roster. Now it's about putting pieces around him. Those situations didn't have a premier option like Kobe.

That's why people expect faster results. They shouldn't, but that's a reason why.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:23 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
Kobe is likely panicking and thinking the rebuild should have only taken 3 weeks.


Though I know this was done in jest, allow me to ask 2 questions:

How long did it take Kiki Vandeweghe to turn a bottom feeder Denver team in to a playoff team?

Same for Jerry West?

How about for Joe Dumars to get a borderline playoff team into a championship team?


Yea, I was kidding a little but.

As for your questions, it's true that Kiki and Jerry took bad teams and have now turned them into perennial playoff teams. But that's the point. They've built PLAYOFF teams, not champions. That's not our goal. We're already in the playoffs and look at fan reaction. We're not trying to get to the 2nd round. We're not trying to be Dallas. We're trying to ensure that we acquire the right pieces for a real run and an extended run. We've got the dominant player in Kobe. We've got the necessary strong rebounder in Odom. We need another consistent scorer. We need a better perimeter defender and a little depth on the bench.

Let me take the Denver example, if I may. Denver had a great year when they drafted Carmelo - who incidently was a huge reason for their success. What did Kiki then do? He immediately went out and acquired pieces, paid what he had to pay, and has now ensured that Denver will make the playoffs forever, but not likely win a title. He didn't get the RIGHT pieces, he just saw talent and went for it. Just look at K-Mart. He's too little for the west period. It's OBVIOUS everytime he plays a team with a real PF. He can't make a dent. Heck, he's even helpless against Lamar Odom. So Kiki spent max $ on a too small to defend western PFs and has no answer for when his team meets up with those PFs in the playoffs. He then gives Camby too much money, despite knowing Camby typically signs a contract and then gets hurt constantly. Can't win with that type of heartless player as a key piece. So Denver is in the playoffs and my reaction is, so what?

I know we've missed some opportunities, too, and I'm not trying to make excuses for that. But I don't think we've missed as many opportunties as people here claim. Why? Because just looking back to last year and the year before, how many players were "must-haves" and "Mitch sucks for not acquiring", only to see those players sign nice deals elsewhere and then be absolutely worse than what we're getting out of the guys we have here. I also know that all it takes is getting that one right player and we're seriously in the discussion. I have a strong belief that that will happen.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:25 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
How long did it take Kiki Vandeweghe to turn a bottom feeder Denver team in to a playoff team?

2 years and he got a top 3 pick.

And yet since they got into the PO's 2 years ago their winning percentage has been the exact same despite coaching changes and spending huge on players like Kenyon Martin, Marcus Camby, Andre Miller and Earl Watson - two of who he is now actively shopping because he's wary of the financial burden.

Quote:
Same for Jerry West?

West had a lottery team and two season's where the Lakers squeezed into the PO's

Quote:
How about for Joe Dumars to get a borderline playoff team into a championship team?

Well Dumars also had a lottery season - his first one

The next season (his 2nd) Detroit made the PO's and did so twice in a row before in his 4th season he made Detroit a winner - with the Larry Brown and Rasheed Wallace aquisitions

So while it's excellent - it took him 4 years too and one lottery season.

Let's not forget a few of his gems of draft picks

Darko Milicic (2nd overall over Anthony, Wade, Bosh)
Rodney White (9th overall lottery pick)
Mateen Cleaves (14th overall)

Yeah the great Dumars has had some pretty big oooops
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