| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
JrR31
Starting Rotation
Joined: 31 Oct 2014
Posts: 438
|
 Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It is hitting the rim and some are just way off.
Maybe the release and rhythm . |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
tox
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17880
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sure there is value in a midrange shot. It helps open up better looks, e.g. being money on the midrange pullup lets you be a more devastating PnR player that gets more PnR roll man plays. That's a good thing. If you can shoot 45% from midrange (only 0.9 PPP) while being double teamed, that opens up a lot of things for your teammates.
That's still far away from saying it's the best shot in the game after layups and dunks. It's not. You point to the Warriors vs. Cavs, overlooking the fact that the Cavs were one of the most prolific 3 point shooting teams too.
When your examples for why midrange is a good shot includes Jordan and Kobe, you're setting the bar way too high for 99% of NBA players. It is possible to be good enough from midrange that it's a fairly efficient shot. Kobe, Dirk, CP3 are all examples in the past decade of guys who attained that. They are also some of the best midrange shooters ever. Good luck hitting that bar. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AC Green's V-Card
Star Player
Joined: 09 Aug 2012
Posts: 3063
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Arguing for the mid-range shot with modern NBA rules is like arguing for a run heavy offense in the modern NFL. I'm not saying I wouldn't want prime Adrian Peterson on my team, but his value today isn't as important as it used to be. With zone defense legal and hand checking made illegal, space and pace is the only way to play in today's game if you want to win.
To pretend that the three-point line doesn't bring strategic advantages beyond points scored is a complete misunderstanding as well. Three-point shots open up driving lanes and force defenders to travel farther distances to contest shots. Brook Lopez and Marc Gasol are shooting three-pointers to help bring rim-protecting bigs out toward them. This is hugely beneficial for the guards/wings to get to the rim.
The two best shots in basketball overall continue to be at the rim and behind the three-point line. And if you still don't understand why, this article may help you: https://fansided.com/2015/08/14/freelance-friday-201516-nba-schedule-better-balances-rest/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AC Green's V-Card
Star Player
Joined: 09 Aug 2012
Posts: 3063
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| tox wrote: |
Sure there is value in a midrange shot. It helps open up better looks, e.g. being money on the midrange pullup lets you be a more devastating PnR player that gets more PnR roll man plays. That's a good thing. If you can shoot 45% from midrange (only 0.9 PPP) while being double teamed, that opens up a lot of things for your teammates.
That's still far away from saying it's the best shot in the game after layups and dunks. It's not. You point to the Warriors vs. Cavs, overlooking the fact that the Cavs were one of the most prolific 3 point shooting teams too.
When your examples for why midrange is a good shot includes Jordan and Kobe, you're setting the bar way too high for 99% of NBA players. It is possible to be good enough from midrange that it's a fairly efficient shot. Kobe, Dirk, CP3 are all examples in the past decade of guys who attained that. They are also some of the best midrange shooters ever. Good luck hitting that bar. |
Not to mention, in Games 5, 6, and 7 of the 2016 Finals, Kyrie and Lebron shot a combined 17 for 38 from 3PT range (44.7%). Think that opened up some driving lanes when the Warriors were forced to close out hard on them?
In each of the last three years the Cavs or Warriors won the championship, the winning team finished 1st or 2nd in 3PT shots made in the regular season. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Baron Von Humongous
Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 32979
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| AC Green's V-Card wrote: | Arguing for the mid-range shot with modern NBA rules is like arguing for a run heavy offense in the modern NFL. I'm not saying I wouldn't want prime Adrian Peterson on my team, but his value today isn't as important as it used to be. With zone defense legal and hand checking made illegal, space and pace is the only way to play in today's game if you want to win.
To pretend that the three-point line doesn't bring strategic advantages beyond points scored is a complete misunderstanding as well. Three-point shots open up driving lanes and force defenders to travel farther distances to contest shots. Brook Lopez and Marc Gasol are shooting three-pointers to help bring rim-protecting bigs out toward them. This is hugely beneficial for the guards/wings to get to the rim.
The two best shots in basketball overall continue to be at the rim and behind the three-point line. And if you still don't understand why, this article may help you: https://fansided.com/2015/08/14/freelance-friday-201516-nba-schedule-better-balances-rest/ |
The Spurs seem to be challenging that idea with a league low 17.5 3FGAs per game. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RG73
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2001
Posts: 11508
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| fusuyballer wrote: |
Actually, statistics lie and I dont even feel like getting into the nitty gritty of this argument. There are other values that the mid-range brings to the game that cannot be measured in stats alone. Like the ability to draw double teams from the mid-range or high post...etc. I dont have the time or will to go over all of them, especially when people try to use stats to sum up entire arguments about basketball. What I will say is, the league average has nothing to do with this argument because I am talking about specific players, not the general rule. And, these specific players happen to be players who made their careers out of hitting mid-range shots and getting to the rim, and they are some of the best to ever do it because of this fact. |
Where are you hiding that DeLorean? It's like you just showed up from the 80s....
So the statistics lie thing is usually used by those that neither understand statistics, nor have a counter argument. In this case you are conflating basic math, observational data and statistical models. Someone shooting 40% from 3 is more efficient than someone shooting 50% from 2 because 12 points is greater than 10. That is basic math. The observational data about the relative efficiency of mid-range shots vs 3s is extensive, easily available, and is factual. Every shot by every player has been recorded for years now, thus we are able to see patterns like corner 3s being a better shot (in terms of points per possession) than a mid-range shot. You can't argue that. I mean you can, but you would also probably argue the Earth is flat. It's just arguing against obvious facts. There are no statistical models involved here, hence, statistics can't be made to lie. You can't even accuse anyone of cherrypicking observational data. As to your notions that midrange shots "open up" the defense or whatever, again, there is observational data on that. Pretty much everything done on an NBA court can be measured now. People have even collected data on the "gravity" of high usage players like Kobe--that is, how much defensive attention do low efficiency, high usage, high scoring players draw. Teams are probably privy to a lot more data on things like this than is publicly available, but our resident analytics gurus could speak more to this. Teams probably produce internal statistical models to make predictions on how different types of offenses might score, and they probably use observational data to see how well models fit. I suppose that sort of stuff could be manipulated by statisticians, but that's internal stuff that none of us ever see anyway (at least if we don't go to analytics conferences).
| Quote: | | My overall point is, the best teams do not typically win from the 3 point line, they win because they get in the paint and score high percentage buckets at a greater rate than the other team. Only truly great 3 point shooting teams can typically negate this fact, but there's only a few great ones. |
I'm not sure what you are basing this assertion on. Do you have data to support this? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
From an analytial perspective, the best shots in terms of EV are 3s and layups/dunks.
However, I do not think that means you completely abandon the mid-range.
People get way too extreme in their positions. It is ultimately about prioritization.
Not either or. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AC Green's V-Card
Star Player
Joined: 09 Aug 2012
Posts: 3063
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | AC Green's V-Card wrote: | Arguing for the mid-range shot with modern NBA rules is like arguing for a run heavy offense in the modern NFL. I'm not saying I wouldn't want prime Adrian Peterson on my team, but his value today isn't as important as it used to be. With zone defense legal and hand checking made illegal, space and pace is the only way to play in today's game if you want to win.
To pretend that the three-point line doesn't bring strategic advantages beyond points scored is a complete misunderstanding as well. Three-point shots open up driving lanes and force defenders to travel farther distances to contest shots. Brook Lopez and Marc Gasol are shooting three-pointers to help bring rim-protecting bigs out toward them. This is hugely beneficial for the guards/wings to get to the rim.
The two best shots in basketball overall continue to be at the rim and behind the three-point line. And if you still don't understand why, this article may help you: https://fansided.com/2015/08/14/freelance-friday-201516-nba-schedule-better-balances-rest/ |
The Spurs seem to be challenging that idea with a league low 17.5 3FGAs per game. |
So the Spurs don't play with pace and space? That's a staple of their offense, and Kawhi Leonard being out might be putting a dent in those attempt numbers. Even still, it's been four games. Let's check the numbers in April. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AC Green's V-Card
Star Player
Joined: 09 Aug 2012
Posts: 3063
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ringfinger wrote: | From an analytial perspective, the best shots in terms of EV are 3s and layups/dunks.
However, I do not think that means you completely abandon the mid-range.
People get way too extreme in their positions. It is ultimately about prioritization.
Not either or. |
No one is calling for an abandonment of the mid-range. I'm not even sure the Rockets would do that, or that it's entirely possible. The discussion is centered on which is a better shot: mid-range or three-pointer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| AC Green's V-Card wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | From an analytial perspective, the best shots in terms of EV are 3s and layups/dunks.
However, I do not think that means you completely abandon the mid-range.
People get way too extreme in their positions. It is ultimately about prioritization.
Not either or. |
No one is calling for an abandonment of the mid-range. I'm not even sure the Rockets would do that, or that it's entirely possible. The discussion is centered on which is a better shot: mid-range or three-pointer. |
Mathematically, 3pter. But, it depends on the player.
For Demar Derozan, the mid range is better. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Lebrons
Star Player
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 4778
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I think the issue is he isn't making shots. Perhaps we should wait more than 4 regular season games before doing a case study. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Baron Von Humongous
Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 32979
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| AC Green's V-Card wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | AC Green's V-Card wrote: | Arguing for the mid-range shot with modern NBA rules is like arguing for a run heavy offense in the modern NFL. I'm not saying I wouldn't want prime Adrian Peterson on my team, but his value today isn't as important as it used to be. With zone defense legal and hand checking made illegal, space and pace is the only way to play in today's game if you want to win.
To pretend that the three-point line doesn't bring strategic advantages beyond points scored is a complete misunderstanding as well. Three-point shots open up driving lanes and force defenders to travel farther distances to contest shots. Brook Lopez and Marc Gasol are shooting three-pointers to help bring rim-protecting bigs out toward them. This is hugely beneficial for the guards/wings to get to the rim.
The two best shots in basketball overall continue to be at the rim and behind the three-point line. And if you still don't understand why, this article may help you: https://fansided.com/2015/08/14/freelance-friday-201516-nba-schedule-better-balances-rest/ |
The Spurs seem to be challenging that idea with a league low 17.5 3FGAs per game. |
So the Spurs don't play with pace and space? That's a staple of their offense, and Kawhi Leonard being out might be putting a dent in those attempt numbers. Even still, it's been four games. Let's check the numbers in April. |
The Aldridge Spurs have gradually been slowing down and taking more midrange shots as the rest of the league takes more threes and ups their possessions per game. It's been an interesting zag from Popovich to match the talents on his roster. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AC Green's V-Card
Star Player
Joined: 09 Aug 2012
Posts: 3063
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | AC Green's V-Card wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | AC Green's V-Card wrote: | Arguing for the mid-range shot with modern NBA rules is like arguing for a run heavy offense in the modern NFL. I'm not saying I wouldn't want prime Adrian Peterson on my team, but his value today isn't as important as it used to be. With zone defense legal and hand checking made illegal, space and pace is the only way to play in today's game if you want to win.
To pretend that the three-point line doesn't bring strategic advantages beyond points scored is a complete misunderstanding as well. Three-point shots open up driving lanes and force defenders to travel farther distances to contest shots. Brook Lopez and Marc Gasol are shooting three-pointers to help bring rim-protecting bigs out toward them. This is hugely beneficial for the guards/wings to get to the rim.
The two best shots in basketball overall continue to be at the rim and behind the three-point line. And if you still don't understand why, this article may help you: https://fansided.com/2015/08/14/freelance-friday-201516-nba-schedule-better-balances-rest/ |
The Spurs seem to be challenging that idea with a league low 17.5 3FGAs per game. |
So the Spurs don't play with pace and space? That's a staple of their offense, and Kawhi Leonard being out might be putting a dent in those attempt numbers. Even still, it's been four games. Let's check the numbers in April. |
The Aldridge Spurs have gradually been slowing down and taking more midrange shots as the rest of the league takes more threes and ups their possessions per game. It's been an interesting zag from Popovich to match the talents on his roster. |
Have they though?
2016 - 1927 3PAs
2015 - 1518 3PAs (LMA's first year)
2014 - 1847 3PAs
2013 - 1757 3PAs
2012 - 1764 3PAs
They dipped his first year then they shot more last year than any on record for their franchise. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Baron Von Humongous
Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 32979
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| AC Green's V-Card wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | AC Green's V-Card wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | AC Green's V-Card wrote: | Arguing for the mid-range shot with modern NBA rules is like arguing for a run heavy offense in the modern NFL. I'm not saying I wouldn't want prime Adrian Peterson on my team, but his value today isn't as important as it used to be. With zone defense legal and hand checking made illegal, space and pace is the only way to play in today's game if you want to win.
To pretend that the three-point line doesn't bring strategic advantages beyond points scored is a complete misunderstanding as well. Three-point shots open up driving lanes and force defenders to travel farther distances to contest shots. Brook Lopez and Marc Gasol are shooting three-pointers to help bring rim-protecting bigs out toward them. This is hugely beneficial for the guards/wings to get to the rim.
The two best shots in basketball overall continue to be at the rim and behind the three-point line. And if you still don't understand why, this article may help you: https://fansided.com/2015/08/14/freelance-friday-201516-nba-schedule-better-balances-rest/ |
The Spurs seem to be challenging that idea with a league low 17.5 3FGAs per game. |
So the Spurs don't play with pace and space? That's a staple of their offense, and Kawhi Leonard being out might be putting a dent in those attempt numbers. Even still, it's been four games. Let's check the numbers in April. |
The Aldridge Spurs have gradually been slowing down and taking more midrange shots as the rest of the league takes more threes and ups their possessions per game. It's been an interesting zag from Popovich to match the talents on his roster. |
Have they though?
2016 - 1927 3PAs
2015 - 1518 3PAs (LMA's first year)
2014 - 1847 3PAs
2013 - 1757 3PAs
2012 - 1764 3PAs
They dipped his first year then they shot more last year than any on record for their franchise. |
Good to know. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Goldenwest
Star Player
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2802
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| He seems like he's short arming it. Follow through is so important when shooting, doesn't seem like he can follow through because of the way he shoots. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nash Vegas
Star Player
Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 7239
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
How many more games before "don't worry he'll find his shot"?
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Halflife
Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 16752
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| JrR31 wrote: | It is hitting the rim and some are just way off.
Maybe the release and rhythm . |
Exact same things said about bi last year |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
2019
Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 10812
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Nash Vegas wrote: | | How many more games before "don't worry he'll find his shot"? |
how about a couple seasons before he gets written off? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 2019 wrote: | | Nash Vegas wrote: | | How many more games before "don't worry he'll find his shot"? |
how about a couple seasons before he gets written off? |
Lakers fans these days seem to be incapable of doing that.
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nash Vegas
Star Player
Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 7239
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 2019 wrote: | | Nash Vegas wrote: | | How many more games before "don't worry he'll find his shot"? |
how about a couple seasons before he gets written off? |
So you're sayin a "couple more seasons" before he finds his "SHOT"? Dayum
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nash Vegas
Star Player
Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 7239
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| yinoma2001 wrote: | | 2019 wrote: | | Nash Vegas wrote: | | How many more games before "don't worry he'll find his shot"? |
how about a couple seasons before he gets written off? |
Lakers fans these days seem to be incapable of doing that. |
And Lakers fans seem so overtly sensitive/defensive simply to any question being asked about our players.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PHILosophize
Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2012
Posts: 10758
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
well the problem is he won't really be able to change it in any meaningful fashion until the off-season
_________________
one dog goes that way the other dog goes the other way |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakerLand247
Star Player
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 4809
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fix this broken form asap |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
He can't even make layups. Sigh.
Still think he should be coming off the bench. Lights are too bright for him right now. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Halflife
Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 16752
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ringfinger wrote: | He can't even make layups. Sigh.
Still think he should be coming off the bench. Lights are too bright for him right now. |
Lol. Team plays best when he’s on court |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
