The problem with the Laker's coaching staff that nobody talks about
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:54 am    Post subject:

I always think back to an interview Steve Kerr did where he said the most important thing about collecting a coaching staff, is everyone being like friendly and getting along. Luke really, really took that advice to heart........ That advice completely ruining us.
The Warriors can do what they want because they're outlier talent.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:02 am    Post subject:

Maybe if all this positivity rubs off on the players. That would be good. And by positive, I mean +/- positive.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:20 am    Post subject:

In a nutshell we went from one coach that uttered useless platitudes based around negativity to one with a staff that echoes useless platitudes about positivity.

Yeah, let's get some X's and O's guys up in this joint. This whole nepotism/cronyism thing isn't working out.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:30 am    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
In a nutshell we went from one coach that uttered useless platitudes based around negativity to one with a staff that echoes useless platitudes about positivity.

Yeah, let's get some X's and O's guys up in this joint. This whole nepotism/cronyism thing isn't working out.

Or how about we get a competent FO that can draft an all-star having been in the lottery so many years and maybe make a few veteran additions that can make a good team?

We haven't had a team that has talent to be a .500 team in forever. We need some talent, bad. You can't expect to be a playoff team when you have Brook Lopez and KCP as your best moves of the summer. Not unless you have an all-star franchise player you've drafted, which we haven't either.

We've neither made a couple of really good moves or that 1 great move that makes a franchise competitive again. The Lakers always had that 1 great player to build around that made things easier. To overlook other holes. Kobe, Shaq, Magic. When they didn't, they had some good players all playing at a high level together.

Are we really saying Del Harris was a good head coach? At best, ok. I mean it's also about talent. We've had some very inept management from Mitch/Jimbo and that has only carried forward with Magic/Pelinka. Nothing Magic and Pelinka did this past summer helped the team get better in the short run either. At some point we have to stop blaming the coaches. We've gone through so many. We also need to get some talent. We don't have that 1 star player you can build the team around or a group that's at that point in their careers where you can call them good players.

For example Thibs in 'Sota has Towns, Butler, Wiggins. Obviously with that kind of talent, you go from where he was last year with Minnesota to a playoff team. We just messed up the drafts or didn't get lucky enough nor dif we trade for a star player. It's been a lot of punting and what ifs, with a few misses at the plate.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:36 am    Post subject:

TDRock wrote:
I am not on the fire Luke bandwagon but I have been saying since pretty much the season started that I would like for him to get rid of his Arizona friends and various random people, and get a real coaching staff.

This is where I stand too. Even as it goes downhill, I'm still impressed with what he did with this team defensively. And he's apparently built a good culture.

But we need real assistant coaches then, not the trash we currently have. It's like how people on LG have complained about how pathetic the lack of shooting improvement on this roster has been because we don't have a shooter coach. There's no excuse to have such a trash corps of coaches when you have practically unlimited budget to hire better coaches.

In fact, the one fireable offense Luke has, in my eyes, is if he insists on keeping this trash cadre of assistant coaches.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:38 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
In a nutshell we went from one coach that uttered useless platitudes based around negativity to one with a staff that echoes useless platitudes about positivity.

Yeah, let's get some X's and O's guys up in this joint. This whole nepotism/cronyism thing isn't working out.

Or how about we get a competent FO that can draft an all-star having been in the lottery so many years and maybe make a few veteran additions that can make a good team?

We haven't had a team that has talent to be a .500 team in forever. We need some talent, bad. You can't expect to be a playoff team when you have Brook Lopez and KCP as your best moves of the summer. Not unless you have an all-star franchise player you've drafted, which we haven't either.


Take a look at this absolute trash roster:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2015.html

Even factoring in them being in the East, this trash team won 40 games. I agree talent beats all, and we haven't gotten a Towns, Simmons, or Porzingis in the draft. Still, this team's on pace for 28 wins, and that's about to get worse with this December schedule. Maybe 40 wins in the West is asking for too much, but 35-37?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:52 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
In a nutshell we went from one coach that uttered useless platitudes based around negativity to one with a staff that echoes useless platitudes about positivity.

Yeah, let's get some X's and O's guys up in this joint. This whole nepotism/cronyism thing isn't working out.

Or how about we get a competent FO that can draft an all-star having been in the lottery so many years and maybe make a few veteran additions that can make a good team?

We haven't had a team that has talent to be a .500 team in forever. We need some talent, bad. You can't expect to be a playoff team when you have Brook Lopez and KCP as your best moves of the summer. Not unless you have an all-star franchise player you've drafted, which we haven't either.


Take a look at this absolute trash roster:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2015.html

Even factoring in them being in the East, this trash team won 40 games. I agree talent beats all, and we haven't gotten a Towns, Simmons, or Porzingis in the draft. Still, this team's on pace for 28 wins, and that's about to get worse with this December schedule. Maybe 40 wins in the West is asking for too much, but 35-37?


*crickets*
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:53 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
In a nutshell we went from one coach that uttered useless platitudes based around negativity to one with a staff that echoes useless platitudes about positivity.

Yeah, let's get some X's and O's guys up in this joint. This whole nepotism/cronyism thing isn't working out.

Or how about we get a competent FO that can draft an all-star having been in the lottery so many years and maybe make a few veteran additions that can make a good team?

We haven't had a team that has talent to be a .500 team in forever. We need some talent, bad. You can't expect to be a playoff team when you have Brook Lopez and KCP as your best moves of the summer. Not unless you have an all-star franchise player you've drafted, which we haven't either.


Take a look at this absolute trash roster:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2015.html

Even factoring in them being in the East, this trash team won 40 games. I agree talent beats all, and we haven't gotten a Towns, Simmons, or Porzingis in the draft. Still, this team's on pace for 28 wins, and that's about to get worse with this December schedule. Maybe 40 wins in the West is asking for too much, but 35-37?


Bradley has helped Detroit much more than KCP has us. Huge upgrade for them. I disagree that roster is trash. Better than our current roster.

Isiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Bradley, and a team that played together and hard is impressive but in the end realize that the way Isiah Thomas played in Boston even that year is better than any player we have right now. 19 points in 25 minutes off the bench?

And yes no doubt Stevens is a great coach and better than Luke. I'm not arguing against that. However with talent, I think Luke's methods work much better. Someone who is positive, about bringing teamwork etc. We have seen that in Golden State. I think he just isn't a good fit with this group. He needs better veteran stars who can play at a high level.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:55 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
tox wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
In a nutshell we went from one coach that uttered useless platitudes based around negativity to one with a staff that echoes useless platitudes about positivity.

Yeah, let's get some X's and O's guys up in this joint. This whole nepotism/cronyism thing isn't working out.

Or how about we get a competent FO that can draft an all-star having been in the lottery so many years and maybe make a few veteran additions that can make a good team?

We haven't had a team that has talent to be a .500 team in forever. We need some talent, bad. You can't expect to be a playoff team when you have Brook Lopez and KCP as your best moves of the summer. Not unless you have an all-star franchise player you've drafted, which we haven't either.


Take a look at this absolute trash roster:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2015.html

Even factoring in them being in the East, this trash team won 40 games. I agree talent beats all, and we haven't gotten a Towns, Simmons, or Porzingis in the draft. Still, this team's on pace for 28 wins, and that's about to get worse with this December schedule. Maybe 40 wins in the West is asking for too much, but 35-37?


Bradley has helped Detroit much more than KCP has us. Huge upgrade for them. I disagree that roster is trash. Better than our current roster.

Isiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Bradley, and a team that played together and hard is impressive but in the end realize that the way Isiah Thomas played in Boston even that year is better than any player we have right now. 19 points in 25 minutes off the bench?

And yes no doubt Stevens is a great coach and better than Luke. I'm not arguing against that. However with talent, I think Luke's methods work much better. Someone who is positive, about bringing teamwork etc. We have seen that in Golden State. I think he just isn't a good fit with this group. He needs better veteran stars who can play at a high level.


You have to look at it in terms of where they were in their career arc. Avery Bradley now is MUCH better than he was in 2014. Jae Crowder was playing spot minutes for them that year man.

The bottom line is you still need that X's and O's. To think that positivity alone is going to carry the day is silly.

So basically, what you're saying is that a veteran team with an established system and X's and O's in place would fourish under a coach taht offers nothing other than positivity and togetherness in place. Am I getting the message wrong? To me that's very damn close to the crap Scott was putting forth (except his came from a pathetic "toughen up" angle). What moron coach WOULDN'T succeed if those things were in place. So yeah no scheme, no x's and o's talk. Just positivity and togetherness and sharing the ball. Okay. Same old pliattudes with no substance.

It's an absolute insult to Kerr to suggest that his work was predicated on the culture and attitude his instilled. Sure that was a part of it but to ignore the foundatoin, the system he implemented that was the building blocks to their success. None of it works without the foundation he laid forth. None. There's actually a fantastic article about Kerr's first meeting with his coaches and the Xo's and O's he laid out to them at a restaurant. Actual substance...
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:55 am    Post subject:

When Houston hired MDA, they brought in an established NBA assistant coach in Jeff Bzdelik to help with the defense.

When Kerr took over at Golden Sate, they brought in an established NBA assistant NBA coach to help with the defense.

Shaw, Madsen and some Arizona guys are supposed to be the equivalents for the Lakers.


Brian Shaw buries the past, happy to be back on Lakers coaching staff

Quote:

Walton was hired by the Lakers at the end of April, and quickly set out to assemble his staff.

“I wanted my first assistant to have head coaching experience and obviously to have a lot more experience than I’ve had,” Walton said. “Out of the list of people, (Shaw) was the one, with the relationship and everything, he was the one I really wanted.”

Walton’s staff is a reflection of his experience, with ties to the University of Arizona (Jud Buechler and Jesse Mermuys) and the Warriors (Theo Robertson). Shaw is the link to Jackson and Walton’s nine seasons as a Lakers player.

He is also the staff’s most senior member.

“I’ve always been the youngest guy,” Shaw said.

Under Jackson, Shaw was a novice next to experienced hands like Tex Winter, Frank Hamblin and Jim Cleamons.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:28 am    Post subject:

> Walton’s staff is a reflection of his experience

Relative inexperience.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:39 am    Post subject:

I think it’s clear to reasonable eyes that Walton is struggling with mistakes that are often transparent to the naked eye.

Do you replace him now? Nope. That’d be impetuous. Bold, “gangsta” even, but still impetuous.

Time to put up or be shut up though. Walton doesn’t have to go on a three or four game winning streak to keep his job. He just has to show he can regain control and make proper decisions, be humble/changeable in his ideas, bend no doubt, but don’t “break”.

With the fragile and frigid relationship he has with his bench though, the hands-down, absolute, most exemplary aspect of this squad, it’s hard to forecast sunny days for Walton.

Those bench guys are playing for their lives out there: Brewer, Randle, Clarkson

And even though Kuzma has the road ahead of him, he plays as if he doesn’t, with a passion that is akin to playing as if he’s drowning.

This is the way of the bench unit though ... and it appears Walton may not be able to or can not make himself change course from the idea that all five of those bench guys need to be relegated there.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:59 am    Post subject:

The lakers don’t have a great roster, but they have enough talent to be better than 8-15, especially with their Oct/Nov schedule. Just watch other teams, the lakers talent isn’t so far behind other teams (outside the real championship contending teams).

I watch these other games and sometimes I scratch my head how X team is 12-10 and the Lakers are 8-15.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:15 am    Post subject:

As "Associate Head Coach," if Shaw hangs his hat on player development then he pretty much has nothing but thin air to hang his hat on. He's gotta go first imo.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:23 am    Post subject:

Yep all the Lakers need, is to continue to hire
and fire coaches every time the fan base makes
that request.

OR maybe we wait until we have an actual team and
then assess the situation.

Given the lack of talent on the team, I’ll take
door number 2.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:41 am    Post subject:

deal wrote:
Yep all the Lakers need, is to continue to hire
and fire coaches every time the fan base makes
that request.

OR maybe we wait until we have an actual team and
then assess the situation.

Given the lack of talent on the team, I’ll take
door number 2.

It’s not either or.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:46 am    Post subject:

We don't have an 'actual team' right now though. Even with perfect coaching we are probably still under .500.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:55 am    Post subject:

I see no problems in what the assistants are saying. This team is malleable.

There is no need for assistants to voice some mysterious guiding philosophy of the staff. This season's goals were about just very obvious things: experiment with various player combinations to determine how best to grow and deploy Ingram and Ball, and secondarily evaluate how well Randle and Clarkson fit in with what the main two can do together.

Every other goal or consideration is a distant tertiary factor (i.e., W-L record, use KCP, Lopez or Nance.) If it's unclear to the assistants as to what style of play best suits Ingram and Ball when interviews took place, it should surprise no one. No one knows that level of detail yet.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:42 am    Post subject:

PHILosophize wrote:
We don't have an 'actual team' right now though. Even with perfect coaching we are probably still under .500.


32 wins would be a great season
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:47 am    Post subject:

I think high level assistants probably want to coach on winning teams cos they'll get future looks for bigger roles with other teams --- like how Warriors and Spurs staff spots are coveted.

Also, Luke is really young - he may not have relationships with a lot of the older top level assistants.

I dont mind BShaw but I do wish we had a guy in that spot who was a bit more X and O's.

Crazy to think how good of a staff we had under Mike Brown now - Clifford, Quit Snyder, Ettore Messina (or was he DAntoni?).
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:06 am    Post subject:

yeah we should have given that staff a lot more time
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:21 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
In a nutshell we went from one coach that uttered useless platitudes based around negativity to one with a staff that echoes useless platitudes about positivity.

Yeah, let's get some X's and O's guys up in this joint. This whole nepotism/cronyism thing isn't working out.

Or how about we get a competent FO that can draft an all-star having been in the lottery so many years and maybe make a few veteran additions that can make a good team?

We haven't had a team that has talent to be a .500 team in forever. We need some talent, bad. You can't expect to be a playoff team when you have Brook Lopez and KCP as your best moves of the summer. Not unless you have an all-star franchise player you've drafted, which we haven't either.

We've neither made a couple of really good moves or that 1 great move that makes a franchise competitive again. The Lakers always had that 1 great player to build around that made things easier. To overlook other holes. Kobe, Shaq, Magic. When they didn't, they had some good players all playing at a high level together.

Are we really saying Del Harris was a good head coach? At best, ok. I mean it's also about talent. We've had some very inept management from Mitch/Jimbo and that has only carried forward with Magic/Pelinka. Nothing Magic and Pelinka did this past summer helped the team get better in the short run either. At some point we have to stop blaming the coaches. We've gone through so many. We also need to get some talent. We don't have that 1 star player you can build the team around or a group that's at that point in their careers where you can call them good players.

For example Thibs in 'Sota has Towns, Butler, Wiggins. Obviously with that kind of talent, you go from where he was last year with Minnesota to a playoff team. We just messed up the drafts or didn't get lucky enough nor dif we trade for a star player. It's been a lot of punting and what ifs, with a few misses at the plate.


I agree with this. We have basically struck out with our high draft picks. Not a single star player drafted yet. We have done well with getting "gems" in the lower picks, but where we REALLY needed to do well was getting a couple of bonafide all stars with our 2 through 7 picks. We have some good young talent, but compared to the Twolves as you mentioned, we struck out.

This roster is not good. No shooters and we are very unbalanced. Haven't gotten a good FA guy in, well, I can't remember. Our coaching staff has not done a very good job with the roster rotation IMHO. It's like they are learning as they go. Not sure they are very good at player development. Ingram has shown definite strides. We got lucky with a guy like Kuzma who came in with the skills already in place. Lonzo has a lot of talent, but is so raw in shooting/scoring that he is years away. Randle has made an improvement, but is it because it's his contract year? He still makes some of the most frustrating bone-head plays several times a game it seems.

Overall, I am not seeing a team of players or coaches that are anywhere near breaking out. We are looking like one of the 6 worst teams in the league again, and to make things worse almost every other team has put that big target on our backs again with Lonzo being our draft pick. It's not even Lonzo's fault, but the hype surrounding him and the large amount of Lakers hate league wide, these guys are giving extra effort to pound an already young, not very good team. Hopefully Lonzo and some other guys are "learning by fire" by being put into this situation. Time will tell.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: The problem with the Laker's coaching staff that nobody talks about

Don Draper wrote:
Positivity.

If you think that's crazy, hear me out.

Go check out the "meet the staff" page on the Lakers website and read about how our assistant coaches view their roles next to Luke:

http://www.nba.com/lakers/archive/Coaching%20Staff

Not a single one of them talks about a specific philosophy, or brings any real experience to the table besides maybe Brian Keefe (yet his claim to fame is still a pep talk about being positive that he had with Kevin Durant in 2014). .


His staff is inexperienced, and that's an issue that many people have noted. That said, I wouldn't evaluate these guys based on these little puff-piece interviews. They read as if the interviewer asked them "How great is it to work with Luke?" rather than probed them about their basketball philosophy.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:37 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:


We haven't had a team that has talent to be a .500 team in forever. We need some talent, bad. You can't expect to be a playoff team when you have Brook Lopez and KCP as your best moves of the summer. Not unless you have an all-star franchise player you've drafted, which we haven't either.

.



Lopez was simply an expiring contract we took on to get rid of Mozgov so we'd have cap space to go after free agents next year. KCP is just a one year filler to preserve cap space.

Whether they were good moves will depend on how the free agent plan goes, not on how the team does this year.

Neither Ball or Ingram is exactly setting the league on fire, so it's anyone's guess if the plan will actually pan out (I have doubts). But the Lopez and KCP moves were about trying to land George, Cousins and Lebron; they weren't about making us a .500 team this year.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:24 am    Post subject:

TEEGUNN wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
In a nutshell we went from one coach that uttered useless platitudes based around negativity to one with a staff that echoes useless platitudes about positivity.

Yeah, let's get some X's and O's guys up in this joint. This whole nepotism/cronyism thing isn't working out.

Or how about we get a competent FO that can draft an all-star having been in the lottery so many years and maybe make a few veteran additions that can make a good team?

We haven't had a team that has talent to be a .500 team in forever. We need some talent, bad. You can't expect to be a playoff team when you have Brook Lopez and KCP as your best moves of the summer. Not unless you have an all-star franchise player you've drafted, which we haven't either.

We've neither made a couple of really good moves or that 1 great move that makes a franchise competitive again. The Lakers always had that 1 great player to build around that made things easier. To overlook other holes. Kobe, Shaq, Magic. When they didn't, they had some good players all playing at a high level together.

Are we really saying Del Harris was a good head coach? At best, ok. I mean it's also about talent. We've had some very inept management from Mitch/Jimbo and that has only carried forward with Magic/Pelinka. Nothing Magic and Pelinka did this past summer helped the team get better in the short run either. At some point we have to stop blaming the coaches. We've gone through so many. We also need to get some talent. We don't have that 1 star player you can build the team around or a group that's at that point in their careers where you can call them good players.

For example Thibs in 'Sota has Towns, Butler, Wiggins. Obviously with that kind of talent, you go from where he was last year with Minnesota to a playoff team. We just messed up the drafts or didn't get lucky enough nor dif we trade for a star player. It's been a lot of punting and what ifs, with a few misses at the plate.


I agree with this. We have basically struck out with our high draft picks. Not a single star player drafted yet. We have done well with getting "gems" in the lower picks, but where we REALLY needed to do well was getting a couple of bonafide all stars with our 2 through 7 picks. We have some good young talent, but compared to the Twolves as you mentioned, we struck out.

This roster is not good. No shooters and we are very unbalanced. Haven't gotten a good FA guy in, well, I can't remember. Our coaching staff has not done a very good job with the roster rotation IMHO. It's like they are learning as they go. Not sure they are very good at player development. Ingram has shown definite strides. We got lucky with a guy like Kuzma who came in with the skills already in place. Lonzo has a lot of talent, but is so raw in shooting/scoring that he is years away. Randle has made an improvement, but is it because it's his contract year? He still makes some of the most frustrating bone-head plays several times a game it seems.

Overall, I am not seeing a team of players or coaches that are anywhere near breaking out. We are looking like one of the 6 worst teams in the league again, and to make things worse almost every other team has put that big target on our backs again with Lonzo being our draft pick. It's not even Lonzo's fault, but the hype surrounding him and the large amount of Lakers hate league wide, these guys are giving extra effort to pound an already young, not very good team. Hopefully Lonzo and some other guys are "learning by fire" by being put into this situation. Time will tell.


IDK, BI and Lonzo are pretty dang good, they are just young. I predict both Ball and BI will be allstars.

Agree that the roster is unbalanced. We need shooters.
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R.I.P. Doc Buss

"I think we often overlook the best way for a team like these Lakers to obtain star level players is to turn their current players into stars, rather than looking for outside help."
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