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parsons777
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 Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:09 am Post subject: OFFICIAL THE YOUNG CORE STATS Added Year-over-year and Winning/Losing teams splits |
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Don't shoot the messenger...Added stats for Year over Year change ( Ingram and Randle ) and how they play versus winning/losing teams ( all but Hart ) :
Ages as of opening night 2018-19 :
Ingram ( Age 21-1 )
Lonzo ( Age 20-11 )
Randle (Age 23-10)
Kuzma ( Age 23-2 )
Hart ( Age 23-7 )
INGRAM SF, Starter
16-17: 9.4 Pts (40.2 FG% / 29.4 3FG% / 62.1 FT% ), 4.0 Reb, 2.1 Ast, 0.5 Blk, 0.6 Stl, 1.5 TO Min 28.8
17-18: 16.2 Pts (46.9 FG% / 38.0 3FG% / 68.9 FT% ), 5.4 Reb, 3.9 Ast, 0.8 Blk, 0.8 Stl, 2.5 TO Min 33.8
Ranks All SFs, Season 17-18: Pts 9th, FG% 10th, 3FG% 17th, Reb 12th, Ast 6th, Blk 9th, Stl 33rd
Versus Losing/Winning Teams, 17-18:
Losers 16.5 Pts ( 50.2 FG% / 50.0 3FG% ), 6.0 Reb, 4.3 Ast, 1.0 Blk, 0.6 Stl, 2.7 TO Min 33.5
Winners 16.0 Pts ( 44.6 FG% / 30.0 3FG% ), 4.9 Reb, 3.5 Ast, 0.6 Blk, 0.9 Stl, 2.3 TO Min 34.0
LONZO PG, Starter
17-18: 10.1 Pts (35.2 FG% / 30.2 3FG% / 44.9 FT% ) Pts, 7.0 Reb, 7.2 Ast, 0.9 Blk, 1.7 Stl, 2.7 TO Min 34.3
Ranks All PGs, Season: Pts 30th, FG%/3FG% Low, Reb 3rd, Ast 6th, Blk 1st, Stl 6th
Versus Losing/Winning Teams, 17-18:
Losers 11.1 Pts ( 37.3 FG% / 32.4 3FG% ), 7.3 Reb, 6.9 Ast, 0.5 Blk, 1.6 Stl, 1.9 TO Min 32.7
Winners 9.6 Pts ( 43.8 FG% / 29.0 3FG% ), 6.8 Reb, 7.4 Ast, 1.1 Blk, 1.8 Stl, 3.1 TO Min 35.2
RANDLE PF, Bench/Starter
16-17: 13.2 Pts (48.7 FG% / 27.0 3FG% / 72.3 FT% ), 8.6 Reb, 3.6 Ast, 0.5 Blk, 0.7 Stl, 2.3 TO Min 28.8
17-18: 16.1 Pts (56.4 FG% / 21.4 3FG% / 70.1 FT% ), 7.9 Reb, 2.5 Ast, 0.6 Blk, 0.5 Stl, 2.5 TO - Min 26.5
17-18 Starter: 19.1 Pts (55.2 FG% / 13.3 3FG% / 73.3 FT% ), 9.3 Reb, 3.1 Ast, 0.5 Blk, 0.6 Stl, 2.8 TO - Min 30.4
Ranks All PFs, Season as Starter: Pts 6th, FG% 4th, 3FG% Low, Reb 5th, Ast 8th, Blk 22nd, Stl 32nd
Versus Losing/Winning Teams, 17-18:
Losers 15.4 Pts ( 57.0 FG% / 18.8 3FG% ), 8.7 Reb, 3.0 Ast, 0.5 Blk, 0.5 Stl, 3.0 TO Min 26.3
Winners 16.5 Pts ( 56.1 FG% / 23.1 3FG% ), 7.5 Reb, 2.2 Ast, 0.6 Blk, 0.6 Stl, 2.2 TO Min 26.7
KUZMA PF, Starter/Bench
17-18: 15.8 Pts (44.9 FG% / 37.1 3FG% / 72.0 FT% ), 6.2 Reb, 1.8 Ast, 0.5 Blk, 0.6 Stl, 1.7 TO Min 30.6
Ranks All PFs, Season: Pts 7th, FG% 18th, 3FG% 16th, Reb 19th, Ast 16th, Blk 30th, Stl 23rd
Versus Losing/Winning Teams, 17-18:
Losers 14.6 Pts ( 43.9 FG% / 34.5 3FG% ), 6.6 Reb, 1.9 Ast, 0.4 Blk, 0.7 Stl, 3.0 TO Min 30.0
Winners 16.6 Pts ( 45.5 FG% / 38.6 3FG% ), 6.0 Reb, 1.8 Ast, 0.5 Blk, 0.6 Stl, 2.2 TO Min 31.0
Top6 20.0 Pts ( 48.8 FG% / 43.4 3FG% ), 7.4 Reb, 1.8 Ast, 0.6 Blk, 0.6 Stl, 0.4 TO Min 34.3
HART SG, Bench/Starter
Season: 6.6 Pts (46.1 FG% / 39.9 3FG% / 65.6 FT% ) , 3.7 Reb, 1.2 Ast, 0.2 Blk, 0.7 Stl, 0.6 TO Min 21.5
Major takeaways so far:
Ingram looks like about the 10th best SF in the league right now and is feasting on bad teams.
Lonzo has consistently ranked in the top 5 among PGs in Ast, Reb, Blk
Since becoming a starter, JR's scoring has jumped from 14 to 20 ppg and his FG% is among the top PFs in the league. His Reb and Ast numbers has him top 5 among PFs.
Kuzma plays better against winning teams and kills the Top 6 teams in the league ( Boston, Cleveland, Golden State, Houston, Portland, Washington ). Might bode well for us once we are back in the playoffs.
Areas for improvement?
Ingram, play better against winning teams.
Lonzo, shoot better.
Randle, raise the FT%.
Kuzma, just play against winning teams.
The future seems very bright.
Last edited by parsons777 on Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:40 pm; edited 36 times in total |
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defense
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| Lol where are Randle, Hart, Clarkson, Nance and Zubac |
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parsons777
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| defense wrote: | | Lol where are Randle, Hart, Clarkson, Nance and Zubac |
Randle is 22.9, so he is young, but he is in his 3rd (after red shirting) season, and is not "core" because I think we are going to trade instead of commit to him.
Clarkson is 25.5, so not "young" and possibly not "core" depending on 2 max strategy.
Nance is 24.8
The others? Stats?
But if you want to add anyone else's stats to this thread go ahead. I plan to update these 3 so far. |
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LakersNewEra
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Lonzo is not a part of the core. Hes yet to prove hes NBA level.
Kuzma and Ingram are 2 guys we keep going forward, two guys we build around and 2 guys that do have all star potential.
Clarkson can be kept as instant offense off the bench, Nance is a good role player.
Everyone else probably gone. |
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parsons777
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| LakersNewEra wrote: | Lonzo is not a part of the core. Hes yet to prove hes NBA level.
Kuzma and Ingram are 2 guys we keep going forward, two guys we build around and 2 guys that do have all star potential.
Clarkson can be kept as instant offense off the bench, Nance is a good role player.
Everyone else probably gone. |
We'll see about Lonzo. Those Ast, Reb, Blk, etc numbers are excellent, but you do need to be able to throw it in the ocean to succeed. So, I take your point. For now, I think I will keep updating Zo too. |
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Luminous8
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Lonzo has been anointed the face of the franchise. Regardless of his play so far, he's guaranteed core. That's Magics first pick. No way he doesn't last. |
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Ziggy
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| defense wrote: | | Lol where are Randle, Hart, Clarkson, Nance and Zubac |
The trade block.
OP: I appreciate the work you put into this. |
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SocalDevin
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Appreciate the thread as well.. Looking forward to the updates. |
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BynumForThree
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Under what metrics is Lonzo a top 15 point guard? You can't tell me rebounding and 3 point shooting carry equal value from a point guard.
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unleasHell
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Great post Parsons, love the numbers...!
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Laker7
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| defense wrote: | | Lol where are Randle, Hart, Clarkson, Nance and Zubac |
I am starting to get worried about Zubac. He hardly played last year until the very end and has not played at all (other than garbage time) this year. Has not spent much time in the G League this year either. I am starting to wonder if the coaching staff has given up on him.
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parsons777
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| BynumForThree wrote: | | Under what metrics is Lonzo a top 15 point guard? You can't tell me rebounding and 3 point shooting carry equal value from a point guard. |
Well, for me, Assists are the most important thing. I totally understand if people prefer to focus on scoring from the PG position. But I am going to emphasize Ast and Ast to TO ratio. In Ast, Lonzo is 7th in the league, not among rookies, among all point guards in the NBA. He has a 2.53 to 1 Ast to TO ratio, which is better than 4 of the PGs above him in Ast per game. Only Wall 2.89 and Lowry 3.18 are better at generating assists while not turning over the rock. Also, I think Reb and Blks matter a lot in a PG. Example, Portland has a small backcourt: Lillard and McCollum. While they are great scorers ( and beat us ), they have trouble dealing with bigger PGs and SGs, which creates I think a ceiling for them in the playoffs. A ceiling Lonzo will not experience long term. Now, if Zo cannot improve his shooting this will become more and more problematic, but in terms of focusing today on a core PG skill, generating opportunities for others, the numbers make him at least an average PG across the 30 starting PGs in the league, for me.
Last edited by parsons777 on Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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Lonzo may be an aggregate stats top 15 but in no universe is he actually a top 15 PG right now.
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parsons777
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Lonzo may be an aggregate stats top 15 but in no universe is he actually a top 15 PG right now. |
I appreciate the dialogue. Would you identify all the PGs you would prefer today over Lonzo? Maybe I can convince you that not more than 14 of them are actually better today. Maybe I can't.
I'll grant the following are clearly better, now:
Harden ( although is he really a PG? ), Russ, Wall, Simmons ( PG? ), Curry, Kemba, Teague, Kyrie ( not based on current stats, but on playoff success ). That's 8. The rest I will probably argue a bit. Note, I am going to argue that Lonzo is handicapped by a team that does not shoot as well as many of his colleagues. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| parsons777 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Lonzo may be an aggregate stats top 15 but in no universe is he actually a top 15 PG right now. |
I appreciate the dialogue. Would you identify all the PGs you would prefer today over Lonzo? Maybe I can convince you that not more than 14 of them are actually better today. Maybe I can't.
I'll grant the following are clearly better, now:
Harden ( although is he really a PG? ), Russ, Wall, Simmons ( PG? ), Curry, Kemba, Teague, Kyrie ( not based on current stats, but on playoff success ). That's 8. The rest I will probably argue a bit. Note, I am going to argue that Lonzo is handicapped by a team that does not shoot as well as many of his colleagues. |
Sorry tied up but there are many more experienced PGs who aren’t an offensive liability. I still believe in him long term but this year he will be a below average PG until he’s a threat to score on offense.
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Luminous8
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Lonzo has by many accounts been detrimental to the team offensively AND defensively over half the games. He's got to get it together. He's missing easy layups, getting torched by Tyler ulis and having one big game surrounded by 4-5 awful games that make rookie Ingram look good. He's going to be a terrific player, but it's just not there yet. |
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BadGuy
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks for putting this together! I've been most impressed by Kuzma so far. His offensive game is very polished, and he has a variety of moves and counters to keep the defense off balance. The only alarming thing about Lonzo to me is the FT shooting. Also, I think a rebounding guard is a huge asset (e.g., Westbrook); when the PG can grab the rebound and start running or pass, the defense is immediately on their heels. |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| parsons777 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Lonzo may be an aggregate stats top 15 but in no universe is he actually a top 15 PG right now. |
I appreciate the dialogue. Would you identify all the PGs you would prefer today over Lonzo? Maybe I can convince you that not more than 14 of them are actually better today. Maybe I can't.
I'll grant the following are clearly better, now:
Harden ( although is he really a PG? ), Russ, Wall, Simmons ( PG? ), Curry, Kemba, Teague, Kyrie ( not based on current stats, but on playoff success ). That's 8. The rest I will probably argue a bit. Note, I am going to argue that Lonzo is handicapped by a team that does not shoot as well as many of his colleagues. |
his team is handicapped by the fact that he shoots more poorly than any of his "colleagues" in the league.....not trying to pile on the kid....right now....as of today, he is not a top 15, top 20 or even a top 25 PG in the NBA....right now, he is not the best PG on the Lakers roster |
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BynumForThree
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| parsons777 wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | Under what metrics is Lonzo a top 15 point guard? You can't tell me rebounding and 3 point shooting carry equal value from a point guard. |
Well, for me, Assists are the most important thing. I totally understand if people prefer to focus on scoring from the PG position. But I am going to emphasize Ast and Ast to TO ratio. In Ast, Lonzo is 7th in the league, not among rookies, among all point guards in the NBA. He has a 2.53 to 1 Ast to TO ratio, which is better than 4 of the PGs above him in Ast per game. Only Wall 2.89 and Lowry 3.18 are better at generating assists while not turning over the rock. Also, I think Reb and Blks matter a lot in a PG. Example, Portland has a small backcourt: Lillard and McCollum. While they are great scorers ( and beat us ), they have trouble dealing with bigger PGs and SGs, which creates I think a ceiling for them in the playoffs. A ceiling Lonzo will not experience long term. Now, if Zo cannot improve his shooting this will become more and more problematic, but in terms of focusing today on a core PG skill, generating opportunities for others, the numbers make him at least an average PG across the 30 starting PGs in the league, for me. |
So it's completely arbitrary. No one expects Lonzo to score 20 PPG but an efficient 15 PPG isn't too much to ask. You're telling me you'd rather have a good rebounding guard than an efficient guard like Nash? Assists and a shot are THE most important aspects for a point guard in today's NBA unless you're an athletic freak like Simmons or a consistent penetrator like young Rondo. Lonzo has neither.
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parsons777
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| BynumForThree wrote: | | parsons777 wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | Under what metrics is Lonzo a top 15 point guard? You can't tell me rebounding and 3 point shooting carry equal value from a point guard. |
Well, for me, Assists are the most important thing. I totally understand if people prefer to focus on scoring from the PG position. But I am going to emphasize Ast and Ast to TO ratio. In Ast, Lonzo is 7th in the league, not among rookies, among all point guards in the NBA. He has a 2.53 to 1 Ast to TO ratio, which is better than 4 of the PGs above him in Ast per game. Only Wall 2.89 and Lowry 3.18 are better at generating assists while not turning over the rock. Also, I think Reb and Blks matter a lot in a PG. Example, Portland has a small backcourt: Lillard and McCollum. While they are great scorers ( and beat us ), they have trouble dealing with bigger PGs and SGs, which creates I think a ceiling for them in the playoffs. A ceiling Lonzo will not experience long term. Now, if Zo cannot improve his shooting this will become more and more problematic, but in terms of focusing today on a core PG skill, generating opportunities for others, the numbers make him at least an average PG across the 30 starting PGs in the league, for me. |
So it's completely arbitrary. No one expects Lonzo to score 20 PPG but an efficient 15 PPG isn't too much to ask. You're telling me you'd rather have a good rebounding guard than an efficient guard like Nash? Assists and a shot are THE most important aspects for a point guard in today's NBA unless you're an athletic freak like Simmons or a consistent penetrator like young Rondo. Lonzo has neither. |
"...but an efficient 15 PPG isn't too much to ask...."
You can ask whatever you want.  His Ast per game is not an arbitrary stat. He really is 7th in the league in that cat. For the moment, I think I will leave it at that. |
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bum2
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| parsons777 wrote: |
You can ask whatever you want. His Ast per game is not an arbitrary stat. He really is 7th in the league in that cat. For the moment, I think I will leave it at that. |
In a way, it is because not all assists are made the same.
Lakers are bottom 3rd in offensive efficiency. The players who have the ball most of the time on this team aren't exactly making our offense potent.
Example, Jerian Grant is averaging 5.9 assists on the Bulls. Nobody thinks he is much of anything.
Last edited by bum2 on Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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hellsling
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| It is arbitrary because while it's a nice number to look at it hasn't contributed to production on the court. The Lakers are the worse shooting team and ranked 28th out of 30th for offense rating. We are so lucky to have Kuzma bailing out our offense. We still have to continue playing Lonzo for the next three years and hope that he learns how to score and shoot. |
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BynumForThree
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| parsons777 wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | parsons777 wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | Under what metrics is Lonzo a top 15 point guard? You can't tell me rebounding and 3 point shooting carry equal value from a point guard. |
Well, for me, Assists are the most important thing. I totally understand if people prefer to focus on scoring from the PG position. But I am going to emphasize Ast and Ast to TO ratio. In Ast, Lonzo is 7th in the league, not among rookies, among all point guards in the NBA. He has a 2.53 to 1 Ast to TO ratio, which is better than 4 of the PGs above him in Ast per game. Only Wall 2.89 and Lowry 3.18 are better at generating assists while not turning over the rock. Also, I think Reb and Blks matter a lot in a PG. Example, Portland has a small backcourt: Lillard and McCollum. While they are great scorers ( and beat us ), they have trouble dealing with bigger PGs and SGs, which creates I think a ceiling for them in the playoffs. A ceiling Lonzo will not experience long term. Now, if Zo cannot improve his shooting this will become more and more problematic, but in terms of focusing today on a core PG skill, generating opportunities for others, the numbers make him at least an average PG across the 30 starting PGs in the league, for me. |
So it's completely arbitrary. No one expects Lonzo to score 20 PPG but an efficient 15 PPG isn't too much to ask. You're telling me you'd rather have a good rebounding guard than an efficient guard like Nash? Assists and a shot are THE most important aspects for a point guard in today's NBA unless you're an athletic freak like Simmons or a consistent penetrator like young Rondo. Lonzo has neither. |
"...but an efficient 15 PPG isn't too much to ask...."
You can ask whatever you want. His Ast per game is not an arbitrary stat. He really is 7th in the league in that cat. For the moment, I think I will leave it at that. |
Sure, he's also one of the worst shooters in NBA history. Not among rookies, but in general.
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parsons777
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| BynumForThree wrote: | | parsons777 wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | parsons777 wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | Under what metrics is Lonzo a top 15 point guard? You can't tell me rebounding and 3 point shooting carry equal value from a point guard. |
Well, for me, Assists are the most important thing. I totally understand if people prefer to focus on scoring from the PG position. But I am going to emphasize Ast and Ast to TO ratio. In Ast, Lonzo is 7th in the league, not among rookies, among all point guards in the NBA. He has a 2.53 to 1 Ast to TO ratio, which is better than 4 of the PGs above him in Ast per game. Only Wall 2.89 and Lowry 3.18 are better at generating assists while not turning over the rock. Also, I think Reb and Blks matter a lot in a PG. Example, Portland has a small backcourt: Lillard and McCollum. While they are great scorers ( and beat us ), they have trouble dealing with bigger PGs and SGs, which creates I think a ceiling for them in the playoffs. A ceiling Lonzo will not experience long term. Now, if Zo cannot improve his shooting this will become more and more problematic, but in terms of focusing today on a core PG skill, generating opportunities for others, the numbers make him at least an average PG across the 30 starting PGs in the league, for me. |
So it's completely arbitrary. No one expects Lonzo to score 20 PPG but an efficient 15 PPG isn't too much to ask. You're telling me you'd rather have a good rebounding guard than an efficient guard like Nash? Assists and a shot are THE most important aspects for a point guard in today's NBA unless you're an athletic freak like Simmons or a consistent penetrator like young Rondo. Lonzo has neither. |
"...but an efficient 15 PPG isn't too much to ask...."
You can ask whatever you want. His Ast per game is not an arbitrary stat. He really is 7th in the league in that cat. For the moment, I think I will leave it at that. |
Sure, he's also one of the worst shooters in NBA history. Not among rookies, but in general. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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15ppg from a 20YO playmaking PG that isn't physically ready for the NBA, is too much to ask.
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