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Liger24Zero
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 Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="RG73"] | SuperboyReformed wrote: | | non-player zealot wrote: |
the whole defense thing is always a red flag for me for someone trying to divert the conversation away from a gifted offensive player. it all centers around this idea that defense is unselfish and offense is selfish. there's a reason why one of the greatest defensive/rebounders (rodman) was also one of the worst nba level offensive players ever. it's a trade off. |
No, it centers on the fact that the game is played on two sides of the floor. There can be a trade-off, sure. Rodman was a great defender when he wasn't cherry picking for rebounds, and he was a non-existent threat on offense. IT is a great scorer, but a total liability on the other side of the floor as we have now all witnessed first hand.
I'm not sure what the problem is here really? Some players are great on both ends of the floor and they're naturally going to be ranked higher than guys that are not by most people. |
Pretty much this.  |
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non-player zealot
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Liger24Zero"] | RG73 wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | | NOT non-player zealot wrote: |
the whole defense thing is always a red flag for me for someone trying to divert the conversation away from a gifted offensive player. it all centers around this idea that defense is unselfish and offense is selfish. there's a reason why one of the greatest defensive/rebounders (rodman) was also one of the worst nba level offensive players ever. it's a trade off. |
No, it centers on the fact that the game is played on two sides of the floor. There can be a trade-off, sure. Rodman was a great defender when he wasn't cherry picking for rebounds, and he was a non-existent threat on offense. IT is a great scorer, but a total liability on the other side of the floor as we have now all witnessed first hand.
I'm not sure what the problem is here really? Some players are great on both ends of the floor and they're naturally going to be ranked higher than guys that are not by most people. |
Pretty much this. |
You got the quotes mixed up there. Superboy posted that quote which RG73 replied to.
Citing your post count was my bad. I realize I should've merely ignored that fandom pureness accusation. Nothing personal, all of us should do that, including you. Someone stomping up and down trying to prove their fandom for Player X or Team Y never makes for good reading. No one really cares at the end of the day, ya know. Call me what you will, just don't call me late for supper. Peace!
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:15 am Post subject: |
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Dwyane Wade at #22
Even though his career is familiar to us, there are a few interesting tidbits. I didn't realize Wade was a shot blocker. |
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Liger24Zero
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| Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="non-player zealot"] | Liger24Zero wrote: | | RG73 wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | | NOT non-player zealot wrote: |
the whole defense thing is always a red flag for me for someone trying to divert the conversation away from a gifted offensive player. it all centers around this idea that defense is unselfish and offense is selfish. there's a reason why one of the greatest defensive/rebounders (rodman) was also one of the worst nba level offensive players ever. it's a trade off. |
No, it centers on the fact that the game is played on two sides of the floor. There can be a trade-off, sure. Rodman was a great defender when he wasn't cherry picking for rebounds, and he was a non-existent threat on offense. IT is a great scorer, but a total liability on the other side of the floor as we have now all witnessed first hand.
I'm not sure what the problem is here really? Some players are great on both ends of the floor and they're naturally going to be ranked higher than guys that are not by most people. |
Pretty much this. |
You got the quotes mixed up there. Superboy posted that quote which RG73 replied to.
Citing your post count was my bad. I realize I should've merely ignored that fandom pureness accusation. Nothing personal, all of us should do that, including you. Someone stomping up and down trying to prove their fandom for Player X or Team Y never makes for good reading. No one really cares at the end of the day, ya know. Call me what you will, just don't call me late for supper. Peace! |
No, it's more like RG73 got the quote mixed up after quoting Superboy and then it screwed up my post when I quoted RG73.
First off, I never went to search any of your posts.
Secondly, like I said previously I was a lurker on this site for about eight years now and when you made your first post in this thread, I immediately recognized your username (which no one else has on this forum) and thought to myself "Why is this poster always defending Magic Johnson?".
Then I quoted your post and gave you a simple question, which you still haven't answered yet.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:56 am Post subject: |
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Chris Paul at #21
This has an interesting discussion of his passing style compared to the other elite point guards. |
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Liger24Zero
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Don't know why, but I have a feeling that Jordan, Kareem and Lebron are probably going to be in the top 3.  |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Liger24Zero wrote: | | Don't know why, but I have a feeling that Jordan, Kareem and Lebron are probably going to be in the top 3. |
I don’t really care about this guy’s rankings, other than just as something to muse about. If I remember correctly, this guy is from LA and has some connection to the Lakers. He would have been a fan through Kobe’s career. His Twitter handle is Elgee or something like that, which makes me wonder whether he is a member of this board.
The real value of his list is the discussion and breakdown of historic players. For example, I had never really thought about how Larry Bird’s career had different phases. What he says is consistent with my recollection, but I’d never processed it that way. For younger fans, this series would be a great way of getting a feel for what players were really like. The cold statistical record can never convey that. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:05 am Post subject: |
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Steve Nash at #19
The interesting part of the discussion is Nash's defense. He was a poor defender, but he found ways to contribute something on defense. I never would have put him in the Isaiah Thomas category. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Dirk Nowitzki at #18
I found the analysis interesting, given that I never really paid that much attention to Dirk in his prime. I never focused on the fact that he was a poor passer, but when I think back on it, I sure don't remember Dirk being much of a passing threat when doubled. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:20 am Post subject: |
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Kobe Bryant at #14
This will infuriate some people, but I don't care so much about his ratings, other than as food for thought. His analysis of Kobe's game is pretty accurate. As I've said elsewhere on multiple occasions, the biggest threat to Kobe's legacy is that analytics will wreck his reputation as an elite defensive player.
If you care about the ratings, it looks like his top eight will be Kareem, Russell, Snaq, Hakeem, MJ, Duncan, Lebron, and one more. I'm guessing Durant, but it could be Garnett. There is one open spot in the mid-20s, and I'm guessing that it will be Baylor. |
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Kobe Bryant at #14
This will infuriate some people, but I don't care so much about his ratings, other than as food for thought. His analysis of Kobe's game is pretty accurate. As I've said elsewhere on multiple occasions, the biggest threat to Kobe's legacy is that analytics will wreck his reputation as an elite defensive player.
If you care about the ratings, it looks like his top eight will be Kareem, Russell, Snaq, Hakeem, MJ, Duncan, Lebron, and one more. I'm guessing Durant, but it could be Garnett. There is one open spot in the mid-20s, and I'm guessing that it will be Baylor. |
Wonder where Kidd will land. |
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Liger24Zero
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Kobe Bryant at #14
This will infuriate some people, but I don't care so much about his ratings, other than as food for thought. His analysis of Kobe's game is pretty accurate. As I've said elsewhere on multiple occasions, the biggest threat to Kobe's legacy is that analytics will wreck his reputation as an elite defensive player.
If you care about the ratings, it looks like his top eight will be Kareem, Russell, Snaq, Hakeem, MJ, Duncan, Lebron, and one more. I'm guessing Durant, but it could be Garnett. There is one open spot in the mid-20s, and I'm guessing that it will be Baylor. |
At least Kobe's in the top 15.
I'll take it.  |
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Kobe Bryant at #14
This will infuriate some people, but I don't care so much about his ratings, other than as food for thought. His analysis of Kobe's game is pretty accurate. As I've said elsewhere on multiple occasions, the biggest threat to Kobe's legacy is that analytics will wreck his reputation as an elite defensive player.
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Don't think people really take Kobe's defense into account when talking about his legacy. Similar to Magic. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Kobe Bryant at #14
This will infuriate some people, but I don't care so much about his ratings, other than as food for thought. His analysis of Kobe's game is pretty accurate. As I've said elsewhere on multiple occasions, the biggest threat to Kobe's legacy is that analytics will wreck his reputation as an elite defensive player.
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Don't think people really take Kobe's defense into account when talking about his legacy. Similar to Magic. |
To some extent, that's true. Offense tends to be more important in the public perception. But one of the pillars of the argument for Kobe has been his reputation as an elite defender. So when we have someone like this guy taking an analytical approach to defense, Magic slips to 10 and Kobe slips to 14.
As time goes by, this sort of analysis will only become more common. Players will almost always react differently because of the Nolan Ryan effect (i.e., that players are more impressed by degree of difficulty than by effectiveness). Analytics have already changed the way that the game is played, to the extent that Kobe's style of play is obsolete only a decade after his peak. If one team takes difficult, contested two pointers and makes 45% (which is an impressive percentage), and the other team takes three pointers and makes 38%, who wins?
Memories fade, but stats last forever. There are a number of players who are going to take a hit from analytics. Kobe is at the top of the list, but MJ, Magic, and others will be affected, too. |
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Dr. Funkbot
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Kobe Bryant at #14
This will infuriate some people, but I don't care so much about his ratings, other than as food for thought. His analysis of Kobe's game is pretty accurate. As I've said elsewhere on multiple occasions, the biggest threat to Kobe's legacy is that analytics will wreck his reputation as an elite defensive player.
If you care about the ratings, it looks like his top eight will be Kareem, Russell, Snaq, Hakeem, MJ, Duncan, Lebron, and one more. I'm guessing Durant, but it could be Garnett. There is one open spot in the mid-20s, and I'm guessing that it will be Baylor. |
Kobe was great and he got 5 rings. He was a tough SOB. But yes he took too many needlessly difficult shots and should have passed the ball more. His shooting percentage could have been up there with MJ's if he had a better shot selection.
But those rings matter and this analysis is placing him around guys who never won a singe ring like Karl Malone and Sir Charles. I think that is wrong and I think this guy is a bozo.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Funkbot wrote: | | But those rings matter and this analysis is placing him around guys who never won a singe ring like Karl Malone and Sir Charles. I think that is wrong and I think this guy is a bozo. |
Eh. This guy has a stated methodology. You may not find it persuasive, but he's consistent about it. He gives no credit for rings, awards, etc. I do, and so do you. We would rank the players differently than this guy.
Anyway, the player analyses are the interesting part. The rankings are just a discussion piece. |
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richsmith
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| That's about as intelligent, accurate, and in-depth a summation of Kobe's strengths and weaknesses as I've seen. Kobe's general reputation as a defender isn't as strong as some seem to believe. He was elite during the first threepeat but subsequently became lax and disinterested in the dirty work on the defensive side of the ball, although there were always enough highlight plays and times when he'd lock a rival down to keep the shine on. Phil even mentioned in The Last Season that he'd fallen off considerably, and that was as early as 2004 I believe. |
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Kobe Bryant at #14
This will infuriate some people, but I don't care so much about his ratings, other than as food for thought. His analysis of Kobe's game is pretty accurate. As I've said elsewhere on multiple occasions, the biggest threat to Kobe's legacy is that analytics will wreck his reputation as an elite defensive player.
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Don't think people really take Kobe's defense into account when talking about his legacy. Similar to Magic. |
To some extent, that's true. Offense tends to be more important in the public perception. But one of the pillars of the argument for Kobe has been his reputation as an elite defender. So when we have someone like this guy taking an analytical approach to defense, Magic slips to 10 and Kobe slips to 14.
As time goes by, this sort of analysis will only become more common. Players will almost always react differently because of the Nolan Ryan effect (i.e., that players are more impressed by degree of difficulty than by effectiveness). Analytics have already changed the way that the game is played, to the extent that Kobe's style of play is obsolete only a decade after his peak. If one team takes difficult, contested two pointers and makes 45% (which is an impressive percentage), and the other team takes three pointers and makes 38%, who wins?
Memories fade, but stats last forever. There are a number of players who are going to take a hit from analytics. Kobe is at the top of the list, but MJ, Magic, and others will be affected, too. |
I think video of Kobe will always amaze people, as do Magic highlights. Guys like Jerry West or Russell, who used to enter in GOAT conversations, don't hold up on video. It's also why a guy like T-Mac will always be talked about, despite not having much of a resume. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Kobe Bryant at #14
This will infuriate some people, but I don't care so much about his ratings, other than as food for thought. His analysis of Kobe's game is pretty accurate. As I've said elsewhere on multiple occasions, the biggest threat to Kobe's legacy is that analytics will wreck his reputation as an elite defensive player.
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Don't think people really take Kobe's defense into account when talking about his legacy. Similar to Magic. |
To some extent, that's true. Offense tends to be more important in the public perception. But one of the pillars of the argument for Kobe has been his reputation as an elite defender. So when we have someone like this guy taking an analytical approach to defense, Magic slips to 10 and Kobe slips to 14.
As time goes by, this sort of analysis will only become more common. Players will almost always react differently because of the Nolan Ryan effect (i.e., that players are more impressed by degree of difficulty than by effectiveness). Analytics have already changed the way that the game is played, to the extent that Kobe's style of play is obsolete only a decade after his peak. If one team takes difficult, contested two pointers and makes 45% (which is an impressive percentage), and the other team takes three pointers and makes 38%, who wins?
Memories fade, but stats last forever. There are a number of players who are going to take a hit from analytics. Kobe is at the top of the list, but MJ, Magic, and others will be affected, too. |
I think video of Kobe will always amaze people, as do Magic highlights. Guys like Jerry West or Russell, who used to enter in GOAT conversations, don't hold up on video. It's also why a guy like T-Mac will always be talked about, despite not having much of a resume. |
Bill Russell is in the goat conversation, at least as much as anybody not named Michael Jordan.
I don't recall Jerry West ever being in the goat conversation.
I hardly ever hear anyone talking about T-Mac.
So I'm not sure where these opinions of yours are coming from |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | Bill Russell is in the goat conversation, at least as much as anybody not named Michael Jordan.
I don't recall Jerry West ever being in the goat conversation.
I hardly ever hear anyone talking about T-Mac.
So I'm not sure where these opinions of yours are coming from |
He’s responding to my comment that memories fade, but stats last forever. It’s a fair point. To some extent, video will keep the memories of guys like Kobe and TMac alive. Guys like Russell and West don’t have a strong video record.
Still, the modern sports fan has gotten used to seeing players through the lens of metrics. That’s especially true in baseball, but it is increasingly true in basketball. It helps that the metrics have slowly improved and have become more credible. We don’t talk about PER much anymore.
So I accept the idea that Kobe won’t be remembered just as a compilation of stats. Nevertheless, as time goes by, the perceptions of players’ careers will be shaped by metrics. How does Johnnie Doe, superstar of the 2030s, compare to MJ or Kobe or Lebron or Steph? Well, what do the metrics tell us? |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:56 am Post subject: |
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Kevin Durant at #26
This surprised me a bit. I was expecting Elgin Baylor in this slot, because it is the last of the middle slots in this guy's rankings. All that is left is 31-40 and 1-8. Then again, I regard Elgin as massively overrated, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised.
The write up focuses on Durant's passing and defense, and I agree with pretty much all of it. For all of the hype, I view Durant as something of an underachiever, closer to Carmelo Anthony than to Larry Bird. He's an exceptional shooter, but he doesn't impact the game when he isn't shooting. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Kevin Durant at #26
This surprised me a bit. I was expecting Elgin Baylor in this slot, because it is the last of the middle slots in this guy's rankings. All that is left is 31-40 and 1-8. Then again, I regard Elgin as massively overrated, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised.
The write up focuses on Durant's passing and defense, and I agree with pretty much all of it. For all of the hype, I view Durant as something of an underachiever, closer to Carmelo Anthony than to Larry Bird. He's an exceptional shooter, but he doesn't impact the game when he isn't shooting. |
Until recently, when he's become a defensive disruptor
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | Bill Russell is in the goat conversation, at least as much as anybody not named Michael Jordan.
I don't recall Jerry West ever being in the goat conversation.
I hardly ever hear anyone talking about T-Mac.
So I'm not sure where these opinions of yours are coming from |
He’s responding to my comment that memories fade, but stats last forever. It’s a fair point. To some extent, video will keep the memories of guys like Kobe and TMac alive. Guys like Russell and West don’t have a strong video record.
Still, the modern sports fan has gotten used to seeing players through the lens of metrics. That’s especially true in baseball, but it is increasingly true in basketball. It helps that the metrics have slowly improved and have become more credible. We don’t talk about PER much anymore.
So I accept the idea that Kobe won’t be remembered just as a compilation of stats. Nevertheless, as time goes by, the perceptions of players’ careers will be shaped by metrics. How does Johnnie Doe, superstar of the 2030s, compare to MJ or Kobe or Lebron or Steph? Well, what do the metrics tell us? |
Sure, videos are better and more common today, so they'll have more of an impact than the limited stuff available for the geezers. That said, the number of fans interested in old players is fairly small, particularly beyond the GOAT short list (this very thread shows that).
There really aren't huge numbers of fans who are interested in looking at videos of old players they feel no emotional connection to, and I've never sense that cherry-picked videos in support of an argument (which is how most videos are used) have much of an impact. |
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Kevin Durant at #26
This surprised me a bit. I was expecting Elgin Baylor in this slot, because it is the last of the middle slots in this guy's rankings. All that is left is 31-40 and 1-8. Then again, I regard Elgin as massively overrated, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised.
The write up focuses on Durant's passing and defense, and I agree with pretty much all of it. For all of the hype, I view Durant as something of an underachiever, closer to Carmelo Anthony than to Larry Bird. He's an exceptional shooter, but he doesn't impact the game when he isn't shooting. |
Until recently, when he's become a defensive disruptor |
He moves to Silicon Valley and becomes a "disruptor". |
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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lol at kobe at 14. i guess 1 2 3 is going to be russell lebron and mj, lol.
also, the misquoting was pretty funny. i myself was confused what had happened until i realized the quoting was off.
re defense and scoring, just to bump that back...
all elite scorers get unfairly criticized for their defense. except mj. and mj's defense is way too hyped. he was great, but as any other elite scorer, he had to sacrifice it often for his offense. just like kobe, except kobe is not considered as great as mj. but reality, kobe was the best at defense if he focused on it, see the olympics. all these guys like dwight, ben wallace, DJ, rodman, etc. they are great at defense BECAUSE they suck on offense. if they were great on offense, they wouldn't be great on defense. that's how it works. the hype stuff makes people think you can be elite at both, and that is very very rare, not even mj did that. if anyone, maybe wilt was truly elite at both. russell...only elite at defense, not offense, at least not wilt level.
as far as hype, when a guy like lebron starts gaining a defensive reputation like he did after joining miami, that's just simply hype. he did that to obscure the fact that hes not that good on offense. like a magicians sleight of hand. all these guys who are trying to be known for defense are doing it because they cant be the dominant offense.
defense, rebounding, hustling, it's just a matter of effort, working hard. it's way easier than shooting. to shoot like lillard or curry, good luck, nobody can do that...might as well focus on defense. but that doesn't make defense better. it's worse. dime a dozen. anyone can become a great defender very easily. nobody can shoot like the elites, that takes luck, a ton of hard work and really precise hard work. not just jumping up and grabbing a rebound, which is simple. shooting 25 foot threes is crazy hard compared to that. even westbrook, trying to get all those triple doubles...it's allows him to stand out in something other than scoring because he will never score like kyrie or curry or lillard. so he has to do something else if he wants to be in the conversation.
it's like that damned block lebron got on iggy. why the big deal? yea it's a good play, but just seconds later kyrie dropped the real bomb on curry. that was a FAR more important play, if the hype wasnt so strong with lebron.
i dont mean to really say its so easy anyone can do it literally. but essentially thats what it is. scoring, rebounding, defense...they are not equal. scoring is WAY better and valuable. you dont win a freaking game by getting more rebounds. and defense doesn't win championships, although its a fun thing to say. you know what wins championships? scoring more points than the loser. yes there are more complex correlations regarding the method of getting points, but they are all highly variable depending on the players and strategies, so it doesn't really matter in this context. |
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