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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | adkindo wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | adkindo wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | So Roberson is playing "SG?" |
Yes, clearly Roberson is starting at SG for OKC this season...Roberson is a SG. |
And we wonder why they are struggling on offense? |
right, and people that believe that feel Alex Abrines should take Roberson's starting spot....another shooting guard....not a SF. It has been years since George saw real minutes @ SG. |
What's the major issue with him playing "SG." He has all the tools on offense/defense. It's a silly distinction IMO. |
Not on defense _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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GOODRICH25 wrote: | also, is the salary cap at exactly 101M or slightly more/less? |
They are projecting it to be $102 million, but they won't know for sure until the season ends because it depends on what the total revenues for this season are |
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adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | If we got him via trade/FA, you think the Lakers would play him at "SF" and move BI to "SG?" I just think it doesn't really matter. They'd go with Lonzo/PG13/BI as their perimeter trio. |
It is just something we disagree on, but I am not sure how you (and many others) on LG feel so strongly when he has not played heavy minutes @ SG since the 2011-12 season. He was 21 years old that season. After that season he played almost exclusively at the SF position until the broken leg before the 2014-15 Season @ the age of 25. Since then his PF minutes have steadily increased, and he has only seen spot minutes @ SG or none in some seasons.
I feel the evidence is overwhelming that he is a combo forward at this point in his career, and I do not think it is rational to attempt to build a contending roster with an older player being forced to play out of position, especially up a position (or is it down a position...I forget the way it works). All that being said....even if there is no real evidence that he could primarily play @ the SG position....I guess one could argue there is no proof beyond a reasonable doubt that he could not convert back to playing SG? Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Last edited by adkindo on Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:02 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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GOODRICH25 wrote: | adkindo wrote: | GOODRICH25 wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | Right, because it is well known that centers lead teams to titles. Happened in 2003. |
whats your point? |
my guess he is saying in the modern NBA, teams no longer build championship rosters around the Center position. It is much more of a perimeter game, and teams that feature their Center as their key offensive player have not won at the highest levels in recent decades. |
well, give me a prime Duncan or Shaq and id build a team around them. the problem isnt the center position per se, but lack of top3-5 talent on it |
No, the problem is the center position. Some of the least efficient offensive plays in the game. Get a guy who can defend on the perimeter and defend and that works in today’s game. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | GOODRICH25 wrote: | adkindo wrote: | GOODRICH25 wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | Right, because it is well known that centers lead teams to titles. Happened in 2003. |
whats your point? |
my guess he is saying in the modern NBA, teams no longer build championship rosters around the Center position. It is much more of a perimeter game, and teams that feature their Center as their key offensive player have not won at the highest levels in recent decades. |
well, give me a prime Duncan or Shaq and id build a team around them. the problem isnt the center position per se, but lack of top3-5 talent on it |
No, the problem is the center position. Some of the least efficient offensive plays in the game. Get a guy who can defend on the perimeter and defend and that works in today’s game. |
cough, cough...Nerlens Noel..cough |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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Joe Pesci wrote: |
Slightly over $4 million left to use plus the Room Exception.
Yep. Now subtract Ennis, Zubac, Deng, and Nance and you have the 28 million I mentioned to offer James (or Cousins): |
Which brings you around to the old problem of how do you get rid of Deng without taking back salary?
Last edited by activeverb on Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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GOODRICH25 Star Player
Joined: 17 Jun 2017 Posts: 3366
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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activeverb wrote: | GOODRICH25 wrote: | also, is the salary cap at exactly 101M or slightly more/less? |
They are projecting it to be $102 million, but they won't know for sure until the season ends because it depends on what the total revenues for this season are |
alright, thanks. any 100k we can get helps, if we try to squeeze in Randle + 2 maxes |
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GOODRICH25 Star Player
Joined: 17 Jun 2017 Posts: 3366
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | GOODRICH25 wrote: | adkindo wrote: | GOODRICH25 wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | Right, because it is well known that centers lead teams to titles. Happened in 2003. |
whats your point? |
my guess he is saying in the modern NBA, teams no longer build championship rosters around the Center position. It is much more of a perimeter game, and teams that feature their Center as their key offensive player have not won at the highest levels in recent decades. |
well, give me a prime Duncan or Shaq and id build a team around them. the problem isnt the center position per se, but lack of top3-5 talent on it |
No, the problem is the center position. Some of the least efficient offensive plays in the game. Get a guy who can defend on the perimeter and defend and that works in today’s game. |
so you wouldnt take a prime Duncan right now if you could, surround him with shooters, cutters and perimeter defenders and give it a go? |
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GOODRICH25 Star Player
Joined: 17 Jun 2017 Posts: 3366
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | adkindo wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | adkindo wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | So Roberson is playing "SG?" |
Yes, clearly Roberson is starting at SG for OKC this season...Roberson is a SG. |
And we wonder why they are struggling on offense? |
right, and people that believe that feel Alex Abrines should take Roberson's starting spot....another shooting guard....not a SF. It has been years since George saw real minutes @ SG. |
What's the major issue with him playing "SG." He has all the tools on offense/defense. It's a silly distinction IMO. |
Not on defense |
who are the SG he cant defend? |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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adkindo wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | If we got him via trade/FA, you think the Lakers would play him at "SF" and move BI to "SG?" I just think it doesn't really matter. They'd go with Lonzo/PG13/BI as their perimeter trio. |
It is just something we disagree on, but I am not sure how you (and many others) on LG feel so strongly when he has not played heavy minutes @ SG since the 2011-12 season. He was 21 years old that season. After that season he played almost exclusively at the SF position until the broken leg before the 2014-15 Season @ the age of 25. Since then his PF minutes have steadily increased, and he has only seen spot minutes @ SG or none in some seasons.
I feel the evidence is overwhelming that he is a combo forward at this point in his career, and I do not think it is rational to attempt to build a contending roster with an older player being forced to play out of position, especially up a position (or is it down a position...I forget the way it works). All that being said....even if there is no real evidence that he could primarily play @ the SG position....I guess one could argue there is no proof beyond a reasonable doubt that he could not convert back to playing SG? Everyone is entitled to their opinion. |
And I'm not going back to the "PG13 wants to play PF" argument either. But he will likely play mostly "SG" and "SF" on the Lakers unless we are moving BI. I don't think it's a problem at all. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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RI Laker Star Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 7135
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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There is just a lack of centers right now.
Last edited by RI Laker on Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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GOODRICH25 wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | adkindo wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | adkindo wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | So Roberson is playing "SG?" |
Yes, clearly Roberson is starting at SG for OKC this season...Roberson is a SG. |
And we wonder why they are struggling on offense? |
right, and people that believe that feel Alex Abrines should take Roberson's starting spot....another shooting guard....not a SF. It has been years since George saw real minutes @ SG. |
What's the major issue with him playing "SG." He has all the tools on offense/defense. It's a silly distinction IMO. |
Not on defense |
who are the SG he cant defend? |
I've watched several OKC games and he's oftentimes switched onto even PGs, and guards SGs too, and not a problem. A smart defender who uses angles and his length very well. One of the best IMO. His defense isn't overly reliant on sheer athleticism. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Laker's Fan Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2002 Posts: 12813
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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activeverb wrote: | Joe Pesci wrote: |
Slightly over $4 million left to use plus the Room Exception.
Yep. Now subtract Ennis, Zubac, Deng, and Nance and you have the 28 million I mentioned to offer James (or Cousins): |
Which brings you around to the old problem of how do you get rid of Deng without taking back salary? |
Which is actually the how do they deal Deng for less salary and/or for similar salary in multiple pieces that are easier to turn around and move. One of the biggest challenges in moving Deng's deal is the fact that it's so much money for one player. We can do a deal like Sacramento did when they traded Webber to Philly. _________________ Austin Reaves keeps his game tight, like Kobe Bryant on game night. |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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GOODRICH25 wrote: |
cant we add those minimum salaries + a room exception player after we already used up the cap space? |
You need to account for 12 spots with the salary cap. So any unfilled spots count against the cap at the minimum. |
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GOODRICH25 Star Player
Joined: 17 Jun 2017 Posts: 3366
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | GOODRICH25 wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | adkindo wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | adkindo wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | So Roberson is playing "SG?" |
Yes, clearly Roberson is starting at SG for OKC this season...Roberson is a SG. |
And we wonder why they are struggling on offense? |
right, and people that believe that feel Alex Abrines should take Roberson's starting spot....another shooting guard....not a SF. It has been years since George saw real minutes @ SG. |
What's the major issue with him playing "SG." He has all the tools on offense/defense. It's a silly distinction IMO. |
Not on defense |
who are the SG he cant defend? |
I've watched several OKC games and he's oftentimes switched onto even PGs, and guards SGs too, and not a problem. A smart defender who uses angles and his length very well. One of the best IMO. His defense isn't overly reliant on sheer athleticism. |
lets turn the table for a moment though, who are the SGs that can defend PG (or an even more improved Ingram next season, assuming the SF takes the task of defending George)? |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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RI Laker wrote: | There is just a lack of centers right now. |
Because teams no longer play that way. Most modern bigs play on the perimeter. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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GOODRICH25 Star Player
Joined: 17 Jun 2017 Posts: 3366
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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activeverb wrote: | GOODRICH25 wrote: |
cant we add those minimum salaries + a room exception player after we already used up the cap space? |
You need to account for 12 spots with the salary cap. So any unfilled spots count against the cap at the minimum. |
i dont like that |
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Dr. Funkbot Star Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2001 Posts: 8188 Location: Eagle Rock
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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activeverb wrote: | Joe Pesci wrote: |
Slightly over $4 million left to use plus the Room Exception.
Yep. Now subtract Ennis, Zubac, Deng, and Nance and you have the 28 million I mentioned to offer James (or Cousins): |
Which brings you around to the old problem of how do you get rid of Deng without taking back salary? |
I think that a stretch/buyout agreement will be made during the offseason. No one will trade for him. Likely he will agree to a buyout at slightly less than he is owed for the remaining 2 years on his deal and then we will stretch that amount.
However, if we don't want to do the 2 FA plan we can wait one more year to stretch/buyout his deal in the summer of 2019 which would save us a lot of dead money and hopefully allow us to keep JR an JC. _________________ R.I.P. Doc Buss |
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pjiddy Retired Number
Joined: 12 Dec 2005 Posts: 29017
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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i don't know why anyone bothers imagining a team with Lebron/George/Cousins. What do we need DMC's scoring for with Lebron and PG? All you need at that point is a rim protector, ideally one that can switch and knock down a jumpshot. Getting Cousins just invites another OKC-type nightmare. Who's going to be the Chris Bosh of that trio who gives up his scoring numbers and instincts to be a glue guy? PG is clearly not happy as that guy in OKC. It's not gonna be Lebron. Do you really see Cousins being that guy? And at that point, why are you paying him 30 million? |
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pjiddy Retired Number
Joined: 12 Dec 2005 Posts: 29017
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | RI Laker wrote: | There is just a lack of centers right now. |
Because teams no longer play that way. Most modern bigs play on the perimeter. |
Well with Embiid (and possibly Ayton and Bagley) we could be entering a center renaissance. Embiid could have a Shaq-like effect on the rest of the league where every team overpays a big man that can at least body Embiid up. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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pjiddy wrote: | i don't know why anyone bothers imagining a team with Lebron/George/Cousins. What do we need DMC's scoring for with Lebron and PG? All you need at that point is a rim protector, ideally one that can switch and knock down a jumpshot. Getting Cousins just invites another OKC-type nightmare. Who's going to be the Chris Bosh of that trio who gives up his scoring numbers and instincts to be a glue guy? PG is clearly not happy as that guy in OKC. It's not gonna be Lebron. Do you really see Cousins being that guy? And at that point, why are you paying him 30 million? |
At that point you find a way to convince Noel to join the team somehow on a cheap deal basically. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Dr. Funkbot Star Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2001 Posts: 8188 Location: Eagle Rock
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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pjiddy wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | RI Laker wrote: | There is just a lack of centers right now. |
Because teams no longer play that way. Most modern bigs play on the perimeter. |
Well with Embiid (and possibly Ayton and Bagley) we could be entering a center renaissance. Embiid could have a Shaq-like effect on the rest of the league where every team overpays a big man that can at least body Embiid up. |
Yup, get ready for the Brad Millers and the Ostertags of the world to make some cash. _________________ R.I.P. Doc Buss |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Dr. Funkbot wrote: | activeverb wrote: | Joe Pesci wrote: |
Slightly over $4 million left to use plus the Room Exception.
Yep. Now subtract Ennis, Zubac, Deng, and Nance and you have the 28 million I mentioned to offer James (or Cousins): |
Which brings you around to the old problem of how do you get rid of Deng without taking back salary? |
I think that a stretch/buyout agreement will be made during the offseason. No one will trade for him. Likely he will agree to a buyout at slightly less than he is owed for the remaining 2 years on his deal and then we will stretch that amount.
However, if we don't want to do the 2 FA plan we can wait one more year to stretch/buyout his deal in the summer of 2019 which would save us a lot of dead money and hopefully allow us to keep JR an JC. |
Sure, we can always buy him out and stretch him. But that counts against the cap. Even with a buyout and stretch, you're probably talking about 7 to 9 million against the cap. |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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Laker's Fan wrote: | activeverb wrote: | Joe Pesci wrote: |
Slightly over $4 million left to use plus the Room Exception.
Yep. Now subtract Ennis, Zubac, Deng, and Nance and you have the 28 million I mentioned to offer James (or Cousins): |
Which brings you around to the old problem of how do you get rid of Deng without taking back salary? |
Which is actually the how do they deal Deng for less salary and/or for similar salary in multiple pieces that are easier to turn around and move. One of the biggest challenges in moving Deng's deal is the fact that it's so much money for one player. We can do a deal like Sacramento did when they traded Webber to Philly. |
Sure, there's that challenge. However, I think the bigger challenge is that teams are going to want a significant pay off to take his contract. If you're willing to give up enough good young players, you can buy cap space somehow. |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | pjiddy wrote: | i don't know why anyone bothers imagining a team with Lebron/George/Cousins. What do we need DMC's scoring for with Lebron and PG? All you need at that point is a rim protector, ideally one that can switch and knock down a jumpshot. Getting Cousins just invites another OKC-type nightmare. Who's going to be the Chris Bosh of that trio who gives up his scoring numbers and instincts to be a glue guy? PG is clearly not happy as that guy in OKC. It's not gonna be Lebron. Do you really see Cousins being that guy? And at that point, why are you paying him 30 million? |
At that point you find a way to convince Noel to join the team somehow on a cheap deal basically. |
I don't see that happening. Noel has been waiting to be paid for years. I think his number one priority is going to where he'll get the biggest paycheck. I think the last thing he want is to take less money to support a bunch of stars |
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