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Assuming the 2 max plan comes to fruition and you could only keep one, which do you keep? |
JC (combo guard off the bench) |
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26% |
[ 33 ] |
Jules (combo PF/C) |
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73% |
[ 91 ] |
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Total Votes : 124 |
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Joe Pesci Star Player
Joined: 15 Oct 2017 Posts: 3885
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | Joe Pesci wrote: | Randle quite easily. He does more than just score and is the more rare/unique/hard-to-find player.
I wish Clarkson well bonin’ chicks in Cleveland next year. |
When would Randle play on a team featuring 3 of Cousins/LBJ/PG13/Kuzma? Not a whole lot of playing time there for a player you have to pay. That role would be better served via a journeyman or rookie.
And with little to no cap space remaining you have no SG, no backup SG, no viable backup point.
You have to keep Clarkson in that scenario as JR offers little on court value with those behemoths on the roster.
Consider this. Randle averages 27.7 MPG with a frontcourt of Lopez/Kuzma and probably less than that once Nance returns. That will diminish significantly if you have 2 of LBJ/Cousins/PG. |
If Cousins is the guy you sign, then you’re right, Randle becomes obsolete.
But if it’s just James and George, there’s still a role for him, a rather large one actually.
And I have George playing SG, James as the backup PG, and Hart as the backup SG (with a guy like Matt Thomas waiting in the wings if Hart isn’t ready), so, although Clarkson is pretty vital to th team his year, his importance, to me, is greatly overstated next year on a team with James and George. |
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adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Push poll much?
Quote: | JC (combo guard off the bench)
or
Jules (combo PF/C) |
Did Randle start a game this season? JC has actually started more games as a Laker than Randle.
I like both guys, but I would go with JC....his abilities and skills are simply more needed on a winning team. Everything Randle provides is not really unique to any other PF on the bench and could be absorbed by moderate skilled players. So who you going to sign next year that can do what JC is doing this season? |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Luminous8 wrote: | activeverb wrote: | Clarkson is a generic off-the-bench gunner. Lots of guys like him in the league. Randle has more upside. |
Disagree JC is a run of the mill off the bench Gunner. He's been very poised and under control for the most part this year. IMO he's opened up a part of his game I wasn't sure he could do. The guy is playing like a vet ready to win. 25/4/5 per36 |
Agreed, he's playing the best ball of his career and is easily outplaying his contract so far this season. On a team run by Ball, he's a really valuable change of pace as a sixth man.
But the trade-off of having All-Star starters like Cousins and PG13 (in this scenario) would make JC's valuable contributions far less necessary. And over the course of Cousins/George's contracts, they should be able to add at least one guard with the MLE and draft who can approximate some of JC's contributions all while Ball improves as a scorer. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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Joe Pesci wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | Joe Pesci wrote: | Randle quite easily. He does more than just score and is the more rare/unique/hard-to-find player.
I wish Clarkson well bonin’ chicks in Cleveland next year. |
When would Randle play on a team featuring 3 of Cousins/LBJ/PG13/Kuzma? Not a whole lot of playing time there for a player you have to pay. That role would be better served via a journeyman or rookie.
And with little to no cap space remaining you have no SG, no backup SG, no viable backup point.
You have to keep Clarkson in that scenario as JR offers little on court value with those behemoths on the roster.
Consider this. Randle averages 27.7 MPG with a frontcourt of Lopez/Kuzma and probably less than that once Nance returns. That will diminish significantly if you have 2 of LBJ/Cousins/PG. |
If Cousins is the guy you sign, then you’re right, Randle becomes obsolete.
But if it’s just James and George, there’s still a role for him, a rather large one actually.
And I have George playing SG, James as the backup PG, and Hart as the backup SG (with a guy like Matt Thomas waiting in the wings if Hart isn’t ready), so, although Clarkson is pretty vital to th team his year, his importance, to me, is greatly overstated next year on a team with James and George. |
I'm not sure PG13 would make much sense at the 2. He's really more a 4. A Kuzma type player.
If we sign LBJ and PG13, I think that would be a mistake. We have ingram and kuz rostered still.
I think the most sense would be DMC and Avery Bradley. Then we solve two needs, the 5 and 2, and have 1, 3, and 4 covered already.
Ball / FA or Ennis
Avery / JC / Hart
Ingram
Kuz / Nance
DMC / Zu
In that case, I guess you could make a case for either JC or Randle.
That's an elite defensive backcourt, length at 3 and 4. And muscle at 5. |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | Joe Pesci wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | Joe Pesci wrote: | Randle quite easily. He does more than just score and is the more rare/unique/hard-to-find player.
I wish Clarkson well bonin’ chicks in Cleveland next year. |
When would Randle play on a team featuring 3 of Cousins/LBJ/PG13/Kuzma? Not a whole lot of playing time there for a player you have to pay. That role would be better served via a journeyman or rookie.
And with little to no cap space remaining you have no SG, no backup SG, no viable backup point.
You have to keep Clarkson in that scenario as JR offers little on court value with those behemoths on the roster.
Consider this. Randle averages 27.7 MPG with a frontcourt of Lopez/Kuzma and probably less than that once Nance returns. That will diminish significantly if you have 2 of LBJ/Cousins/PG. |
If Cousins is the guy you sign, then you’re right, Randle becomes obsolete.
But if it’s just James and George, there’s still a role for him, a rather large one actually.
And I have George playing SG, James as the backup PG, and Hart as the backup SG (with a guy like Matt Thomas waiting in the wings if Hart isn’t ready), so, although Clarkson is pretty vital to th team his year, his importance, to me, is greatly overstated next year on a team with James and George. |
I'm not sure PG13 would make much sense at the 2. He's really more a 4. A Kuzma type player.
If we sign LBJ and PG13, I think that would be a mistake. We have ingram and kuz rostered still.
I think the most sense would be DMC and Avery Bradley. Then we solve two needs, the 5 and 2, and have 1, 3, and 4 covered already.
Ball / FA or Ennis
Avery / JC / Hart
Ingram
Kuz / Nance
DMC / Zu
In that case, I guess you could make a case for either JC or Randle.
That's an elite defensive backcourt, length at 3 and 4. And muscle at 5. |
Does Boogie come here without a PG13/LBJ joining him? |
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adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | I'm not sure PG13 would make much sense at the 2 |
he was solid at the #2 early in his career for significant minutes, but I also have my doubts he can still be highly effective at the #2. He is still good at the #3, but I agree he is on track to probably be mostly a #4 within a couple years. |
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LakerSanity Moderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 33474 Location: Long Beach, California
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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activeverb wrote: | Clarkson is a generic off-the-bench gunner. Lots of guys like him in the league. Randle has more upside. |
There are only two players in the league who currently play 25 or fewer minutes per game and score 15 or more points per game - Brook Lopez and Jordan Clarkson.
By the way, there are only 14 guys in the league who play less than 25 minutes, while scoring 10+ PPG on a TS% of 55%+. 4 of those 14 are Lopez, Randle, Clarkson and Nance.
Julius Randle is the only player in the league playing less than 22 minutes per game (currently at 20.8 MPG) who averages 10+ PPG, 5+ RPG, 1.0+ APG on 55%+ TS%. He's also currently 16th in the league in defensive rating. _________________ LakersGround's Terms of Service
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justsomelakerfan Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Jul 2016 Posts: 10939
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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Both guys have been really good this year but JC's skill set is just a bit more replaceable. Not many NBA players can do what Julius does _________________ Austin Reaves
Tweeter: @sarah_dotbiz |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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If we had 2 of LBj/Cousins/PG13, and had the ability to sign or trade for Draymond Green or Klay Thompson which would you guys pick?
Klay right? Same logic applies. |
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LakerSanity Moderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 33474 Location: Long Beach, California
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | If we had 2 of LBj/Cousins/PG13, and had the ability to sign or trade for Draymond Green or Klay Thompson which would you guys pick?
Klay right? Same logic applies. |
Ummm... no, not unless you're comparing Clarkson to Thompson, because comparing a 23 year old Randle to Green is actually reasonable. And, even if that was an apt comparison, who of those three you get can help to determine your preference.
As for the financial issue, one has to assume in answering this question that Clarkson can be traded for cap space, meaning that we either keep Randle at the same cap hold or Clarkson at the same cap hold. If we can't trade Clarkson, this question really is irrelevant as, assuming we can actually get two max guys, we won't have a choice but to keep Clarkson over Randle. _________________ LakersGround's Terms of Service
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Joe Pesci Star Player
Joined: 15 Oct 2017 Posts: 3885
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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adkindo wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | I'm not sure PG13 would make much sense at the 2 |
he was solid at the #2 early in his career for significant minutes, but I also have my doubts he can still be highly effective at the #2. He is still good at the #3, but I agree he is on track to probably be mostly a #4 within a couple years. |
With the exception of PG, positional labels are almost always based on who a player guards on defense.
So the question becomes, can George check the majority of NBA SGs? And which SGs would give him trouble?
I think the answers are yes, and not very many, if any at all.
The beauty is that with Ball, George, Randle, Kuzma, James, or Ingram on the floor together, they’d render the opposing team’s pick and roll nearly obsolete defensively with their ability to switch everything.
I agree with you that George could easily play some defensive four a year or two from now, but with the nature of the league the way it is, and with the SG position being one of the weakest positions in the league, I could see him thriving there.
No one could see an old, broken down, ACL recuperating Ron Harper guarding PGs in the triangle either, but he did. It worked and worked well, making his teams historically great defensively. |
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fontana3d Star Player
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:15 am Post subject: |
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Joe Pesci wrote: | adkindo wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | I'm not sure PG13 would make much sense at the 2 |
he was solid at the #2 early in his career for significant minutes, but I also have my doubts he can still be highly effective at the #2. He is still good at the #3, but I agree he is on track to probably be mostly a #4 within a couple years. |
With the exception of PG, positional labels are almost always based on who a player guards on defense.
So the question becomes, can George check the majority of NBA SGs? And which SGs would give him trouble?
I think the answers are yes, and not very many, if any at all.
The beauty is that with Ball, George, Randle, Kuzma, James, or Ingram on the floor together, they’d render the opposing team’s pick and roll nearly obsolete defensively with their ability to switch everything.
I agree with you that George could easily play some defensive four a year or two from now, but with the nature of the league the way it is, and with the SG position being one of the weakest positions in the league, I could see him thriving there.
No one could see an old, broken down, ACL recuperating Ron Harper guarding PGs in the triangle either, but he did. It worked and worked well, making his teams historically great defensively. |
If we sign LeBron and George then Randle and Clarkson are both goners. |
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epak Retired Number
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:42 am Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | If we had 2 of LBj/Cousins/PG13, and had the ability to sign or trade for Draymond Green or Klay Thompson which would you guys pick?
Klay right? Same logic applies. |
Great question.
I don't know. Draymond does everything. Klay defends and rips 3s.
Wow. I'm torn. |
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waterman40 Star Player
Joined: 17 Jun 2003 Posts: 6280 Location: Central Coast
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:05 am Post subject: |
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So many variables, I think strictly on dollars, you would shed the $12-13 million salary of Clarkson, along with the stretched Deng contract, to give as much room as possible. If our targets are Lebron and PG13, I think we might ask Lopez and Randle if either is interesting in signing a low $$ 1 year deal. If neither bites on the chance to play with a Lebron team, then we go the route of a McGee or other low cost center for big line-ups.
If just PG13 comes, I think we re-sign Randle to a bigger deal. If Lebron is the only big free agent to come here, then I think we keep Clarkson and try to re-sign Lopez. _________________ LAKERS 2019-2020: NBA World Champions! |
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blackmamba08 Star Player
Joined: 09 Jun 2015 Posts: 2607 Location: Croatia
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:28 am Post subject: |
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Hard questions but I would go with Jules. he is younger, more space to improve. JC is at his top game I think. And as someone has sad already its easier to find guards than good big in the league at the moment. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:14 am Post subject: |
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epak wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | If we had 2 of LBj/Cousins/PG13, and had the ability to sign or trade for Draymond Green or Klay Thompson which would you guys pick?
Klay right? Same logic applies. |
Great question.
I don't know. Draymond does everything. Klay defends and rips 3s.
Wow. I'm torn. |
Hmm, the answer was easy for me because in that event we would have a frontcourt rotation of Cousins, LBJ, Kuzma, Nance, Ingram and a backcourt of Ball, Ennis, Hart, Caruso.
But if we were stacked in the backcourt, I'd take Draymond.
I agree in a vacuum Julius is the one you take but when you have no one of note in your backcourt other than Ball, I don't see how you don't add the guard. |
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Joe Pesci Star Player
Joined: 15 Oct 2017 Posts: 3885
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:16 am Post subject: |
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fontana3d wrote: | Joe Pesci wrote: | adkindo wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | I'm not sure PG13 would make much sense at the 2 |
he was solid at the #2 early in his career for significant minutes, but I also have my doubts he can still be highly effective at the #2. He is still good at the #3, but I agree he is on track to probably be mostly a #4 within a couple years. |
With the exception of PG, positional labels are almost always based on who a player guards on defense.
So the question becomes, can George check the majority of NBA SGs? And which SGs would give him trouble?
I think the answers are yes, and not very many, if any at all.
The beauty is that with Ball, George, Randle, Kuzma, James, or Ingram on the floor together, they’d render the opposing team’s pick and roll nearly obsolete defensively with their ability to switch everything.
I agree with you that George could easily play some defensive four a year or two from now, but with the nature of the league the way it is, and with the SG position being one of the weakest positions in the league, I could see him thriving there.
No one could see an old, broken down, ACL recuperating Ron Harper guarding PGs in the triangle either, but he did. It worked and worked well, making his teams historically great defensively. |
If we sign LeBron and George then Randle and Clarkson are both goners. |
Get informed. The Lakers, with a Deng dump, could keep one of Clarkson or Randle and still have 65 million left to sign George and James to their full maxes (no discounts). |
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ringfinger Retired Number
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:18 am Post subject: |
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blackmamba08 wrote: | Hard questions but I would go with Jules. he is younger, more space to improve. JC is at his top game I think. And as someone has sad already its easier to find guards than good big in the league at the moment. |
There's no more money left to sign any guards though.
This is why we spent our cap space on KCP this offseason and not another power forward. |
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Joe Pesci Star Player
Joined: 15 Oct 2017 Posts: 3885
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:18 am Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | epak wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | If we had 2 of LBj/Cousins/PG13, and had the ability to sign or trade for Draymond Green or Klay Thompson which would you guys pick?
Klay right? Same logic applies. |
Great question.
I don't know. Draymond does everything. Klay defends and rips 3s.
Wow. I'm torn. |
Hmm, the answer was easy for me because in that event we would have a frontcourt rotation of Cousins, LBJ, Kuzma, Nance, Ingram and a backcourt of Ball, Ennis, Hart, Caruso.
But if we were stacked in the backcourt, I'd take Draymond.
I agree in a vacuum Julius is the one you take but when you have no one of note in your backcourt other than Ball, I don't see how you don't add the guard. |
So who do you take if the Lakers’ starting center is Brook Lopez next year? Is Clarkson still your guy in that scenario? |
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Joe Pesci Star Player
Joined: 15 Oct 2017 Posts: 3885
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:28 am Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | blackmamba08 wrote: | Hard questions but I would go with Jules. he is younger, more space to improve. JC is at his top game I think. And as someone has sad already its easier to find guards than good big in the league at the moment. |
There's no more money left to sign any guards though.
This is why we spent our cap space on KCP this offseason and not another power forward. |
You are really overstating this point.
Hart, George, Caruso, and Ball (with a minimum free agent shooter signing like Matt Thomas) is enough of a guard core to be successful, and LeBron James could and would act as the “backup” PG to Ball. He’s essentially been playing PG his whole damn career anyway.
Losing Clarkson and gaining George and James does not AT ALL create a chasm in the backcourt.
If there is any hole at Center, you sign/choose Randle over Clarkson in a hot minute, no question.
If Cousins is signed, then your points are valid, because Randle becomes much less needed. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Joe Pesci wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | epak wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | If we had 2 of LBj/Cousins/PG13, and had the ability to sign or trade for Draymond Green or Klay Thompson which would you guys pick?
Klay right? Same logic applies. |
Great question.
I don't know. Draymond does everything. Klay defends and rips 3s.
Wow. I'm torn. |
Hmm, the answer was easy for me because in that event we would have a frontcourt rotation of Cousins, LBJ, Kuzma, Nance, Ingram and a backcourt of Ball, Ennis, Hart, Caruso.
But if we were stacked in the backcourt, I'd take Draymond.
I agree in a vacuum Julius is the one you take but when you have no one of note in your backcourt other than Ball, I don't see how you don't add the guard. |
So who do you take if the Lakers’ starting center is Brook Lopez next year? Is Clarkson still your guy in that scenario? |
Yes. Mainly because with Lopez/Kuz/Nance, Randle is averaging in the high teens MPG, like 18 MPG or something. With Cousins/PG13/Kuz/Nance or Cousins/LBJ/Kuz/Nance, I would expect that number to get even smaller, maybe closer to 15 MPG.
Now, would I want someone of JR's caliber at 15 MPG? Would love it. But at the cost of someone who should be a full time rotation player? No. So unless JR is signing for like $6M/yr, which I am assuming he is not, then no.
And I agree with you. If the two of the three are LBJ and PG13, then you're right, Randle would probably be the guy.
Frankly, this is why I'm not in favor of signing 3s/4s with our cap space unless we're going to move them for additional pieces. We have a glut there already.
We will go in to next year with no starting 5, no starting 2. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:25 am Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | Joe Pesci wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | Joe Pesci wrote: | Randle quite easily. He does more than just score and is the more rare/unique/hard-to-find player.
I wish Clarkson well bonin’ chicks in Cleveland next year. |
When would Randle play on a team featuring 3 of Cousins/LBJ/PG13/Kuzma? Not a whole lot of playing time there for a player you have to pay. That role would be better served via a journeyman or rookie.
And with little to no cap space remaining you have no SG, no backup SG, no viable backup point.
You have to keep Clarkson in that scenario as JR offers little on court value with those behemoths on the roster.
Consider this. Randle averages 27.7 MPG with a frontcourt of Lopez/Kuzma and probably less than that once Nance returns. That will diminish significantly if you have 2 of LBJ/Cousins/PG. |
If Cousins is the guy you sign, then you’re right, Randle becomes obsolete.
But if it’s just James and George, there’s still a role for him, a rather large one actually.
And I have George playing SG, James as the backup PG, and Hart as the backup SG (with a guy like Matt Thomas waiting in the wings if Hart isn’t ready), so, although Clarkson is pretty vital to th team his year, his importance, to me, is greatly overstated next year on a team with James and George. |
I'm not sure PG13 would make much sense at the 2. He's really more a 4. A Kuzma type player.
If we sign LBJ and PG13, I think that would be a mistake. We have ingram and kuz rostered still.
I think the most sense would be DMC and Avery Bradley. Then we solve two needs, the 5 and 2, and have 1, 3, and 4 covered already.
Ball / FA or Ennis
Avery / JC / Hart
Ingram
Kuz / Nance
DMC / Zu
In that case, I guess you could make a case for either JC or Randle.
That's an elite defensive backcourt, length at 3 and 4. And muscle at 5. |
Does Boogie come here without a PG13/LBJ joining him? |
He will go where he is paid. NO is a real possibility. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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adkindo Retired Number
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:33 am Post subject: |
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blackmamba08 wrote: | Hard questions but I would go with Jules. he is younger, more space to improve. JC is at his top game I think. And as someone has sad already its easier to find guards than good big in the league at the moment. |
I do not think this statement has been true for several seasons in the NBA. Market will be terrible for 4's and 5's that are not very good shooters this off season. Effective perimeter players and efficient scorers are where the scarcity is now. Just look through the 2018 FA's and you will notice there are a ton of guys that can give you similar production to Randle.....and very few to replicate Clarkson. |
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adkindo Retired Number
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:34 am Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | He will go where he is paid. NO is a real possibility. |
maybe, but my gut says he is moved and resigned by the team that acquires him. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:37 am Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Luminous8 wrote: | activeverb wrote: | Clarkson is a generic off-the-bench gunner. Lots of guys like him in the league. Randle has more upside. |
Disagree JC is a run of the mill off the bench Gunner. He's been very poised and under control for the most part this year. IMO he's opened up a part of his game I wasn't sure he could do. The guy is playing like a vet ready to win. 25/4/5 per36 |
Agreed, he's playing the best ball of his career and is easily outplaying his contract so far this season. On a team run by Ball, he's a really valuable change of pace as a sixth man.
But the trade-off of having All-Star starters like Cousins and PG13 (in this scenario) would make JC's valuable contributions far less necessary. And over the course of Cousins/George's contracts, they should be able to add at least one guard with the MLE and draft who can approximate some of JC's contributions all while Ball improves as a scorer. |
If we sign PG the obvious trade targets should be Ingram and Kuzma. PG would make them a luxury and if you really want to contend, you should deal luxuries for need. I am sure that isn’t a popular idea, but as we saw in the 90’s, popular players should be on the block. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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