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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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ChickenStu wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | Quote: |
I don't understand how you can question their thought process so strongly. What are your credentials to do so? Or track record on the draft compared to theirs? |
Considering it's already a different thought process after just 1 year? You don't find that questionable? |
One common theme I'm seeing, if we do keep these picks for ourselves, is competitiveness. You see that among all 3 of Kuz, Hart, and Wagner, our 3 most recent 1st's. Kuz had a big-time rise during the draft process and killed the Combine and workouts. Even though he didn't look like a great college shooter, he just looked the part from NBA range during workouts, and they liked him, liked his fire, too, so they were enamored with him. Hart was a bulldog and from a winning college team, and they took him. Wagner is from a winning program and has some swag to his game and isn't afraid to mix it up. And with Svi, that's another 4-year college player from a winning program.
It's possible that they just thought that Kuz, Hart, and Wagner would turn into good pros and were the best picks at the spots that they got taken. Or maybe they are flipping Wagner to another team. We'll see! |
Right. Just from an intangibles standpoint, yeah, I'd rather have Jevon Carter, Brunson, guys along those types. That's basically my argument at #25. If you're drafting for intangibles, then what on earth made Wagner stand-out? Because guys like Jevon are expected two-way guys. Brunson, at least, it's a perimeter player, not a projected defensive anchor.
I mentioned before, I like Svi's upside, almost moreso than Wagner, only because I think Svi can be adequate on defense, but think WAY higher of his upside on offense with potential point forward initiating. Like, he's the reason why the rough idea of "drafting wings that an shoot" just have so much inherent value, even if they don't always stick out with tremendous defensive ability. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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LakerSanity Moderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 33474 Location: Long Beach, California
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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I think Wagner/Kuzma are very similar picks, as is Wagner to Bryant as well. Svi is a shooter, plain and simple - he makes sense for that reason. I wasn't high on any of the players left at the time we picked regardless. The guys I liked were gone. _________________ LakersGround's Terms of Service
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Lakerz113 Star Player
Joined: 15 Mar 2015 Posts: 2445
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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Mike@LG wrote: | ChickenStu wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | Quote: |
I don't understand how you can question their thought process so strongly. What are your credentials to do so? Or track record on the draft compared to theirs? |
Considering it's already a different thought process after just 1 year? You don't find that questionable? |
One common theme I'm seeing, if we do keep these picks for ourselves, is competitiveness. You see that among all 3 of Kuz, Hart, and Wagner, our 3 most recent 1st's. Kuz had a big-time rise during the draft process and killed the Combine and workouts. Even though he didn't look like a great college shooter, he just looked the part from NBA range during workouts, and they liked him, liked his fire, too, so they were enamored with him. Hart was a bulldog and from a winning college team, and they took him. Wagner is from a winning program and has some swag to his game and isn't afraid to mix it up. And with Svi, that's another 4-year college player from a winning program.
It's possible that they just thought that Kuz, Hart, and Wagner would turn into good pros and were the best picks at the spots that they got taken. Or maybe they are flipping Wagner to another team. We'll see! |
Right. Just from an intangibles standpoint, yeah, I'd rather have Jevon Carter, Brunson, guys along those types. That's basically my argument at #25. If you're drafting for intangibles, then what on earth made Wagner stand-out? Because guys like Jevon are expected two-way guys. Brunson, at least, it's a perimeter player, not a projected defensive anchor.
I mentioned before, I like Svi's upside, almost moreso than Wagner, only because I think Svi can be adequate on defense, but think WAY higher of his upside on offense with potential point forward initiating. Like, he's the reason why the rough idea of "drafting wings that an shoot" just have so much inherent value, even if they don't always stick out with tremendous defensive ability. |
Maybe they use the workouts as their main source for drafting?
kuz and hart killed their workouts last year if im correct. |
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justsomelakerfan Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Jul 2016 Posts: 10939
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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eddiejonze wrote: | Maybe the lakers thinking with Mo was what the bucks tried with Thon Maker: Tall guy with a good canvas and hope he breaks out.
Maker- Garnett and Mo- Dirk ( however neither is going to happen lol)
That could soften the blow because at least we got our project at #25 instead of #10 like the Bucks. |
Without adding my own commentary if they're right about this or not, this is my theory on why they had Wagner ranked higher than some of the other prospects at that range. Which also checks out with the Bonga pick, and probably Kuzma last year.
I think the three names Ohm tweeted out on draft day the Lakers were interested in at 25 were Kevin Huerter, Wagner and Spellman, and they were listed in that order. When Holiday was dropping I saw his name thrown out there a lot by some reporter.
I mean Wagner *just* turned 21. He's a month older than Lauri - I'm not saying they're comparable prospects, but maybe the Lakers just saw something they can mold that is particularly valuable. _________________ Austin Reaves
Tweeter: @sarah_dotbiz
Last edited by justsomelakerfan on Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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Btw Mike I also suffer from migraines so I know how debilitating that can be. |
Appreciate the props. I've just never had waves of migraines like I've had this month. Haven't been able to pinpoint the trigger just yet, but at least I was 9 months migraine free.
I mean, I can even understand why Melton slipped down that far; the fear that he's Tony Allen and practically gives you nothing on offense. When extrapolating his frosh stats out to per-40, it's one of the indicators of offensive aggression, but I came into the draft knowing he'd be a 5th option guy anyway, but at least he could defend.
Just so it doesn't get misconstrued, I super want Wagner to succeed. It would be so sick to have a player on the Lakers that stretches the floor at 5 and can do more than just shoot. Getting 5-out spacing is the deadliest thing in the NBA. I just wish there was more proof of defensive ability that was projectable to the next level. The last two games of his NCAA career, definitely were not in his favor, and it was a perfect contrast of pure paint player vs. pure shooting big. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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Come on guys. No one drafted after Wagner can light up a room like Mo can.
Mo "Light up the room" Wagner!
Future Laker, Hawk, Spur or Bull. |
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ChickenStu Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 31929 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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Mike@LG wrote: | ChickenStu wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | Quote: |
I don't understand how you can question their thought process so strongly. What are your credentials to do so? Or track record on the draft compared to theirs? |
Considering it's already a different thought process after just 1 year? You don't find that questionable? |
One common theme I'm seeing, if we do keep these picks for ourselves, is competitiveness. You see that among all 3 of Kuz, Hart, and Wagner, our 3 most recent 1st's. Kuz had a big-time rise during the draft process and killed the Combine and workouts. Even though he didn't look like a great college shooter, he just looked the part from NBA range during workouts, and they liked him, liked his fire, too, so they were enamored with him. Hart was a bulldog and from a winning college team, and they took him. Wagner is from a winning program and has some swag to his game and isn't afraid to mix it up. And with Svi, that's another 4-year college player from a winning program.
It's possible that they just thought that Kuz, Hart, and Wagner would turn into good pros and were the best picks at the spots that they got taken. Or maybe they are flipping Wagner to another team. We'll see! |
Right. Just from an intangibles standpoint, yeah, I'd rather have Jevon Carter, Brunson, guys along those types. That's basically my argument at #25. If you're drafting for intangibles, then what on earth made Wagner stand-out? Because guys like Jevon are expected two-way guys. Brunson, at least, it's a perimeter player, not a projected defensive anchor.
I mentioned before, I like Svi's upside, almost moreso than Wagner, only because I think Svi can be adequate on defense, but think WAY higher of his upside on offense with potential point forward initiating. Like, he's the reason why the rough idea of "drafting wings that an shoot" just have so much inherent value, even if they don't always stick out with tremendous defensive ability. |
I liked Brunson, personally. Think he is multi-faceted on offense and that he will have a nice, 10+ year career. Perhaps not as a starter, but just as a nice player. With Carter, perhaps the Lakers simply thought there was no guarantee whatsoever that he can help offensively. He can't finish, so if he's not shooting it well, what's he doing for you? Now, he shot OK in college, but maybe they don't think he can make NBA range 3's. With Wagner, they may see a guy who can help in multiple ways offensively, while hoping that he isn't a lost cause defensively. As Cranjis is pointing out on Twitter, Wagner was one of the best offensive players in college last season (something like 95th percentile), and excels in the pick and roll, and could be a good match with Lonzo there. |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Maybe they use the workouts as their main source for drafting?
kuz and hart killed their workouts last year if im correct.
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And that's fine, but I don't think Wagner was the only guy that killed workouts, ya know? Especially with good or great intangibles? _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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Lakerz113 Star Player
Joined: 15 Mar 2015 Posts: 2445
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Mike@LG wrote: | Quote: | Maybe they use the workouts as their main source for drafting?
kuz and hart killed their workouts last year if im correct.
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And that's fine, but I don't think Wagner was the only guy that killed workouts, ya know? Especially with good or great intangibles? |
Just trying to reason it out not challenge what your saying. I will say the percentage of 1st round picks that actually turn into solid players is quite low, last year has a lot of us spoiled. |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
I liked Brunson, personally. Think he is multi-faceted on offense and that he will have a nice, 10+ year career. Perhaps not as a starter, but just as a nice player. With Carter, perhaps the Lakers simply thought there was no guarantee whatsoever that he can help offensively. He can't finish, so if he's not shooting it well, what's he doing for you? Now, he shot OK in college, but maybe they don't think he can make NBA range 3's. With Wagner, they may see a guy who can help in multiple ways offensively, while hoping that he isn't a lost cause defensively. As Cranjis is pointing out on Twitter, Wagner was one of the best offensive players in college last season (something like 95th percentile), and excels in the pick and roll, and could be a good match with Lonzo there. |
About Brunson - Right, which is why even though I had him lower on my list, my list favored wings over small PGs, but at least it would be like drafting the purest shooting Derek Fisher out there.
As for Carter - I do think he may get into some foul trouble early on, but dude was getting agents to cancel workouts against him to stop from their client looking bad. It's not like that 3pt shot is awful, and you're absolutely getting 100% NBA level conditioning/physicality/effort on defense every night. That happens whether or not the shot goes.
It's not Wagner's offense I'm worried about. It's just defense. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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PlantedTanks Star Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2017 Posts: 3156
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Lakerz113 wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | ChickenStu wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | Quote: |
I don't understand how you can question their thought process so strongly. What are your credentials to do so? Or track record on the draft compared to theirs? |
Considering it's already a different thought process after just 1 year? You don't find that questionable? |
One common theme I'm seeing, if we do keep these picks for ourselves, is competitiveness. You see that among all 3 of Kuz, Hart, and Wagner, our 3 most recent 1st's. Kuz had a big-time rise during the draft process and killed the Combine and workouts. Even though he didn't look like a great college shooter, he just looked the part from NBA range during workouts, and they liked him, liked his fire, too, so they were enamored with him. Hart was a bulldog and from a winning college team, and they took him. Wagner is from a winning program and has some swag to his game and isn't afraid to mix it up. And with Svi, that's another 4-year college player from a winning program.
It's possible that they just thought that Kuz, Hart, and Wagner would turn into good pros and were the best picks at the spots that they got taken. Or maybe they are flipping Wagner to another team. We'll see! |
Right. Just from an intangibles standpoint, yeah, I'd rather have Jevon Carter, Brunson, guys along those types. That's basically my argument at #25. If you're drafting for intangibles, then what on earth made Wagner stand-out? Because guys like Jevon are expected two-way guys. Brunson, at least, it's a perimeter player, not a projected defensive anchor.
I mentioned before, I like Svi's upside, almost moreso than Wagner, only because I think Svi can be adequate on defense, but think WAY higher of his upside on offense with potential point forward initiating. Like, he's the reason why the rough idea of "drafting wings that an shoot" just have so much inherent value, even if they don't always stick out with tremendous defensive ability. |
Maybe they use the workouts as their main source for drafting?
kuz and hart killed their workouts last year if im correct. |
I would hope they use the workouts to confirm what they had seen in their game performance, experience their personality, test their mental toughness and their Bbiq. |
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adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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justsomelakerfan wrote: | When Holiday was dropping I saw his name thrown out there a lot by some reporter. |
I think it was emplay that reported that they were very interested when about the 20th pick was made
Last edited by adkindo on Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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How much weight do you guys put into the following:
1. Physical looks
2. Interview skills
3. Character
Last edited by epak on Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lakerz113 Star Player
Joined: 15 Mar 2015 Posts: 2445
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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PlantedTanks wrote: | Lakerz113 wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | ChickenStu wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | Quote: |
I don't understand how you can question their thought process so strongly. What are your credentials to do so? Or track record on the draft compared to theirs? |
Considering it's already a different thought process after just 1 year? You don't find that questionable? |
One common theme I'm seeing, if we do keep these picks for ourselves, is competitiveness. You see that among all 3 of Kuz, Hart, and Wagner, our 3 most recent 1st's. Kuz had a big-time rise during the draft process and killed the Combine and workouts. Even though he didn't look like a great college shooter, he just looked the part from NBA range during workouts, and they liked him, liked his fire, too, so they were enamored with him. Hart was a bulldog and from a winning college team, and they took him. Wagner is from a winning program and has some swag to his game and isn't afraid to mix it up. And with Svi, that's another 4-year college player from a winning program.
It's possible that they just thought that Kuz, Hart, and Wagner would turn into good pros and were the best picks at the spots that they got taken. Or maybe they are flipping Wagner to another team. We'll see! |
Right. Just from an intangibles standpoint, yeah, I'd rather have Jevon Carter, Brunson, guys along those types. That's basically my argument at #25. If you're drafting for intangibles, then what on earth made Wagner stand-out? Because guys like Jevon are expected two-way guys. Brunson, at least, it's a perimeter player, not a projected defensive anchor.
I mentioned before, I like Svi's upside, almost moreso than Wagner, only because I think Svi can be adequate on defense, but think WAY higher of his upside on offense with potential point forward initiating. Like, he's the reason why the rough idea of "drafting wings that an shoot" just have so much inherent value, even if they don't always stick out with tremendous defensive ability. |
Maybe they use the workouts as their main source for drafting?
kuz and hart killed their workouts last year if im correct. |
I would hope they use the workouts to confirm what they had seen in their game performance, experience their personality, test their mental toughness and their Bbiq. |
As would I, just trying to figure out why they went with Mo. |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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Lakerz113 wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | Quote: | Maybe they use the workouts as their main source for drafting?
kuz and hart killed their workouts last year if im correct.
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And that's fine, but I don't think Wagner was the only guy that killed workouts, ya know? Especially with good or great intangibles? |
Just trying to reason it out not challenge what your saying. I will say the percentage of 1st round picks that actually turn into solid players is quite low, last year has a lot of us spoiled. |
I didn't mean to give the impression you were challenging me.
As for the percentage of 1st round picks turning into NBA players, personally, I think that's because of the lack of great thought process with a lot of NBA teams (like the Nik Stauskas example earlier). I think the bar is vastly different if you're the Lakers or Spurs, both with hit rates well above the average. Even the Nuggets have an amazing hit rate, they just trade them away.
Not that Bagley is a bad prospect, but you didn't draft Doncic because Bagley was the guy in the lottery you have medicals on? Okay. Go Kings. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans.
Last edited by Mike@LG on Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lakerz113 Star Player
Joined: 15 Mar 2015 Posts: 2445
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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epak wrote: | adkindo wrote: | justsomelakerfan wrote: | When Holiday was dropping I saw his name thrown out there a lot by some reporter. |
I think it was emplay that reported that they were very interesting when about the 20th pick was made |
Did we get him? I missed the draft. I had to pick up food for the wife. |
I think we traded the pick for Mo Willimas |
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ChickenStu Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 31929 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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adkindo wrote: | justsomelakerfan wrote: | When Holiday was dropping I saw his name thrown out there a lot by some reporter. |
I think it was emplay that reported that they were very interested when about the 20th pick was made |
Yes, and I think GT also tweeted something to the effect of thinking that we would be hard-pressed to pass on Holiday if he were there at 25. |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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ChickenStu wrote: | adkindo wrote: | justsomelakerfan wrote: | When Holiday was dropping I saw his name thrown out there a lot by some reporter. |
I think it was emplay that reported that they were very interested when about the 20th pick was made |
Yes, and I think GT also tweeted something to the effect of thinking that we would be hard-pressed to pass on Holiday if he were there at 25. |
They would have been a hell of a legit pick at 25. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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epak wrote: | adkindo wrote: | justsomelakerfan wrote: | When Holiday was dropping I saw his name thrown out there a lot by some reporter. |
I think it was emplay that reported that they were very interesting when about the 20th pick was made |
Did we get him? I missed the draft. I had to pick up food for the wife. |
what? took you 5 hours to pick up food for the wife? I guess she really wanted "authentic" mexican that night? No, once Holiday slipped past some potential late teen suitors....emplay (I think...or maybe GT...it was one of our guys that was sourced) reported that the Lakers would be interested if he made it to #25, |
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PlantedTanks Star Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2017 Posts: 3156
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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ChickenStu wrote: | adkindo wrote: | justsomelakerfan wrote: | When Holiday was dropping I saw his name thrown out there a lot by some reporter. |
I think it was emplay that reported that they were very interested when about the 20th pick was made |
Yes, and I think GT also tweeted something to the effect of thinking that we would be hard-pressed to pass on Holiday if he were there at 25. |
Can't remember. Did Holiday workout for the Lakers. |
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justsomelakerfan Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Jul 2016 Posts: 10939
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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I see Moe more as an upside pick than an NBA ready or 'fit' pick. Because I don't think he's NBA ready, and what roster will he actually 'fit' with? It's not even entirely a given Lonzo will be on the team. I think they thought he was BPA, full stop. _________________ Austin Reaves
Tweeter: @sarah_dotbiz |
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adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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ChickenStu wrote: | adkindo wrote: | justsomelakerfan wrote: | When Holiday was dropping I saw his name thrown out there a lot by some reporter. |
I think it was emplay that reported that they were very interested when about the 20th pick was made |
Yes, and I think GT also tweeted something to the effect of thinking that we would be hard-pressed to pass on Holiday if he were there at 25. |
maybe it was just GT and not emplay....I just recall it was a tweet from one of them. |
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ChickenStu Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 31929 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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epak wrote: | How much weight do you guys put into the following:
1. Physical looks
2. Interview skills
3. Character |
Like Jeanie marching into the draft room and saying "sorry, but I want us to take Landry Shamet because he looks like Fredo's son and 'The Godfather' was my dad's favorite movie"?
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adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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PlantedTanks wrote: | ChickenStu wrote: | adkindo wrote: | justsomelakerfan wrote: | When Holiday was dropping I saw his name thrown out there a lot by some reporter. |
I think it was emplay that reported that they were very interested when about the 20th pick was made |
Yes, and I think GT also tweeted something to the effect of thinking that we would be hard-pressed to pass on Holiday if he were there at 25. |
Can't remember. Did Holiday workout for the Lakers. |
do not recall....but Magic was at a couple UCLA games this season....and several last season...so I think he had a formed opinion on Holiday.....but no clue what that was
Last edited by adkindo on Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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justsomelakerfan Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Jul 2016 Posts: 10939
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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epak wrote: | How much weight do you guys put into the following:
1. Physical looks
2. Interview skills
3. Character |
I actually put a whole lot more into character/intangibles than I used to, watching this last season play out compared to the previous.
Sadly for Moe, I guess LG puts a lot of value in looks. But I guess Lakers certainly have a type. _________________ Austin Reaves
Tweeter: @sarah_dotbiz |
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