Lonzo Ball as shooting guard?
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Fastbreak32
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:18 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
A shooting guard who canít shoot. Not a good idea.




It would be nice to get him some off the ball cuts, though. One of the reasons his percentage is so hideous is that he gets nothing cheap.


And he used to get those "cheap" baskets at UCLA.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:18 pm    Post subject:

Dr. Funkbot wrote:
So now that DLO is gone people have to try and force another point guard into being a shooting guard. So they cycle continues....


He has SG size and handles.

It is a waste to just allow him to run one role. How is he going to be versatile in the league?

Guys like Dennis Smith and Irving are PG because they are short for SG.

Lonzo can match up with SG well. He might even thrive as a PG/SG role.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:20 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
I think the Lakers have seen it too. In spots, when both Clarkson and Ball are in the game at the same time, you've seen Clarkson as the primary ball handler while Ball playing off the ball. I think that's actually plays into both of their better habits, so hope to see more of it. I'm not sure the Lakers are convinced, but I have noticed them trying it.


Well that's a start!
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:29 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
splashmtn wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
He's always been a SG in the half court.
again, not true at all. just because he gets off the ball fast doesnt mean he isnt a pg. he's just not your normal pound the ball pg. he's still not looking to score like that, not even in the half court. he will score in moments. thats not a SG. thats a PG that can put the ball in the basket if need be.


I wish I had a copy of these definitions of PG vs SG.


You can find them all over one thread in particular.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:16 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
He's always been a SG in the half court.


I do not think many watched the kid play before SL...part of him always being referred to as "complex" and "non-traditional" was because he does his best work with the ball in his hands in transition....but most of his best skills shown in college in the half court were off the ball. Look at his low usage rate in college....that was not only because he moves the ball quickly....it was also related to the fact he did not have the ball in the half court a lot depending on the lineup Alford had on the floor.

For those that say we do not have a guy to play on the ball to allow Ball to play off ball.....Holiday was not really a selfless pass first type of PG, and it worked fine @ UCLA. Actually, Holiday plays a lot more like JC than Ball.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:04 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
He's always been a SG in the half court.


I do not think many watched the kid play before SL...part of him always being referred to as "complex" and "non-traditional" was because he does his best work with the ball in his hands in transition....but most of his best skills shown in college in the half court were off the ball. Look at his low usage rate in college....that was not only because he moves the ball quickly....it was also related to the fact he did not have the ball in the half court a lot depending on the lineup Alford had on the floor.

For those that say we do not have a guy to play on the ball to allow Ball to play off ball.....Holiday was not really a selfless pass first type of PG, and it worked fine @ UCLA. Actually, Holiday plays a lot more like JC than Ball.
his usage rate is low because he gives up the ball quicker than any pass first pg i have ever seen since the 80's. thats at the nba level, and college levels. I have never seen a guy that is a pass first pg catch the ball and look for the open man so he can give it to another player with the best angle to hit said open man. he's playing chess, not checkers. its truly no nonsense basketball. he moves the ball along like someone playing a video game where you control all 5 players. This is why you will always think his best stuff is in transition. yes you are correct his best Assists are in transition when he's the one running the break or he heaves it down court for a bucket/foul when a teammate catches it right at that rim.

It doesnt mean he cant work the half court or hasnt shown he can. it means he doesnt need to because of his idea of play where you give the ball to the guy with the best angle to make the next pass for a basket. any of our favorite guards held that ball because they didnt trust anyone else with it. they were the point guards like jordan and kobe were scoring guards. they had the ultimate trust in their own abilities to handle the ball and setup teammates. Zo doesnt care. He has less of an ego than most think. less than many stars before him. less than even the magic man. there's a reason you dribble that ball so much until you can hit the open guy. of course you could pass it to a teammate that already has a great angle that could make a simple pass for the basket. but if you keep doing that. you wont average 10 assists per. you wont have room for all the flashy passes.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:06 am    Post subject:

JrR31 wrote:
splashmtn wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
For those of you too caught up in positional definitions from 50 years ago, Lonzo is at his best when he starts off of the ball in the half court. If you still need to call him a PG within that sort of framework, knock yourself out.


You may be right, but if so, he will never be the player that he was hyped to be. That might not be a bad thing, but a lot of people will have a hard time getting their brains wrapped around it.
most people didnt know what he was when the hype was building to begin with. so who cares what they think. lol.

most people on this very board dont know what type of player he is. i've said this many times. he is like no other pass first pg you've ever seen. because he doesnt pound the ball to rack up all of his assists (nash, cp3, even magic, stockton, rubio, etc.) he gets off the ball ASAP. thats how he wants to play. this helps his teams play really fast. but nothing about that looks sexy to most fans. a guy giving it up early. cant get the assist half the time and surely wont be the guy scoring...borrrring. lol. But he's still more of a scorer than jason kidd and rubio when they were his age and time in the nba. i'm talking mentallity. he isnt afraid of his own shot. jkidd was, we know rubio was, we know stockton was(which is the reason the jazz could never get over the hump. they didnt have enough scoring from stockton along with the dimes.)

But as we've said if you want zo to score more efficiently dont think he's going to do 100% of his scoring on the ball. he aint damon lillard, nor is he steph curry or kyrie irving. that aint him. run a couple of ray allen picks so he can hit that sideline 3. bam. run a back door pick or two per game so he can catch that lob. bam. now all of a sudden he has 6 to 8 points off of easy greasy touches. those now become 40%(3pt) 80% fg(the backdoors) efficient shots. You give him a few of those like that. and maybe a breakway or 2 per. all of a sudden his fg% goes up. now he feels better about his ability to put the ball in the basket. now its no longer in his head.


Exactly my line of thinking. And also it will provide him different set of skills to add to his PG skills which is pass and create for his teammates.

All the sudden this guy is dunking it and ISo'ing mofo's and breaking their ankles.

At some point Luke has to make this move. It might not work but there's only one way to find out.
it will work. because you can see him cutting back door right now. no one is looking for him. he does it then his shoulders start to shrug because guys missed him...again. he doesnt get the pass in rhythm off a curl screen to pull up. doesnt happen. but he would be able to do that if it was setup. it will work. the only question is, is making lonzo look really good by utilizing all of his strengths better for the team or just better for zo? i'm a fan but not at the expense of my lakers losing games.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:09 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
For those of you too caught up in positional definitions from 50 years ago, Lonzo is at his best when he starts off of the ball in the half court. If you still need to call him a PG within that sort of framework, knock yourself out.


You may be right, but if so, he will never be the player that he was hyped to be. That might not be a bad thing, but a lot of people will have a hard time getting their brains wrapped around it.


He could still average 9-10 assists per game in that role. I've been banging this drum since well before he was drafted. You don't draft Lonzo Ball to be a high ball screen PG. If you do, you weren't paying close enough attention to him in college.


As a skills trainer who watches hours of film on players around the league and is a student of the game, I applaud your posts. I've been lurking on this forum for years but then stopped a while back and decided to make an account this year.

I feel like me and you can potentially have good discussions.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:12 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
He's always been a SG in the half court.


I do not think many watched the kid play before SL...part of him always being referred to as "complex" and "non-traditional" was because he does his best work with the ball in his hands in transition....but most of his best skills shown in college in the half court were off the ball. Look at his low usage rate in college....that was not only because he moves the ball quickly....it was also related to the fact he did not have the ball in the half court a lot depending on the lineup Alford had on the floor.

For those that say we do not have a guy to play on the ball to allow Ball to play off ball.....Holiday was not really a selfless pass first type of PG, and it worked fine @ UCLA. Actually, Holiday plays a lot more like JC than Ball.


This is probably the reason why? I was thinking he was scoring in college what has changed since then?

I was brainstorming and realized that he played off the ball more in college.
I KEEP seeing him in the NBA standing still on top of the perimeter he never moves without the ball off a screen in motion.

When he gets the ball he is not moving just standing still giving the defense ample time to pick him up.

If he was moving and hit the ball with movement he is already in attack mode and is winding up for a lay up or blow by defenders.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:40 am    Post subject:

I mean there are already plenty of times when he crosses half court and gives the ball up just to run to the weak side and disappear for the duration of the play.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:43 am    Post subject:

JrR31 wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
So now that DLO is gone people have to try and force another point guard into being a shooting guard. So they cycle continues....


He has SG size and handles.

It is a waste to just allow him to run one role. How is he going to be versatile in the league?

Guys like Dennis Smith and Irving are PG because they are short for SG.

Lonzo can match up with SG well. He might even thrive as a PG/SG role.


The problem with Lonzo is that he can't shoot or finish at the rim though.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:39 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
For those of you too caught up in positional definitions from 50 years ago, Lonzo is at his best when he starts off of the ball in the half court. If you still need to call him a PG within that sort of framework, knock yourself out.


You may be right, but if so, he will never be the player that he was hyped to be. That might not be a bad thing, but a lot of people will have a hard time getting their brains wrapped around it.


This wouldn't be the first time our Lakers FO pegged and/or hyped a player as something they weren't.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:55 am    Post subject:

KBH wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
For those of you too caught up in positional definitions from 50 years ago, Lonzo is at his best when he starts off of the ball in the half court. If you still need to call him a PG within that sort of framework, knock yourself out.


You may be right, but if so, he will never be the player that he was hyped to be. That might not be a bad thing, but a lot of people will have a hard time getting their brains wrapped around it.


This wouldn't be the first time our Lakers FO pegged and/or hyped a player as something they weren't.



Right now he's just another Rookie...sorry for those who thought this was MJ, Kobe, LeBron, etc...the writing was on the wall...

He could turn out to be a real good player one day but today he just needs to go through the normal learning curve.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:14 am    Post subject:

splashmtn wrote:
adkindo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
He's always been a SG in the half court.


I do not think many watched the kid play before SL...part of him always being referred to as "complex" and "non-traditional" was because he does his best work with the ball in his hands in transition....but most of his best skills shown in college in the half court were off the ball. Look at his low usage rate in college....that was not only because he moves the ball quickly....it was also related to the fact he did not have the ball in the half court a lot depending on the lineup Alford had on the floor.

For those that say we do not have a guy to play on the ball to allow Ball to play off ball.....Holiday was not really a selfless pass first type of PG, and it worked fine @ UCLA. Actually, Holiday plays a lot more like JC than Ball.
his usage rate is low because he gives up the ball quicker than any pass first pg i have ever seen since the 80's. thats at the nba level, and college levels. I have never seen a guy that is a pass first pg catch the ball and look for the open man so he can give it to another player with the best angle to hit said open man. he's playing chess, not checkers. its truly no nonsense basketball. he moves the ball along like someone playing a video game where you control all 5 players. This is why you will always think his best stuff is in transition. yes you are correct his best Assists are in transition when he's the one running the break or he heaves it down court for a bucket/foul when a teammate catches it right at that rim.

It doesnt mean he cant work the half court or hasnt shown he can. it means he doesnt need to because of his idea of play where you give the ball to the guy with the best angle to make the next pass for a basket. any of our favorite guards held that ball because they didnt trust anyone else with it. they were the point guards like jordan and kobe were scoring guards. they had the ultimate trust in their own abilities to handle the ball and setup teammates. Zo doesnt care. He has less of an ego than most think. less than many stars before him. less than even the magic man. there's a reason you dribble that ball so much until you can hit the open guy. of course you could pass it to a teammate that already has a great angle that could make a simple pass for the basket. but if you keep doing that. you wont average 10 assists per. you wont have room for all the flashy passes.


I am not sure what your really getting at.....as I said, moving the ball is not the only reason his usage rate was low....he often played off the ball at UCLA which also lowered his usage rate. As far as what he has proven, we can agree to disagree....I do not think he has ever proven to be highly effective as a PG in the half court.

As far as these personality traits you are assigning to him, I am not sure what to say.....do you know the guy personally or something?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:06 am    Post subject:

Lonzo would be the best BG in the league.

Bricking Guard.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:52 am    Post subject:

Extra Pass wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
For those of you too caught up in positional definitions from 50 years ago, Lonzo is at his best when he starts off of the ball in the half court. If you still need to call him a PG within that sort of framework, knock yourself out.


You may be right, but if so, he will never be the player that he was hyped to be. That might not be a bad thing, but a lot of people will have a hard time getting their brains wrapped around it.


He could still average 9-10 assists per game in that role. I've been banging this drum since well before he was drafted. You don't draft Lonzo Ball to be a high ball screen PG. If you do, you weren't paying close enough attention to him in college.


As a skills trainer who watches hours of film on players around the league and is a student of the game, I applaud your posts. I've been lurking on this forum for years but then stopped a while back and decided to make an account this year.

I feel like me and you can potentially have good discussions.


Doubtful with your disdain for analytics and reliance on the eye test.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:57 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
He's always been a SG in the half court.


I do not think many watched the kid play before SL...part of him always being referred to as "complex" and "non-traditional" was because he does his best work with the ball in his hands in transition....but most of his best skills shown in college in the half court were off the ball. Look at his low usage rate in college....that was not only because he moves the ball quickly....it was also related to the fact he did not have the ball in the half court a lot depending on the lineup Alford had on the floor.

For those that say we do not have a guy to play on the ball to allow Ball to play off ball.....Holiday was not really a selfless pass first type of PG, and it worked fine @ UCLA. Actually, Holiday plays a lot more like JC than Ball.


I was one of those, I saw Ball play 2 games in college. I am beginning to see what you and others have been posting about how to use him. It seems like Luke is beginning to see it as well. Unfortunately I donít think that the decision makers see it. We are going after that other playmaker in FA arenít we? Is that the plan? I donít get a sense that it is.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:42 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Extra Pass wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
For those of you too caught up in positional definitions from 50 years ago, Lonzo is at his best when he starts off of the ball in the half court. If you still need to call him a PG within that sort of framework, knock yourself out.


You may be right, but if so, he will never be the player that he was hyped to be. That might not be a bad thing, but a lot of people will have a hard time getting their brains wrapped around it.


He could still average 9-10 assists per game in that role. I've been banging this drum since well before he was drafted. You don't draft Lonzo Ball to be a high ball screen PG. If you do, you weren't paying close enough attention to him in college.


As a skills trainer who watches hours of film on players around the league and is a student of the game, I applaud your posts. I've been lurking on this forum for years but then stopped a while back and decided to make an account this year.

I feel like me and you can potentially have good discussions.


Doubtful with your disdain for analytics and reliance on the eye test.


No, there's middle ground for analytics. They just don't tell a complete story. I know because I've watched thousands of hours on all teams. Not just the Lakers. And not just the NBA... Numbers can make you believe something that's misleading. The perfect match is a marriage of the actual context of what happened when a analysis was produced with the results of the analysis.

Data analytics can be helpful for designing a way to play, but I've also sat down with coaches and have had conversations on how they were misleading about players value/efficiency. Many sleepless nights going over film. I'm not really gonna' say much more on this. We can agree to disagree. I'm perfectly fine and very confident with my opinion on player/team evaluation based on the experience. GT seems like someone who also watches film, regardless of how much he puts into analytics or not.

But you can do you
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:45 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
adkindo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
He's always been a SG in the half court.


I do not think many watched the kid play before SL...part of him always being referred to as "complex" and "non-traditional" was because he does his best work with the ball in his hands in transition....but most of his best skills shown in college in the half court were off the ball. Look at his low usage rate in college....that was not only because he moves the ball quickly....it was also related to the fact he did not have the ball in the half court a lot depending on the lineup Alford had on the floor.

For those that say we do not have a guy to play on the ball to allow Ball to play off ball.....Holiday was not really a selfless pass first type of PG, and it worked fine @ UCLA. Actually, Holiday plays a lot more like JC than Ball.


I was one of those, I saw Ball play 2 games in college. I am beginning to see what you and others have been posting about how to use him. It seems like Luke is beginning to see it as well. Unfortunately I donít think that the decision makers see it. We are going after that other playmaker in FA arenít we? Is that the plan? I donít get a sense that it is.


He's never moved the ball much at the half-court. Forget UCLA. I'm talking about watching him since he was an underclassmen at Chino Hills. The middle, high school days are where habits get formed. If anything, I've realized most people who form opinions on what Lonzo should be, have no idea what he actually ever was. PS. As good as his UCLA career was, that was even a bit odd compared to his AAU/chino hills playing.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:14 pm    Post subject:

We will see later against the BUCKS if Luke Waldo has found a way to make this

kid more effective offensively. I will watch stay tune for my analysis.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:27 pm    Post subject:

Already one of the best passers, game managers, playmaker in league. Heís fine at pg
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:56 pm    Post subject:

Extra Pass wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
adkindo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
He's always been a SG in the half court.


I do not think many watched the kid play before SL...part of him always being referred to as "complex" and "non-traditional" was because he does his best work with the ball in his hands in transition....but most of his best skills shown in college in the half court were off the ball. Look at his low usage rate in college....that was not only because he moves the ball quickly....it was also related to the fact he did not have the ball in the half court a lot depending on the lineup Alford had on the floor.

For those that say we do not have a guy to play on the ball to allow Ball to play off ball.....Holiday was not really a selfless pass first type of PG, and it worked fine @ UCLA. Actually, Holiday plays a lot more like JC than Ball.


I was one of those, I saw Ball play 2 games in college. I am beginning to see what you and others have been posting about how to use him. It seems like Luke is beginning to see it as well. Unfortunately I donít think that the decision makers see it. We are going after that other playmaker in FA arenít we? Is that the plan? I donít get a sense that it is.


He's never moved the ball much at the half-court. Forget UCLA. I'm talking about watching him since he was an underclassmen at Chino Hills. The middle, high school days are where habits get formed. If anything, I've realized most people who form opinions on what Lonzo should be, have no idea what he actually ever was. PS. As good as his UCLA career was, that was even a bit odd compared to his AAU/chino hills playing.


Maybe it is the case that as you play with more talented teammates, your game has to change to fit the team concept. What we should hope to see is all of them settling into their roles on the team. That is why wide scale roster changes each season is frustrating as a fan.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:04 pm    Post subject:

Halflife wrote:
Already one of the best passers, game managers, playmaker in league. Heís fine at pg


He is definitely not one of the best game managers or playmakers in the league.....and I am not sure what you consider to be the best passers...but he is not in the top handful there either. Not a knock on him....he is a 20 year old rookie in a league overflowing if not dripping with talent.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:14 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Halflife wrote:
Already one of the best passers, game managers, playmaker in league. Heís fine at pg


He is definitely not one of the best game managers or playmakers in the league.....and I am not sure what you consider to be the best passers...but he is not in the top handful there either. Not a knock on him....he is a 20 year old rookie in a league overflowing if not dripping with talent.


Assist-to-TO ratio in relation to the assist leaders? I haven't bothered to look it up but that would be a place to start.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:20 pm    Post subject:

"Shooting" guard has to be able to "shoot" the ball. Lonzo cannot "shoot" the ball hence he cannot be a "shooting" guard.
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