Hornets, Blazers, Nets interested in dealing for Jordan Clarkson?
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Joe Pesci
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:06 am    Post subject:

I agree with much of what people are saying here, I must ask though, because we know how dumb executives can be, if, hypothetically, a team were offering a pick projected to be around #20 for Jordan Clarkson, do you do it?

I hear yinoma saying that a mid first for Clarkson would never happen, and I can’t really argue against that, but if some silly team were offering a right under mid first round pick for Clarkson, do you do it?

I’m basically asking some of you all how deeply and firmly you're willing to hold on to personal ideology instead of embracing humility, a perpetual recognition that you could be wrong at any given moment.

What would be the right play in this hypothetical scenario? Hold on to Clarkson until the summer or accept an offer for a moderate level first round pick and prepare to jettison Deng.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:07 am    Post subject:

If a team offers a 15th pick for JC (and expiring deals), of course it's a no brainer.

Problem is, how many teams will offer a 1st rounder AND expiring deals? I think it's one or the other.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:18 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
If a team offers a 15th pick for JC (and expiring deals), of course it's a no brainer.

Problem is, how many teams will offer a 1st rounder AND expiring deals? I think it's one or the other.

You’re right. The idea is somewhat pie in the sky, but I wondered who would, at the very least, concede that trading Clarkson for a #15-22 pick is advantageous to future plans.

Kudos to you. MJ, obstinately, wouldn’t trade Clarkson for a low lottery pick.

“Perpetual hard lines make no room for life’s blurs.”
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:21 am    Post subject:

If a team is offering a late 1st (25th and up) AND expiring, you probably have to take that too.

But most likely all we'll get are either a late 1st with deals that may go beyond this year, or just expiring deals.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:24 am    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
How would this work from Dallas' point of view?

1) Dallas tells Randle they will offer him $15 mil a year.
2) Randle tells Magic about the impending offer from Dallas
3) Magic tells Randle not to sign that deal yet, sign it later and the Lakers promise to match
4) Randle tells Dallas to wait until the Lakers are done shopping then offer him that $15 mil deal.

5) Dallas agrees. They save their cap room indefinitely waiting for Randle.
6) Time passes, Lakers are done shopping. They tell Randle to go sign that Dallas deal
7) Randle tells Dallas to now offer him $15 mil. Dallas obliges.
8) Lakers match

What does Dallas get out of this?

It’s here where you go off the path ...

3) Magic tells Randle that he’d match, so DON’T SIGN OFFER at all. He’ll match that deal after James is signed. Scouts honor.
4) Randle tells Dallas he’s staying in L.A.
5) Magic signs (or doesn’t sign) two max free agents.
6) Magic now goes over the cap to sign Randle to the original “offer” he got from Dallas.



A couple of things:

1) If the Lakers are going to sign Randle w/o having him sign Dallas' offer sheet, why make him go get one from Dallas first? Why can't the Lakers negotiate w/ Randle on a fair price w/o getting Dallas involved?

2) What are the ramifications to Randle's agent? He'd be burning bridges w/ Dallas. Dallas will be hesitant to negotiate w/ him again.

3) This offer from Dallas, is it a verbal or written offer? If it's just a verbal offer that Dallas gives to Randle, then Randle can tell Magic anything. Hey, they offered me $18 mil a year Magic, you wanna match?

If it was a written offer from Dallas, then it was a negotiated offer n he was expected to sign it.

For example, they would go back and forth on the price until they settle on $15 mil a year for 5 years. Dallas will ask, if we offered you this amount, will you sign it? Randle's agent will say, draw up the paperwork, present it to my client and he'll sign it.

If Randle's agent is honest about their intentions, i.e. draft up the offer, I'll present it to my client, and we'll take it to the Lakers to see how they feel about it, and maybe we'll sign it, maybe we won't. You'll just have to wait and see.

If they're honest about their intentions Dallas won't extend them a formal written offer. The whole strategy in offering Randle an offer sheet is that Dallas knows that the Lakers are chasing other free agents and they would have to make a decision on whether to match or not. Dallas did the same thing w/ Harrison Barnes when GS was chasing Durant. That's the whole point in offering a contract. Put pressure on the other team to make a decision.

If they're not honest about their intentions then Randle's agent will have burned his bridges w/ Dallas and Mark Cuban after this.

Look at how Dan Fegan reacted after the DeAndre Jordan fiasco w/ Dallas.

But honestly, why would Randle show so much loyalty to Magic and the Lakers? The Lakers won't give him what he wants - $15 mil a year. He has to go out and find a team willing. He finds one in Dallas who extends him an offer sheet thinking that he'll sign it. Instead, he uses it to take it back to Magic and also aids Magic in signing other players by waiting.

So why bring Dallas into it only to backstab them? Seems unnecessary.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:01 am    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
How would this work from Dallas' point of view?

1) Dallas tells Randle they will offer him $15 mil a year.
2) Randle tells Magic about the impending offer from Dallas
3) Magic tells Randle not to sign that deal yet, sign it later and the Lakers promise to match
4) Randle tells Dallas to wait until the Lakers are done shopping then offer him that $15 mil deal.

5) Dallas agrees. They save their cap room indefinitely waiting for Randle.
6) Time passes, Lakers are done shopping. They tell Randle to go sign that Dallas deal
7) Randle tells Dallas to now offer him $15 mil. Dallas obliges.
8) Lakers match

What does Dallas get out of this?

It’s here where you go off the path ...

3) Magic tells Randle that he’d match, so DON’T SIGN OFFER at all. He’ll match that deal after James is signed. Scouts honor.
4) Randle tells Dallas he’s staying in L.A.
5) Magic signs (or doesn’t sign) two max free agents.
6) Magic now goes over the cap to sign Randle to the original “offer” he got from Dallas.

PG - Ball - (James) - Caruso
SG - George - Hart - Thomas
C - Nance - Randle - Bryant
PF - Kuzma - Wear
SF - James - Ingram


And if Randle isn’t starting, he signs with Dallas.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:06 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Now teams can negotiate with RFAs during the moratorium so they can provide an offer sheet in the first minute of free agency. Meanwhile teams can’t negotiate with UFAs until the moratorium is over.


Right on the first sentence, but wrong on the second sentence. Teams can negotiate with everyone on July 1, but they can't sign anyone until noon on July 6.

The risk comes from the fact that the big name free agents may take their time while different teams court them. If the offer sheet is signed during the moratorium, it can take effect on July 6, which means we would need to match by July 8.


True, and I was also incorrect that now RFAs can sign an offer sheet during the moratorium. So we could have to decide on a RFA before talking contract with an UFA.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:10 am    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
In essence, I only see Clarkson being used as a added filler in a Paul George trade, OKC is gonna need to add scoring if they end up trading PG. and if we move KCP/Clarkson in a deal for PG that will lessen the blow of George's offensive output.


OKC won’t pay luxury tax for Clarkson
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:18 pm    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
captain jack wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
PHILosophize wrote:
wouldn't stretching him be a lot better than giving up multiple 1st rounders?

Stretching him means losing Randle.

So, just to recap: Kuzma won’t be traded because they’d rather have him than Randle. If the draft picks don’t work in trading Deng, then you stretch Deng and lose Randle.

Or, Phil, you can happily keep your draft picks, stretch Deng, and just let Randle walk in favor of your draft picks.

I’d rather have Randle than the draft picks personally, so I’d rather trade picks and Nance with Deng if possible.

Hope that makes sense.

Please stop with the trade Kuzma foolery and the Magic is a retarded buffoon innuendo. Trust me, the only people talking of trading Kuzma with Deng are you spit wads.

You don’t have to justify your non-adherence to signing two max guys by painting Magic as some doofus who will trade his life away to make it happen at any at all cost.

If teams play hardball with the Lakers in trading for Deng, the casualty will be Randle NOT KUZMA.


Thank you for setting these posters straight. Magic aint stupid and they’re not trading Kuzma. Just an FYI...lebronz is not coming here. I do see us signing boogie. Why do we need pg if we have bi and Kuzma?

Because George improves the defense (he can guard 2-4), which means you can pencil him in at Pope’s current SG spot, and the team is demonstrably better on offense with him as well.

George is a no-brainer, even if he’s forced to play “slightly” out of position (but not really) at SG.

Is there a SG that you think would give George trouble?


on the other hand... how many SGs can guard Paul George effectively? this is an outside scorer at PF size, can shoot, attack the basket. hed have a missmatch nearly every game
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:


I believe that if Randle had an offer from Dallas for 15 mill/yr, told Magic before signing it, then Magic agrees to match it if Randle waits til they finish shopping, I’d believe Magic.


Maybe. Or maybe Cuban says: "I'll give you $80 million for 5 years. The terms are you have sign the contract at 12:01 a.m. on June 6. If you don't sign, the offer is withdrawn at 12:02 and I move on to my second choice. So you decide: Do you want to risk $80 million on a unenforceable promise from a team that has already screwed you and keeps you on the backburner, or do you want to come to a team that considers you its #1 priority, its future star, and isn't hesitating to give the money you deserve? You're a smart guy. Do the smart thing and come to a place where you're really wanted and really valued."
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:37 pm    Post subject:

The way jc is playing now id coerce the nets to take on deng salary too. Not sure how numbers will work but thats what i would want from them
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:52 pm    Post subject:

From the QFTOS thread, Sixers fans want to trade for JC too.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:56 pm    Post subject:

I'll just go out on a limb and say if Ingram puts up numbers such as 19/5/4 post all-star break. I don't want nor do I think we need Paul George.

But that also comes from a place where I wish Luke would play Ingram at the 2 again after the previous success and play Kuzma at the 3.

If Ingram is putting up 18-19 ppg from the 2 and Kuzma continued with his 18ppg from the three then I don't think we'd really need to pursue 30M for Paul George tbh. We could stick with what we had on rookie contracts and by the time it came to pay them, Paul George would be in his early 30s.

I personally think if Luke ran Ingram at the 2, Kuz at the 3 and Randle at the 4 next to Lopez and they three put up the expected numbers it may be an easier sell to a free agent such as Cousins, which I feel this team needs a lot more.

But most importantly it would mean more potential victories for the team, which is why a free agent would even want to come here.

In addition to that, aiming for just one max free agent makes the idea of stretching Deng much easier.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:26 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
I'll just go out on a limb and say if Ingram puts up numbers such as 19/5/4 post all-star break. I don't want nor do I think we need Paul George.

But that also comes from a place where I wish Luke would play Ingram at the 2 again after the previous success and play Kuzma at the 3.

If Ingram is putting up 18-19 ppg from the 2 and Kuzma continued with his 18ppg from the three then I don't think we'd really need to pursue 30M for Paul George tbh. We could stick with what we had on rookie contracts and by the time it came to pay them, Paul George would be in his early 30s.

I personally think if Luke ran Ingram at the 2, Kuz at the 3 and Randle at the 4 next to Lopez and they three put up the expected numbers it may be an easier sell to a free agent such as Cousins, which I feel this team needs a lot more.

But most importantly it would mean more potential victories for the team, which is why a free agent would even want to come here.

In addition to that, aiming for just one max free agent makes the idea of stretching Deng much easier.




From all reports our top three targets are Lebron, George, and Cousins. And it's not hard to find a ton of fans who thinks each of them is a great idea, and a ton of fans who thinks each of them is a terrible idea.

Magic wants stars, and he'll sign the first one or two who says yes. I suspect he doesn't care who he keeps on the current roster apart from Ball, Kuz and Ingram. He'll jettison anyone else (and maybe even one of the three) to get names.


Last edited by activeverb on Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:31 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Now teams can negotiate with RFAs during the moratorium so they can provide an offer sheet in the first minute of free agency. Meanwhile teams can’t negotiate with UFAs until the moratorium is over.


Right on the first sentence, but wrong on the second sentence. Teams can negotiate with everyone on July 1, but they can't sign anyone until noon on July 6.

The risk comes from the fact that the big name free agents may take their time while different teams court them. If the offer sheet is signed during the moratorium, it can take effect on July 6, which means we would need to match by July 8.


True, and I was also incorrect that now RFAs can sign an offer sheet during the moratorium. So we could have to decide on a RFA before talking contract with an UFA.


Quote:
An offer sheet can be signed during the July Moratorium (see question number 105), however the two-day matching period does not commence until the end of the Moratorium


Nah, can talk to UFA during the moratorium, get verbal commitments, sign them within the first two days and decide what to do about matching at that point.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:32 pm    Post subject:

Jordan-esque wrote:
From the QFTOS thread, Sixers fans want to trade for JC too.


Clarkson for t Booker(expired)/saric
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:32 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
I'll just go out on a limb and say if Ingram puts up numbers such as 19/5/4 post all-star break. I don't want nor do I think we need Paul George.

But that also comes from a place where I wish Luke would play Ingram at the 2 again after the previous success and play Kuzma at the 3.

If Ingram is putting up 18-19 ppg from the 2 and Kuzma continued with his 18ppg from the three then I don't think we'd really need to pursue 30M for Paul George tbh. We could stick with what we had on rookie contracts and by the time it came to pay them, Paul George would be in his early 30s.

I personally think if Luke ran Ingram at the 2, Kuz at the 3 and Randle at the 4 next to Lopez and they three put up the expected numbers it may be an easier sell to a free agent such as Cousins, which I feel this team needs a lot more.

But most importantly it would mean more potential victories for the team, which is why a free agent would even want to come here.

In addition to that, aiming for just one max free agent makes the idea of stretching Deng much easier.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:34 pm    Post subject:

Hornets are going to have a tough time matching salaries. Assuming the Lakers are moving Clarkson, they're probably going to want expiring contracts in return. Portland could give those expiring contracts though.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:15 pm    Post subject:

Kuzzkontrol wrote:
Jordan-esque wrote:
From the QFTOS thread, Sixers fans want to trade for JC too.


Clarkson for t Booker(expired)/saric


Since they just gave up a 2nd round pick (along with Okafor and Stauskas) for Booker, that means that they actually had interest in him. They won't be trading him. However, they would move Amir Johnson and his $11MM expiring for sure, since he's now more expendable with Booker around.

I think this is a deal involving JC that makes sense, if both sides would agree to it. JC and Johnson's salaries match almost exactly, so there's no issue there, and it fits our plan of only taking back expiring salary. I heard Keith Pompey, a 76ers beat reporter, on LA radio today, and he echoed a lot of what the Sixer fans in that QFTOS thread were saying. Namely, that the team needs to acquire a guard with ball-handling skills, because Redick can't do that, and "that's what they were counting on from Fultz", which indeed suggests that this is probably a lost year for him with the shoulder injury. JC genuinely could be a great fit for them. Bayless is garbage, and McConnell can't break down a defense (though he hasn't been awful at all in his limited playing time).

The issue is, would they give up their '18 1st rounder? If not, would the Lakers accept multiple 2nd rounders in return instead, or maybe a player like TLC and one 2nd? If I'm the Lakers, I'm really holding out for that 1st rounder. I think the value is too good to pass up if they cave on that. And perhaps we could give the Sixers back our 2020 2nd round pick (but not the Denver '18 2nd or the CHI '19 2nd) in the deal to balance it out.

JC/2020 Lakers' 2nd for Johnson/2018 PHI 1st.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:42 pm    Post subject:

BI, Kuz, Ball, Randle, JC is a nice core to go forward. I’d hate to lose any of them. It would be stupid to rush into trades because someone somewhere is star-struck. Dreams have a nasty habit not to happen actually. Let the team grow. We have three potential all stars. Let them develop. At least don’t trade them for garbage.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:03 am    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
Kuzzkontrol wrote:
Jordan-esque wrote:
From the QFTOS thread, Sixers fans want to trade for JC too.


Clarkson for t Booker(expired)/saric


Since they just gave up a 2nd round pick (along with Okafor and Stauskas) for Booker, that means that they actually had interest in him. They won't be trading him. However, they would move Amir Johnson and his $11MM expiring for sure, since he's now more expendable with Booker around.

I think this is a deal involving JC that makes sense, if both sides would agree to it. JC and Johnson's salaries match almost exactly, so there's no issue there, and it fits our plan of only taking back expiring salary. I heard Keith Pompey, a 76ers beat reporter, on LA radio today, and he echoed a lot of what the Sixer fans in that QFTOS thread were saying. Namely, that the team needs to acquire a guard with ball-handling skills, because Redick can't do that, and "that's what they were counting on from Fultz", which indeed suggests that this is probably a lost year for him with the shoulder injury. JC genuinely could be a great fit for them. Bayless is garbage, and McConnell can't break down a defense (though he hasn't been awful at all in his limited playing time).

The issue is, would they give up their '18 1st rounder? If not, would the Lakers accept multiple 2nd rounders in return instead, or maybe a player like TLC and one 2nd? If I'm the Lakers, I'm really holding out for that 1st rounder. I think the value is too good to pass up if they cave on that. And perhaps we could give the Sixers back our 2020 2nd round pick (but not the Denver '18 2nd or the CHI '19 2nd) in the deal to balance it out.

JC/2020 Lakers' 2nd for Johnson/2018 PHI 1st.


Why would you do that? I want saric the player. With embiid and Simmons they can't have all 3 of saric/embiid/Simmons on the floor at the same time

Saric would be awesome next to randle
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:23 am    Post subject:

Kuzzkontrol wrote:

Why would you do that? I want saric the player. With embiid and Simmons they can't have all 3 of saric/embiid/Simmons on the floor at the same time




Actually, the 76ers start Embiid, Saric and Simmons -- they are usually on the floor together.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what they do. They arranged things so they'd had enough cap space for a max free agent next year. If they took Clarkson, they would lose that ability so I'm not sold they'd be in the market for him. If they did, they might run a hard bargain, since part of the benefit for giving them Clarkson would be to take them out of the running for George and Lebron. Lot of chess pieces moving around.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:42 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Kuzzkontrol wrote:

Why would you do that? I want saric the player. With embiid and Simmons they can't have all 3 of saric/embiid/Simmons on the floor at the same time




Actually, the 76ers start Embiid, Saric and Simmons -- they are usually on the floor together.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what they do. They arranged things so they'd had enough cap space for a max free agent next year. If they took Clarkson, they would lose that ability so I'm not sold they'd be in the market for him. If they did, they might run a hard bargain, since part of the benefit for giving them Clarkson would be to take them out of the running for George and Lebron. Lot of chess pieces moving around.


Yep, they have to ask themselves if they are interested in trying to improve this season. I also don't think it would be that hard to shed Clarkson's salary (or even Bayless' salary) if they needed to in order to get space for a max.

Obviously, I'd rather have Saric than a 2018 1st rounder, but I can't see Philly doing that. It's just not fair value IMO. Perhaps the '18 1st is, though. As for why we would do that, I mean, it's clear as day that we have an aspiration to have enough cap space for two maxes. And while losing JC would hurt the team right now, just keep in mind that the pick is quite valuable and might allow us to get rid of all of Deng's money. The pick could also turn value next season if we kept it. In addition, there's always the possibility that JC's play could take a dip and then his value dips along with that. Before the season, most of us were speculating that we would have to attach a pick just to move JC. If we could get a first round pick for him in the '18 Draft, there might be something to be said for selling high.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:32 am    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
Possible Clarkson In-Season Trade Targets:
Clarkson and Brewer for Greg Monroe (exp) and lottery protected first. (PHX)
Clarkson for Amir Johnson (exp) and lottery protected first. (PHI)
Clarkson for Joe Johnson (exp) and lottery protected first. (UTA)
Clarkson and Zubac for Davis (exp), Vonleh (exp), and lottery protected first. (POR)
Clarkson for Al Jefferson (exp) and lottery protected first. (IND)

For the 2018 draft, as of today, Phoenix (via Miami) drafts #12, Philadelphia drafts #18, Utah drafts #15, Portland drafts #17, and Indiana drafts #21.

All but PHX are battling for playoff positioning. This is significant because Philadelphia, Indiana, Portland, and Utah will probably be more apt to surrender a pick if they thought that the acquisition of Clarkson would significantly increase their chances leading up to and in the playoffs.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:58 am    Post subject:

If I’m Philadelphia, I don’t want to trade a first for Clarkson then trade yet another pick to dispose of Bayless this offseason to make room for a max.

For Philadelphia, that would essentially be two draft picks (one borderline lottery) to upgrade from Bayless to Clarkson. That’s too much.

Again, if I’m Philadelphia, the only way I give up this year’s Miami first round pick is if the Lakers take Bayless.

Clarkson for Bayless and 2018 first rd.pick (via Miami).

The Lakers are left with the problem of shedding Bayless — their cost for getting the mid first round pick.

This is more fair to me when you deeply consider both sides and what their both trying to do.
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