Josh Hart and Kyle Kuzma were impressed by his workout -- said he plays with high energy and would be fun to play with.
Luke Walton praised Wagners IQ, Passing, Unselfishness, Playing the game the right way etc
To me, though, it seemed a lot of people were focused on perimeter players. I think if front court players were on anyones mind (which is understandable considering how many the Lakers have) this pick would be much less controversial.
1. Wings, guards, then bigs generally speaking, have the most value in the league whether they're drafted or traded for. Wagner wasn't mentioned much because, bigs have to do two things to stick; play like a wing player (best case Anthony Davis here) or defend in space and provide rim protection (best case Clint Capela here). It's more difficult to see Wagner play like a wing.
2. IQ, passing, unselfishness. Isn't that Evans, Okobo, Brunson, etc? I know Jacob Evans shot looked horrible during the Laker workout, but just prior to the draft, he slowed the release and it looked SO much better. Part of the Lakers' philosophy is positionless basketball. Guys like Evans tie into that too. Wagner, not so much.
3. The fact that seems like more of an intangibles pick than a skills pick, is what surprises me the most. Wagner is a hell of a shooter, but he wasn't the only elite shooter there. The Lakers already drafted Svi. Shamet as a 4th or 5th option guy would be scary too, and at least I don't think he's as much of a liability because he's not expected to protect the paint like Mo should.
For Pete's sake, Shamet looked like he couldn't get his shot off during PreDraft scrimmages, but he is the 100th percentile in contested halfcourt shooting. 55.6%FG. All he has to do is spot up.
I hope he surprises on the defensive end this summer. Not that Kuzma's defense was that great, but at least you can see how lightfooted he is and he was just really bouncy. You can build defense off of that.
Quote:
“Kyle Kuzma and Josh Hart were actually at Moe Wagner’s workout, and both of them were elbowing Earvin and I, saying, ‘Man, this guy would be fun to play with. He plays with energy, he’s light on his feet,'” Pelinka said after the Draft concluded.
Some of y'all (not you, Mike, specifically) make it seem like he's slow, plodding center. He tested pretty well at the combine, no?
Among Centers that participated (granted some of the bigger names didn't participate) he placed top 5 in Max Vertical Leap, Shuttle Run, Lane Agility, Three Quarter Sprint
If we're talking about all participants..
In the Shuttle Run he did better than Jalen Brunson, Donte DiVincenzo, Jacob Evans, Zhaire Smith, Anfernee Simons, Khyri Thomas, and Shake Milton
His numbers are pretty close to Jordan Bell's last year in terms of Shuttle Run, Lane Agility and 3/4 Sprint. I'm not saying thats all thats needed.. but Jordan Bell is looked at as a good prospect. It's not like he blocks a lot of shots.
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:29 pm Post subject:
One thing that really caught my attention was beyond free agent signings this summer.....all 4 teams in the West that finished with worst records than us improved through the draft.
PHX - still young, but I really liked their draft. Ayton and Bridges will help them next season while Okobo could be their PG of the future. If Knight and Booker are healthy next season, combined with what is expected to be much better coaching....they will be significantly better than they were this season.
Memphis - they should be better simply with Gasol and Conley being healthy...and probably improved their defense with the additions of Jackson and Carter.
Dallas - Luka and Brunson are supposed to be ready now players.....and many think Luka can make a difference immediately. A lot will depend if they fill their Center position.
Sacramento - I am in the minority it seems....but I expect Bagley to have a monster rookie year and be a top ROY candidate.
Last edited by adkindo on Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:31 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Not looking at numbers but it seems most centers in today's NBA are average defenders with the exception of a few.
Has the importance of rim protection lessened with more offensive emphasis on 3 pt shooting and increased pace?
For a center Mo is fairly light footed and bouncy. Hopefully they can also build on that.
Between a PF and C at least one has to provide defense and likewise one has to be able to shoot otherwise spacing would be terrible. If Randle is on the team then the C needs to be able to take the role as the shooter i.e. Wagner.
I think the importance of rim protection is higher than ever, especially with the emphasis of 3pt shooting and pace. Teams want 5-out spacing for 1 reason. No back-line defense. You need a guy more than every to make that read, get there, and provide that back-line defense. If not, then at least contain a perimeter player to deny penetration and force a bad shot.
Randle at least flashed the ability to switch on defense, and we really saw the benefits of it last season after 4 years of progress. But if Randle is on the team, how is it any different to have Wagner there instead of say, Kuzma, who looks like he added 10lbs to 20lbs of bulk this offseason already?
About that lightfootedness, I didn't see it against Villanova in that last game, and that's as close as it gets NCAA ball replicating 5-out spacing at the NBA level. Wagner totally ran out of gas because he was overworked from the last game into the 1st half of Villanova, but dude still has to keep his hands up, and LAL is a more switch heavy team than Michigan is.
Like Kuzma, he has to out-offense, his defense. Just would have been nice to get a guy that could play both ends without having to worry about developing one side of the floor so much. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:37 pm Post subject:
Quote:
If we're talking about all participants..
How much do you trust those athletic tests to be replicated in an actual game?
Jordan Bell had a 5.5% block rate at the NBA level, good for 2.5bpg per 36min.
That's down from his NCAA level 8.5% block rate, which is still absurd, especially considering he's a switchable PF/C prototype.
Moe Wagner, had a 2% block rate. Per-40 NCAA level, that's 0.7bpg.
Whether it's technique, energy, reaction time, IQ, whatever, the results from the combine aren't resulting in rim protection at the NCAA level.
If you're saying those combine results may reflect swat protection, that's one thing, but that is a very very rare skill that gets improved on, and it's slow to improve. Both Kuzma and Randle have these issues as well, and it's just tough to get them mentally focused off of their man as opposed to actually defending the rim.
The one thing he does really well on defense, is contest jumpshots. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
I still think Mo Wagner isn't being received well due to the lack of "coverage" he got on here.
I really do not understand this thought....Mo Wagner was one of the most well known players in college basketball. Most of the guys that were frequently in this thread could have gave a solid scouting report of Wagner last summer.
ch3cky0selff00 wrote:
Josh Hart and Kyle Kuzma were impressed by his workout -- said he plays with high energy and would be fun to play with.
Maybe I am cynical, but this made me laugh when Pelinka said it. If I was a rookie SG or Combo/PF....I would also be at workouts talking up the Center to be the 1st round pick. This is a zero sum game. Does anyone think that Hart would be encouraging Pelinka to take Kevin Heurter? Kuzma was not hoping Michael Porter Jr. slipped to #25.
ch3cky0selff00 wrote:
To me, though, it seemed a lot of people were focused on perimeter players. I think if front court players were on anyones mind (which is understandable considering how many the Lakers have) this pick would be much less controversial.
75% of the board was excited on draft night because they thought Robert Williams (Center) had slipped to us @ #25. Probably the most common name mentioned and discussed related to the #25 pick before the draft was Mitchell Robinson (Center).
Mitchell Robinson was rumored to have a promise from the Lakers. Without that, I doubt he would've gotten discussed much. I'm talking about the months leading up the draft.. perimeter players dominated the discussions. I followed it.
I'd like to think Josh Hart and Kyle Kuzma have more character than that. I guess we'll never know the answer to that lol I won't pretend to have inside knowledge on the situation and their motives.
In any case, we'll just agree to disagree. You were very vocal on draft night that you think Wagner and Svi are players that'll play well in the summer league and that's about it and that you'll end up liking guys that aren't drafted more than the ones who the Lakers drafted.
I root for all players to do well.. so hopefully we're all right come this time next year
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:47 pm Post subject:
^^^honestly, I would not really put it on Kuz and Harts character....if that was their motivation, I would not blame them at all. In this world....and especially a world of less than 400....one has to look out for themselves and their family first. We still see HOF players in the NFL get miffed when a high draft pick is used at their position....guys that already have earned $50 Million or more in their career.....but your right in that I do not know for sure what their motivations are.
I do not think I have been overly vocal....I was not pleased....or more so frustrated by the draft, but I have not tried to be a vocal critic of the players selected in any mean spirited manner.
How much do you trust those athletic tests to be replicated in an actual game?
Jordan Bell had a 5.5% block rate at the NBA level, good for 2.5bpg per 36min.
That's down from his NCAA level 8.5% block rate, which is still absurd, especially considering he's a switchable PF/C prototype.
Moe Wagner, had a 2% block rate. Per-40 NCAA level, that's 0.7bpg.
Whether it's technique, energy, reaction time, IQ, whatever, the results from the combine aren't resulting in rim protection at the NCAA level.
If you're saying those combine results may reflect swat protection, that's one thing, but that is a very very rare skill that gets improved on, and it's slow to improve. Both Kuzma and Randle have these issues as well, and it's just tough to get them mentally focused off of their man as opposed to actually defending the rim.
The one thing he does really well on defense, is contest jumpshots.
I was just mentioning that for comparisons sake. Dude can run the floor. That's a plus for a team that likes to push the tempo. He'd be good for rim runs methinks. He's not off-the-charts athletic but he's no Marc Gasol.
I just feel like a lot of people are writing off Mo Wagner because he wasn't "their choice." Like, if San Antonio or Boston chose Wagner I feel like people would be complaining how we missed out on him.
In any case, I just look forward to summer league and this time next year. Hopefully everything works out and we can all collectively go back to being happy with our draft picks. This draft is really giving me D'Angelo Russell / Jahlil Okafor vibes where the board is sort of divided. Granted not as extreme lol.
Last edited by ch3cky0selff00 on Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
^^^honestly, I would not really put it on Kuz and Harts character....if that was their motivation, I would not blame them at all. In this world....and especially a world of less than 400....one has to look out for themselves and their family first. We still see HOF players in the NFL get miffed when a high draft pick is used at their position....guys that already have earned $50 Million or more in their career.....but your right in that I do not know for sure what their motivations are.
I do not think I have been overly vocal....I was not pleased....or more so frustrated by the draft, but I have not tried to be a vocal critic of the players selected in any mean spirited manner.
Not at all. I wasn't saying it was mean spirited. It's just at this stage you're not coming down from your stance (I mean.. when someone says they'll probably like undrafted players more than the ones drafted -- what does that tell you? Lol) and I'm not coming down from mine. I like the pick. I think it was BPA and the fact that Luke, Pelinka, Hart and Kuzma had very good things to say about him puts me at ease.
Now, come summer league and half-way through the season? My stance can soften.
On paper though, with everything thats been reported from his IQ, his shooting, the way the whole workout intensity changes for the better when he participates.. the whole culture fit.. I'm more than happy.
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:03 pm Post subject:
@Mike....any general thoughts about the group of UFDA's we brought in for SL....Newman, Berry, Pope, Carroll, and Williams? Along with Wagner, Svi and Thomas Bryant......doubt there will be a better overall shooting team in SL.
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:08 pm Post subject:
ch3cky0selff00 wrote:
All that's missing is Matt Thomas
maybe not? He is one reason I was really surprised they gave the 2 Way to Newman so quickly....but maybe they can get Thomas to return if he feels he has an honest chance at making the roster.
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:21 pm Post subject:
ch3cky0selff00 wrote:
I was only mentioning him because you mentioned the shooting ability on the summer league team lol.
I do hope the Lakers give him another look both for summer league and the regular roster.. he shot 45% with Monbus Obradoiro this past season.
he would give "Moe" a run for his money for SL/Vegas favorite....do not recall a SL player that did not make the roster being more beloved than Thomas. I bet a month has not passed that his name has not been mentioned on LG.
but even guys like Berry and Pope who are not knock down shooters are capable and will shoot from the outside....it should be fun.
One thing that really caught my attention was beyond free agent signings this summer.....all 4 teams in the West that finished with worst records than us improved through the draft.
PHX - still young, but I really liked their draft. Ayton and Bridges will help them next season while Okobo could be their PG of the future. If Knight and Booker are healthy next season, combined with what is expected to be much better coaching....they will be significantly better than they were this season.
Memphis - they should be better simply with Gasol and Conley being healthy...and probably improved their defense with the additions of Jackson and Carter.
Dallas - Luka and Brunson are supposed to be ready now players.....and many think Luka can make a difference immediately. A lot will depend if they fill their Center position.
Sacramento - I am in the minority it seems....but I expect Bagley to have a monster rookie year and be a top ROY candidate.
I think I'll take the development of 2nd and 3rd year players who know what they need to do to produce over a rookie not named Magic, Shaq, or LeBron.
The jump from college to pros is tremendous. PHX in 2 to 3 years...I do agree...they look impressive...the other teams I'm not even remotely convinced they are in our league particularly if we get even on targeted FA.
And this is for you adkindo...check this out...you'll love this kid. He's very smart, great locker room fit, and plays damn hard.
_________________ "If You're Afraid To Fail...Then You're Probably Going To Fail."
- Kobe
How much do you trust those athletic tests to be replicated in an actual game?
Jordan Bell had a 5.5% block rate at the NBA level, good for 2.5bpg per 36min.
That's down from his NCAA level 8.5% block rate, which is still absurd, especially considering he's a switchable PF/C prototype.
Moe Wagner, had a 2% block rate. Per-40 NCAA level, that's 0.7bpg.
Whether it's technique, energy, reaction time, IQ, whatever, the results from the combine aren't resulting in rim protection at the NCAA level.
If you're saying those combine results may reflect swat protection, that's one thing, but that is a very very rare skill that gets improved on, and it's slow to improve. Both Kuzma and Randle have these issues as well, and it's just tough to get them mentally focused off of their man as opposed to actually defending the rim.
The one thing he does really well on defense, is contest jumpshots.
He won't ever be a shot blocker...but he has great hands and will be one of the top centers in steals. _________________ "If You're Afraid To Fail...Then You're Probably Going To Fail."
- Kobe
How much weight do you guys put into the following:
1. Physical looks
2. Interview skills
3. Character
This!
The Lakers have a clear ethos now for the type of player they are looking for later in the 1st round of the draft.
1. Productive at a particular skill from a solid winning program.
2. Articulate.
3. Great Team Guy.
4. Hard Worker...Consistently Improves...Excellent Fundamentals.
5. No Character Concerns or Incidents.
6. Tough Minded...Will No Back Down.
7. Gym Rats that LOVE Basketball.
These are typically the types of guys that reach their ceiling and can be productive immediately. Nance, Kuz, Hart, Mo...these are guys that will be solid pros and perhaps can be even more. These are also the types of guys that you can depend on when things get tough and who perform in adverse situations and environments.
I'd much rather have Mo who can space the floor at the 5 and will give you everything he has...and who plays with obvious passion and toughness then a guy who misses his 1st conference call because he overslept or a high school kid that puts his agents on a merry go round and no one is sure if he is really dedicated to his craft. _________________ "If You're Afraid To Fail...Then You're Probably Going To Fail."
- Kobe
That's what it looks like.
Offense with no defense.
So he's a back up 5 that can put points on the board but who likely will be a liability on the defensive end for traditional centers.
Yeah I can live with that at 25 because he keeps the offense moving...without the 3 ball I would hate this pick...but without the 3 ball he wouldn't even be a top 100 prospect. _________________ "If You're Afraid To Fail...Then You're Probably Going To Fail."
- Kobe
An average athlete lacking great speed and leaping ability ... Foot speed is a big liability. He may struggle to stay in front of NBA athletes at the center position ... Needs to improve as a post player, gain strength and develop a repertoire of back to the basket moves ... Defense is a real weakness at this point due to lack of lateral speed and lack of strength. His length is a big plus, but he'll need to continue to work on becoming stronger and learn to anticipate in order to overcome his lack of quickness ... Despite being a younger guy, his upside appears limited by his lack of explosiveness and foot speed ...
Moe Wagner? Nope... the guy who just signed a max contract in Denver.
That's what it looks like.
Offense with no defense.
Big, smart, coordinated and relatively mobile. He was a little weak and soft in college and his foot speed isn’t great but he plays hard and he’s got the potential to be a serviceable defender IMO.
I know most draft guys don’t put as much stock in mentality/winning experience as me but those two things have been consistent in every Maginka pick and I’m a huge fan.
Lonzo-UCLA had the winningest year in a while
Kuz-Utah is a hard nosed defense first program, 3 years experience
Hart- Elite hard nosed winning program, 4 years experience
Wagner-Winning program, similar offensive role, 3 years experience
Svi- Elite hard nosed winning program, 4 years experience
They are determined to build the right culture and I think Mo is a great pick while considering that AND fit. I believe they think this kid will buy in and they can turn him into a serviceable defender to go along with his offensive gifts.
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I won't pretend to have inside knowledge on the situation and their motives.
