What is Chris Paul's legacy?
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dont_be_a_wuss
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:06 pm    Post subject:

Always injured in the playoffs. Playoffs underachiever. Post season crybaby.

Not sure how long ago it was, maybe 2 years, but Clips were facing the Gizz in the playoffs, and just constantly bitching about how they were injured. The grizz just laughed their ass off and replied, it's the playoffs after an 82 game season, we are all beat up and in pain, stop bitching, Chris Paul!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:08 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
At the end of the day there is no proof, just biased opinion. Using team success to rate an individual is pretty dumb. So if Paul had been in the Spurs and won a title he would have been a better player? Despite being the exact same player? I realize people need some tipping point to say that my guy is better than your guy but why not use their play?


I get your point, although he probably would be a better player on the spurs...


There would have been less pressure on him if he was on the Spurs. And playing for Popovich and with Tim Duncan will make a PG look better. He likely would have had a much easier time getting past teams like Memphis and Houston, and didnít need to beat the Spurs because he joined them.

I think Paul will sort of be looked at the way the some of the 90ís stars are viewed. Guys like Barkley, Stockton and Ewing never won despite being great players. Payton never won in his prime. Ewing was clearly a better player though IMO. And Barkley did win an MVP.

One difference that hurts him however is unlike those other players, his teams never advanced deep into the playoffs. But that could change this year with the Rockets. The conference is weaker than it has been in a long time and I canít remember a time when he clearly played for one of the top 2 teams in the West.


Last edited by Steve007 on Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:15 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
slavavov wrote:
activeverb wrote:
slavavov wrote:
activeverb wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
A ring won't change his legacy IMO because he's now just a role player and not the guy.

Plus, HOU isn't winning a ring any time soon.


I don't think a single ring changes the perception of a player as much as some fans think.

When a great player wins a ring while still playing at that same level it fully validates all of their talent and skills, and that they are now a made man. John Elway and Kevin Garnett come to mind.


I am not sure what "made man" means in this context. For Kevin Garnett, it was a nice checklist item that eliminated the Charles Barkley "he never won a ring" criticism, but as I said I don't think the ring materially changed Garnett's reputation.

I mean, if you saw Garnett differently after he won a ring, cool but I can't say I did.

When a great player has been around for a while and has lost championship opportunities, they tend to be seen as lacking something intangible. Winning a ring proves those pundits wrong. Seems like more and more people these days think rings don't matter when looking at a player's legacy (see Lebron James), but I think they do because why else do you play?

Take John Elway. Even though he had that memorable drive in the AFC championship game one year, he lost 3 Super Bowls and was thought to be a loser. Then he won a Super Bowl against Favre and suddenly he was seen as one of the greatest QBs and clutch performers in NFL history.

At the end of the day the proof is in the pudding.


I don't think it's worthwhile to compare NBA and NFL players since the games are so different, and one player doesn't make as much of a difference in the NFL so even for the greatest guys winning just one ring is a big deal.

So I won't get into the Elway comparisons.

Certainly, in the NBA, there are guys whose reputations are elevated significantly by winning one ring, notably Dirk, but that's rare.


I disagree with them but people make such a huge deal out of how often quarterbacks win in the NFL. Itís a huge reason why Montana and Brady get ranked so high. I think a ring would have changed the way a lot of people viewed Dan Marino. Iíve seen many people describe him as a quarterback that couldnít win the big games. Tarkenton is another one because he lost 3 Super Bowls.


Last edited by Steve007 on Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:46 am    Post subject:

^ Fran Tarkenton ? Probably Coach Bud Grant's conservative play is assigned more cause of those three losses than was the quality of Tarkenton's play.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject:

VegasLakerFan wrote:
activeverb wrote:
VegasLakerFan wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
activeverb wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
A ring won't change his legacy IMO because he's now just a role player and not the guy.

Plus, HOU isn't winning a ring any time soon.


I don't think a single ring changes the perception of a player as much as some fans think.


I think it depends. If the player beats all odds as the #1 guy, I think it can. Example of that is Dirk.

But if you're older and no longer the guy, or, play on a team that was a favorite to win anyway, I think yeah, it doesn't change it THAT much.


Switching teams is what'll screw up Paul's legacy more than anything.

If he'd been able to stick it out in New Orleans and find a way to sneak a title like Dirk did I think he'd be an absolute legend.

Even if they didn't win a 'chip I think a 20 year career there (or however long he plays) would've helped him. As it stands I don't think he'll be remembered. More people will remember Steve Nash.


I don't think too many people care if players switch teams.


Yeah I doubt anyone really cares that he switched teams. I think it'll affect his legacy, though. He's not good enough to be a transcendent one-word player (Kobe, Michael, Magic, Bird, LeBron, etc.) and now he most likely won't be identified with a team or city, either.


I think people get too worked about this legacy thing. Very few people are remembered; its only a question of how quickly they're forgotten. Heck a couple of hundred years from now, people may no longer play basketball and guys like Wilt, Kobe, Jordan and Lebron will be names only known to historians, much like ancient Greek Olympians.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:29 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
I think people get too worked about this legacy thing. Very few people are remembered; its only a question of how quickly they're forgotten. Heck a couple of hundred years from now, people may no longer play basketball and guys like Wilt, Kobe, Jordan and Lebron will be names only known to historians, much like ancient Greek Olympians.


I more or less agree with that. Chris Paul will be a Hall of Famer. His numbers will pop up in the record books, though of course other players will surpass him from time to time. If he retired today, he would be 3rd in career APG, 6th in SPG, a nine-time all-star, a RotY, a nine-time all-defense team member, and an eight-time all-NBA team member. That's the legacy that will stick with people.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:51 pm    Post subject:

Wilkes52 wrote:
^ Fran Tarkenton ? Probably Coach Bud Grant's conservative play is assigned more cause of those three losses than was the quality of Tarkenton's play.


Not sure I agree when Tarkenton threw 1 td pass and 6 intís in those games and was 0-3. Imagine how it affects his legacy if he was 3-0 and his stats looked great. I thought his biggest problem in those games was he faced some really terrific teams.

Iíve had/seen a lot of these discussions. Seems like A LOT of people donít care about the reasons a guy lost. They just say he didnít win and will point out others who did.

And yeah I meant Tarkenton.


Last edited by Steve007 on Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:53 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
VegasLakerFan wrote:
activeverb wrote:
VegasLakerFan wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
activeverb wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
A ring won't change his legacy IMO because he's now just a role player and not the guy.

Plus, HOU isn't winning a ring any time soon.


I don't think a single ring changes the perception of a player as much as some fans think.


I think it depends. If the player beats all odds as the #1 guy, I think it can. Example of that is Dirk.

But if you're older and no longer the guy, or, play on a team that was a favorite to win anyway, I think yeah, it doesn't change it THAT much.


Switching teams is what'll screw up Paul's legacy more than anything.

If he'd been able to stick it out in New Orleans and find a way to sneak a title like Dirk did I think he'd be an absolute legend.

Even if they didn't win a 'chip I think a 20 year career there (or however long he plays) would've helped him. As it stands I don't think he'll be remembered. More people will remember Steve Nash.


I don't think too many people care if players switch teams.


Yeah I doubt anyone really cares that he switched teams. I think it'll affect his legacy, though. He's not good enough to be a transcendent one-word player (Kobe, Michael, Magic, Bird, LeBron, etc.) and now he most likely won't be identified with a team or city, either.


I think people get too worked about this legacy thing.


I agree, but this thread is literally titled "What is Chris Paul's legacy?"

I'm not saying Chris Paul will be entirely forgotten, just largely so except amongst a niche group of fans.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:03 pm    Post subject:

When people talk about legacy they think about how a player will be remembered during their lifetimes. The thought of how MJ, Magic, etc. will be remembered after I die never occurred to me before.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:10 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
slavavov wrote:
On one hand, some say Paul is a strong, vocal leader. On the other hand, some say he is overrated at a leader and that he thinks he's better than he really is in terms of influencing his teammates.

I think he could've and should've won a title if he had a good enough team around him. In some ways he's been unlucky. If that trade to the Lakers were allowed, he would've played with Kobe and maybe or probably wins a ring. Players of that caliber are seen in a while different light once they win a ring.


He had an DPOY in DeAndre, COY in Doc Rivers, arguably best PF (after Duncan, KG and Dirk got old), top 3 pt shooter in Reddick and 6th MOY in Jamal Crawford


Doc Rivers won COY with a team that didnít even have a winning record and missed the playoffs. I thought Phil Jackson was robbed that year. Even Del Harris won COY so I wouldnít rate a coach high simply because he won that award. I think people are probably more impressed with how he did in Boston.

Weíll see how Blake does on his own but right now a 5-11 record by the Clippers is making him look bad IMO. Blake usually didnít look that great in the playoffs.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:03 pm    Post subject:

VegasLakerFan wrote:


I agree, but this thread is literally titled "What is Chris Paul's legacy?"

I'm not saying Chris Paul will be entirely forgotten, just largely so except amongst a niche group of fans.



Sure, that's true of virtually everyone. Twenty years from now, Paul will probably be as familiar to fans as Nate Archibald and Walt Frazier are today.

Like I said, 100 years from now the NBA may no longer exist and names like Wilt, Kobe and Lebron may be meaningless.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:23 pm    Post subject:

Steve007 wrote:
governator wrote:
slavavov wrote:
On one hand, some say Paul is a strong, vocal leader. On the other hand, some say he is overrated at a leader and that he thinks he's better than he really is in terms of influencing his teammates.

I think he could've and should've won a title if he had a good enough team around him. In some ways he's been unlucky. If that trade to the Lakers were allowed, he would've played with Kobe and maybe or probably wins a ring. Players of that caliber are seen in a while different light once they win a ring.


He had an DPOY in DeAndre, COY in Doc Rivers, arguably best PF (after Duncan, KG and Dirk got old), top 3 pt shooter in Reddick and 6th MOY in Jamal Crawford


Doc Rivers won COY with a team that didnít even have a winning record and missed the playoffs. I thought Phil Jackson was robbed that year. Even Del Harris won COY so I wouldnít rate a coach high simply because he won that award. I think people are probably more impressed with how he did in Boston.

Weíll see how Blake does on his own but right now a 5-11 record by the Clippers is making him look bad IMO. Blake usually didnít look that great in the playoffs.


Chris Paul gets unfairly judged for never making it out of the second round, IMO. The second best player on that Hornets team was David West and his coach was Byron Scott, yet he still took them to 56 wins and the #2 seed in 2007-2008. That team was a legitimate contender.

Similarly, I consider Blake Griffin an empty stats player-- the second coming of Amar'e Stoudemire, almost.

He never had a legitimate sidekick and he himself has always been clutch in the playoffs.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
VegasLakerFan wrote:


I agree, but this thread is literally titled "What is Chris Paul's legacy?"

I'm not saying Chris Paul will be entirely forgotten, just largely so except amongst a niche group of fans.



Sure, that's true of virtually everyone. Twenty years from now, Paul will probably be as familiar to fans as Nate Archibald and Walt Frazier are today.


Precisely.


I don't think that'll be the case with the one-name crew.

Quote:

Like I said, 100 years from now the NBA may no longer exist and names like Wilt, Kobe and Lebron may be meaningless.


Most likely the only way NBA history would be wiped out 100 years from now would be in the case of a societal collapse.

We're able to catalogue information about MLB players from 100 years ago, and we didn't have jack for technology back then, relatively speaking. Nowadays if LeBron cuts a loud fart computers everywhere have an article about it stored in a browser cache.

Actually come to think of it, another scenario in which NBA history could be lost is in an avalanche of meaningless data combined with increasingly short attention spans.

Man, did not mean to go down this rabbit hole.

PS: Chris Paul sucks.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:54 pm    Post subject:

VegasLakerFan wrote:
activeverb wrote:
VegasLakerFan wrote:


I agree, but this thread is literally titled "What is Chris Paul's legacy?"

I'm not saying Chris Paul will be entirely forgotten, just largely so except amongst a niche group of fans.



Sure, that's true of virtually everyone. Twenty years from now, Paul will probably be as familiar to fans as Nate Archibald and Walt Frazier are today.


Precisely.


I don't think that'll be the case with the one-name crew.

Quote:

Like I said, 100 years from now the NBA may no longer exist and names like Wilt, Kobe and Lebron may be meaningless.


Most likely the only way NBA history would be wiped out 100 years from now would be in the case of a societal collapse.

We're able to catalogue information about MLB players from 100 years ago, and we didn't have jack for technology back then, relatively speaking. Nowadays if LeBron cuts a loud fart computers everywhere have an article about it stored in a browser cache.

Actually come to think of it, another scenario in which NBA history could be lost is in an avalanche of meaningless data combined with increasingly short attention spans.

Man, did not mean to go down this rabbit hole.

PS: Chris Paul sucks.


It's hard to predict the future. At one point, people thought silent movies where the greatest advancement in entertainment and would go on forever. They collapsed probably a decade after that.

With the NBA, who knows? Maybe Virtual Technology will reach a point that people can place themselves inside a game, as if they are playing, and they'll have no need to watch others. Will that happen? Who knows? More likely, if the NBA ever disappears it will be for reason we can't imagine today. But a hundred years is a long long long time,


Last edited by activeverb on Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:04 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
A ring won't change his legacy IMO because he's now just a role player and not the guy.

Plus, HOU isn't winning a ring any time soon.


I don't think a single ring changes the perception of a player as much as some fans think.


It made a huge difference for Dirk.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:22 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
activeverb wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
A ring won't change his legacy IMO because he's now just a role player and not the guy.

Plus, HOU isn't winning a ring any time soon.


I don't think a single ring changes the perception of a player as much as some fans think.


It made a huge difference for Dirk.


You're a little late to the party. Somewhere in this thread I made a post about Dirk pretty much being the only guy whose perception was changed by a single ring.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:28 pm    Post subject:

Pulling for CP3 and MDA. The hate for CP3 around here is ridiculous. You'd take him in a heartbeat, even now. I mean all we did was whine and cry when Stern vetoed the trade, but since we didn't get him... we then raised the bar for what he was supposed to acheive with the Clippers, and it seems all those post season injuries aren't an excuse either for Laker fans. LOL! Don't know about perception changing, but he deserves another shot and hopefully the Rockets will be healthy. MDA's perception, now that could change drastically. I already knew he was a good coach when he was with us and all that defense talk was hogwash. The man came pretty damn close when he had his horses in Phoenix and who knows what would have happened if Amare didn't get suspended.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:16 pm    Post subject:

MDA failed in Denver, LA, and NY so I am surprised at his success in Houston. But his resume looks a lot better now that he has succeeded with 2 teams. He was right that the situation in LA was a bad one for him, and the same is true for his stint with the Knicks.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:19 pm    Post subject:

Who's better: Chris Paul or Christi Paul?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:57 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
activeverb wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
A ring won't change his legacy IMO because he's now just a role player and not the guy.

Plus, HOU isn't winning a ring any time soon.


I don't think a single ring changes the perception of a player as much as some fans think.


It made a huge difference for Dirk.


If Chris wins a ring this year he cements his legacy. Not unlikely that happens either with the Warriors mentally fatigued and with Harden playing like the GOAT.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:47 am    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
activeverb wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
A ring won't change his legacy IMO because he's now just a role player and not the guy.

Plus, HOU isn't winning a ring any time soon.


I don't think a single ring changes the perception of a player as much as some fans think.


It made a huge difference for Dirk.


I think that is more the exception than the rule though. If CP3 wins, he did it as the second banana. That wonít change your legacy esp if you had long been considered a #1.

Dirk won it on his own essentially, which few stars have done.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:15 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
activeverb wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
A ring won't change his legacy IMO because he's now just a role player and not the guy.

Plus, HOU isn't winning a ring any time soon.


I don't think a single ring changes the perception of a player as much as some fans think.


It made a huge difference for Dirk.


I think that is more the exception than the rule though. If CP3 wins, he did it as the second banana. That wonít change your legacy esp if you had long been considered a #1.

Dirk won it on his own essentially, which few stars have done.


If he wins in Houston he will be doing it as a star, not a role player. It would be a big deal for his legacy. Right now he is a guy that not only never won, but also never played in a conference finals. Huge difference between that and being a star who won.

And if he does win, it will look like Houston couldnít do it without him because they didnít come close to winning a year ago.

Kobe only won 2 of his 5 rings as the #1 guy but he wasnít just a role player when he won the first 3 times.
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