Team's RPM Numbers
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J.C. Smith
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:10 am    Post subject: Team's RPM Numbers

Since it's not possible to trim down the Lakers players RPM values at ESPN.com I sorted it out of personal interest earlier and am sharing the list for anyone else who is interested. I'm personally not a huge fan of +/- stats, though if you are going that route RPM is a reasonable way of doing it. Read into these what you will, just posting the numbers.

RPM

Lopez: 2.77
Randle: 1.99
Nance: 1.01
Bogut: 0.65
Zubac: 0.49
KCP: -0.87
Kuzma: -1.27
Clarkson: -1.4
Ennis: -1.49
Ball: -1.55
Hart: -2.05
Ingram: -2.32
Brewer: -2.84

Offensive RPM

Lopez: 0.84
Randle: 0.61
Clarkson: 0.02
Kuzma: -0.09
Nance: -0.48
Zubac: -0.7
KCP: -0.95
Bogut: -1.16
Ennis: -1.38
Ingram: -1.83
Hart: -1.93
Ball: -2.09
Brewer: -2.27

Defensive RPM

Lopez: 1.93
Bogut: 1.81
Nance: 1.45
Randle: 1.38
Zubac: 1.19
Ball: 0.54
KCP: 0.08
Ennis: -0.11
Hart: -0.12
Ingram: -0.49
Brewer: -0.57
Kuzma: -1.18
Clarkson: -1.42

Wins

Lopez: 1.27
Randle: 0.87
Nance: 0.73
KCP: 0.55
Kuzma: 0.5
Ball: 0.46
Clarkson: 0.32
Ingram: 0.24
Bogut: 0.13
Hart: 0.11
Ennis: 0.06
Brewer: 0.03
Zubac: 0.01
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governator
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:12 am    Post subject:

ok y'all gotta give a summary of what this RPM means
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epak
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:24 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
ok y'all gotta give a summary of what this RPM means

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:49 am    Post subject:

Simple. It's how fast their engine's running.
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J.C. Smith
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:56 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
ok y'all gotta give a summary of what this RPM means


Explanation of the stat: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/10740818/introducing-real-plus-minus
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Team's RPM Numbers

J.C. Smith wrote:
Since it's not possible to trim down the Lakers players RPM values at ESPN.com I sorted it out of personal interest earlier and am sharing the list for anyone else who is interested. I'm personally not a huge fan of +/- stats, though if you are going that route RPM is a reasonable way of doing it. Read into these what you will, just posting the numbers.

RPM

Lopez: 2.77
Randle: 1.99
Nance: 1.01
Bogut: 0.65
Zubac: 0.49
KCP: -0.87
Kuzma: -1.27
Clarkson: -1.4
Ennis: -1.49
Ball: -1.55
Hart: -2.05
Ingram: -2.32
Brewer: -2.84

Offensive RPM

Lopez: 0.84
Randle: 0.61
Clarkson: 0.02
Kuzma: -0.09
Nance: -0.48
Zubac: -0.7
KCP: -0.95
Bogut: -1.16
Ennis: -1.38
Ingram: -1.83
Hart: -1.93
Ball: -2.09
Brewer: -2.27

Defensive RPM

Lopez: 1.93
Bogut: 1.81
Nance: 1.45
Randle: 1.38
Zubac: 1.19
Ball: 0.54
KCP: 0.08
Ennis: -0.11
Hart: -0.12
Ingram: -0.49
Brewer: -0.57
Kuzma: -1.18
Clarkson: -1.42

Wins

Lopez: 1.27
Randle: 0.87
Nance: 0.73
KCP: 0.55
Kuzma: 0.5
Ball: 0.46
Clarkson: 0.32
Ingram: 0.24
Bogut: 0.13
Hart: 0.11
Ennis: 0.06
Brewer: 0.03
Zubac: 0.01


Zo numbers contradicted my expectations. Iím happy for Randle though and his defensive impact. Kuz and Ingram defensive impact does not reflect my eye test.
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textbook
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:18 pm    Post subject:

So lopez should be playing 38 min a game.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:22 pm    Post subject:

TooMuchMajicBuss wrote:
Simple. It's how fast their engine's running.


It's rebounds per minute!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:55 pm    Post subject:

textbook wrote:
So lopez should be playing 38 min a game.


Not 38, but the majority at center. He's the best two-way player on the team.
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tox
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:43 pm    Post subject:

I was hilariously convinced that Lonzo was gonna have amazing ORPM numbers this year. Lol
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tox
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:44 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
textbook wrote:
So lopez should be playing 38 min a game.


Not 38, but the majority at center. He's the best two-way player on the team.

What was Lopez's RPM last year? I imagine a lot of why he's at the top right now is a prior from last year. This ranking might suggest Julius has been better overall, because Julius's prior from last year would be dragging him down.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:45 pm    Post subject:

TooMuchMajicBuss wrote:
Simple. It's how fast their engine's running.


Fellow gear head appreciates this comment. But dang 2 to 3 rpm?- must be a really large displacement diesel or a steam engine.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:57 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
textbook wrote:
So lopez should be playing 38 min a game.


Not 38, but the majority at center. He's the best two-way player on the team.

What was Lopez's RPM last year? I imagine a lot of why he's at the top right now is a prior from last year. This ranking might suggest Julius has been better overall, because Julius's prior from last year would be dragging him down.


I consider you the expert on this. Does it also factor who they're playing against? Inferior bench players vs. starters.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:00 pm    Post subject:

hard to believe Ennis (-1.49) is better than Ingram (-2.32).

Ennis: -1.49
Ball: -1.55
Hart: -2.05
Ingram: -2.32
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tox
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:01 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
tox wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
textbook wrote:
So lopez should be playing 38 min a game.


Not 38, but the majority at center. He's the best two-way player on the team.

What was Lopez's RPM last year? I imagine a lot of why he's at the top right now is a prior from last year. This ranking might suggest Julius has been better overall, because Julius's prior from last year would be dragging him down.


I consider you the expert on this. Does it also factor who they're playing against? Inferior bench players vs. starters.

Yeah, that's what it's supposed to do. Of course, how good it is at successfully adjusting for opponent quality is a question. I find it does a pretty good job at that, though.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:03 pm    Post subject:

JustWinBaby wrote:
hard to believe Ennis (-1.49) is better than Ingram (-2.32).

Ennis: -1.49
Ball: -1.55
Hart: -2.05
Ingram: -2.32

Ingram's RPM was one of the worst in the league last year. Ingram will need to sustain his improved play for longer, in order to convince RPM that he's actually much better this year than last.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:14 pm    Post subject:

A couple general comments about RPM:

1. Beware of using it to compare players in different positions. This is because the defensive component (DRPM) will almost always greatly favor big men. This is legitimate, because the big guy standing next to the basket is likely to have a greater impact on defensive performance than the little guy out on the perimeter. You can see that in the numbers that J.C. posted.

2. In that respect, Ball's DRPM is actually extraordinary for a rookie. I posted about this in the Ball thread this morning. 0.54 ranks ninth in the league in defense by a point guard. Ball ranks ahead of some veterans who are generally considered to be good defenders. By comparison, Fox ranks dead last among point guards in DRPM.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:26 pm    Post subject:

Thank you for posting this, JCS. Since the RPM data doesn't have splits, I propose we keep a record of RPM changes month by month in this thread to track players' progress.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:34 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
I was hilariously convinced that Lonzo was gonna have amazing ORPM numbers this year. Lol


You werenít alone my friend
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:28 pm    Post subject:

On reflection, the only numbers on the chart that really jump out at me are the ORPM numbers for Clarkson and Kuzma. I would have expected them to be a bit higher.

Iím also struck by the mediocrity of Casey P.ís numbers, though Iím not surprised by them. Detroit knew what it was doing when it picked ups Bradley and let Casey P. walk. If Casey P. doesn't get it going, he is going to regret turning down $80M/5 years from Detroit.
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JustWinBaby
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
A couple general comments about RPM:

1. Beware of using it to compare players in different positions. This is because the defensive component (DRPM) will almost always greatly favor big men. This is legitimate, because the big guy standing next to the basket is likely to have a greater impact on defensive performance than the little guy out on the perimeter. You can see that in the numbers that J.C. posted.

2. In that respect, Ball's DRPM is actually extraordinary for a rookie. I posted about this in the Ball thread this morning. 0.54 ranks ninth in the league in defense by a point guard. Ball ranks ahead of some veterans who are generally considered to be good defenders. By comparison, Fox ranks dead last among point guards in DRPM.


Great point. I like to compare point guards and win% for Lonzo because he doesn't score much but his win% has greater impact.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:44 pm    Post subject:

would you say RPM is better than PER at ranking nba players?
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:01 pm    Post subject:

forzaCOREA wrote:
would you say RPM is better than PER at ranking nba players?


Yes, though it is far from perfect. PER and most of the common measures are based on box score stats, and we all know that box score stats are limited in basketball. DRPM is the only measure of defense that (mostly) passes the eyeball test for me. I wouldnít treat RPM has some sort of talismanic stat that is the embodiment of Truth. Also, as I said before, you should not use it to compare players who are not comparable (PGs and Cs for example). It requires some degree of interpretation as a result. With that in mind, RPM is more reliable than PER and the other composite box score stats.

Edit: Another way of expressing this point is that RPM does not purport to be a measure of player value. An average center may have more defensive impact than a good defensive guard, but the guardís defense maybe more valuable because a center canít play guard. You can replace an average centerís defense with another center, but it may be really hard to replace the defense of a good defensive guard.
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forzaCOREA
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:19 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
forzaCOREA wrote:
would you say RPM is better than PER at ranking nba players?


Yes, though it is far from perfect. PER and most of the common measures are based on box score stats, and we all know that box score stats are limited in basketball. DRPM is the only measure of defense that (mostly) passes the eyeball test for me. I wouldnít treat RPM has some sort of talismanic stat that is the embodiment of Truth. Also, as I said before, you should not use it to compare players who are not comparable (PGs and Cs for example). It requires some degree of interpretation as a result. With that in mind, RPM is more reliable than PER and the other composite box score stats.

Edit: Another way of expressing this point is that RPM does not purport to be a measure of player value. An average center may have more defensive impact than a good defensive guard, but the guardís defense maybe more valuable because a center canít play guard. You can replace an average centerís defense with another center, but it may be really hard to replace the defense of a good defensive guard.


thank you for the great response.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:24 pm    Post subject:

Looks like RPM is having a hard time moving on from the Russell trade.
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