***Minnesota Timberwolves vs Los Angeles Lakers - 12/25/17 Christmas Day Game***
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PHILosophize
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:26 pm    Post subject:

VicXLakers wrote:
Spectrum smelling skunk in the studio...Snoop must be around


send me some weed bro
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:26 pm    Post subject:

Anyways good games from Kuzma and Hart at least.

2 guys that can actually play.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:27 pm    Post subject:

The_Dynasty24 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
JC is a scorer, if he's not scoring well he doesn't bring much to the table. Lonzo impacts the entire offense so much more, I don't think it's comparable. Lonzo on a bad shooting night still makes the Lakers better, the same can't be said for JC.

And I'm not even trying to hate on JC, he just doesn't have the same feel for the game that Lonzo does.


how do you post this when the guy just recorded 7 Assists, 6 Rebounds and 4 Steals?
JC doesn't typically have that many assists though, and as far as I can remember several of his assists came after he pounded the ball for a significant amount of the shot clock and needed a bailout dump off pass.

Did you think JC played well today? Regardless of his assist total, it seemed to me like he was being a ball stopper out there. If you had a different point of view I'm open to listening, not trying to blindly hate on him.


If he had shot over 50% from the field, I think it would have been an excellent game. Just for comparison....do you feel on most nights that most of Lonzo's assists actually create the scoring opportunity for his teammates? I would guess...and its truly a low educated guess that Lonzo may average 1.5-2.5 assists a game that actually create the scoring opportunity. The vast majority are a simple chest pass to a guy on the wing, and he knocks down the shot. That is fine...but if we are going to pick apart JC's assists....then they have to be compared to something.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:27 pm    Post subject:

BizLA wrote:
It's not Randle's fault tho. It's Jim and Mitch. Everyone knew Randle would be nothing but a 15 & 10 guy at BEST.

Shoulda drafted Sauce Castillo, I always said.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:29 pm    Post subject:

BizLA wrote:
Guys like Kuzma Ball & Hart are the type of players you need to win.

Not Randle
Not Clarkson.


No, they arenít winning anything
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:31 pm    Post subject:

BizLA wrote:
It's not Randle's fault tho. It's Jim and Mitch. Everyone knew Randle would be nothing but a 15 & 10 guy at BEST.


cause those are so easy to find...btw, his PER 36 numbers are actually 20 & 10.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:31 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
JC is a scorer, if he's not scoring well he doesn't bring much to the table. Lonzo impacts the entire offense so much more, I don't think it's comparable. Lonzo on a bad shooting night still makes the Lakers better, the same can't be said for JC.

And I'm not even trying to hate on JC, he just doesn't have the same feel for the game that Lonzo does.


how do you post this when the guy just recorded 7 Assists, 6 Rebounds and 4 Steals?
JC doesn't typically have that many assists though, and as far as I can remember several of his assists came after he pounded the ball for a significant amount of the shot clock and needed a bailout dump off pass.

Did you think JC played well today? Regardless of his assist total, it seemed to me like he was being a ball stopper out there. If you had a different point of view I'm open to listening, not trying to blindly hate on him.


If he had shot over 50% from the field, I think it would have been an excellent game. Just for comparison....do you feel on most nights that most of Lonzo's assists actually create the scoring opportunity for his teammates? I would guess...and its truly a low educated guess that Lonzo may average 1.5-2.5 assists a game that actually create the scoring opportunity. The vast majority are a simple chest pass to a guy on the wing, and he knocks down the shot. That is fine...but if we are going to pick apart JC's assists....then they have to be compared to something.


Nah, he makes a lot of high difficulty passes that players can't handle... he's dumbed down his passing game to fit the skill set... think of how one might play if Worthy was the receiver versus Kwame. Anyone can see the vision and the quickness is there... occasionally he makes a lazy pass, but he has an uncanny skill on many of his passes... Not as good as Magic, but still excellent.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:34 pm    Post subject:

caruso, ennis, brewer

lol
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:35 pm    Post subject:

PHILosophize wrote:
VicXLakers wrote:
Spectrum smelling skunk in the studio...Snoop must be around


send me some weed bro


some day that won't be against the law...in the meantime we need to get rid of the anti science chump in the WH
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:35 pm    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
JC is a scorer, if he's not scoring well he doesn't bring much to the table. Lonzo impacts the entire offense so much more, I don't think it's comparable. Lonzo on a bad shooting night still makes the Lakers better, the same can't be said for JC.

And I'm not even trying to hate on JC, he just doesn't have the same feel for the game that Lonzo does.


how do you post this when the guy just recorded 7 Assists, 6 Rebounds and 4 Steals?
JC doesn't typically have that many assists though, and as far as I can remember several of his assists came after he pounded the ball for a significant amount of the shot clock and needed a bailout dump off pass.

Did you think JC played well today? Regardless of his assist total, it seemed to me like he was being a ball stopper out there. If you had a different point of view I'm open to listening, not trying to blindly hate on him.


If he had shot over 50% from the field, I think it would have been an excellent game. Just for comparison....do you feel on most nights that most of Lonzo's assists actually create the scoring opportunity for his teammates? I would guess...and its truly a low educated guess that Lonzo may average 1.5-2.5 assists a game that actually create the scoring opportunity. The vast majority are a simple chest pass to a guy on the wing, and he knocks down the shot. That is fine...but if we are going to pick apart JC's assists....then they have to be compared to something.


Nah, he makes a lot of high difficulty passes that players can't handle... he's dumbed down his passing game to fit the skill set... think of how one might play if Worthy was the receiver versus Kwame. Anyone can see the vision and the quickness is there... occasionally he makes a lazy pass, but he has an uncanny skill on many of his passes... Not as good as Magic, but still excellent.


I honestly feel like you making a different point....it was not to suggest Lonzo is not a good passer or what his limits are in passing....it is only to suggest if you tally his assists, very few are of the variety that they create the scoring opportunity.....and I am only bringing up in comparison to JC getting a bail out here and there diminishing his assists.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:35 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
JC is a scorer, if he's not scoring well he doesn't bring much to the table. Lonzo impacts the entire offense so much more, I don't think it's comparable. Lonzo on a bad shooting night still makes the Lakers better, the same can't be said for JC.

And I'm not even trying to hate on JC, he just doesn't have the same feel for the game that Lonzo does.


how do you post this when the guy just recorded 7 Assists, 6 Rebounds and 4 Steals?
JC doesn't typically have that many assists though, and as far as I can remember several of his assists came after he pounded the ball for a significant amount of the shot clock and needed a bailout dump off pass.

Did you think JC played well today? Regardless of his assist total, it seemed to me like he was being a ball stopper out there. If you had a different point of view I'm open to listening, not trying to blindly hate on him.


If he had shot over 50% from the field, I think it would have been an excellent game. Just for comparison....do you feel on most nights that most of Lonzo's assists actually create the scoring opportunity for his teammates? I would guess...and its truly a low educated guess that Lonzo may average 1.5-2.5 assists a game that actually create the scoring opportunity. The vast majority are a simple chest pass to a guy on the wing, and he knocks down the shot. That is fine...but if we are going to pick apart JC's assists....then they have to be compared to something.


Well if we're comparing to Lonzo, yes I think those are much better plays. I agree that probably half of Lonzo's assists are from quickly swinging the ball to an open man, but I feel like those are much better assists than JC pounding the ball, driving into traffic, and then when he gets stuck having to luck into being able to dump the ball off. Swinging the ball to the open man doesn't make him a creative passer, and I agree it's something many PGs can do. The problem is JC doesn't.

And I don't even think it's just Lonzo's assists numbers. The way he throws the ball forward off rebounds ignites fastbreak points, even if he doesn't get an assist registered for him. So yes, I do believe Lonzo creates so many more scoring opportunities than JC, and he also runs the offense so much more smoothly.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:40 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
JC is a scorer, if he's not scoring well he doesn't bring much to the table. Lonzo impacts the entire offense so much more, I don't think it's comparable. Lonzo on a bad shooting night still makes the Lakers better, the same can't be said for JC.

And I'm not even trying to hate on JC, he just doesn't have the same feel for the game that Lonzo does.


how do you post this when the guy just recorded 7 Assists, 6 Rebounds and 4 Steals?
JC doesn't typically have that many assists though, and as far as I can remember several of his assists came after he pounded the ball for a significant amount of the shot clock and needed a bailout dump off pass.

Did you think JC played well today? Regardless of his assist total, it seemed to me like he was being a ball stopper out there. If you had a different point of view I'm open to listening, not trying to blindly hate on him.


If he had shot over 50% from the field, I think it would have been an excellent game. Just for comparison....do you feel on most nights that most of Lonzo's assists actually create the scoring opportunity for his teammates? I would guess...and its truly a low educated guess that Lonzo may average 1.5-2.5 assists a game that actually create the scoring opportunity. The vast majority are a simple chest pass to a guy on the wing, and he knocks down the shot. That is fine...but if we are going to pick apart JC's assists....then they have to be compared to something.


Nah, he makes a lot of high difficulty passes that players can't handle... he's dumbed down his passing game to fit the skill set... think of how one might play if Worthy was the receiver versus Kwame. Anyone can see the vision and the quickness is there... occasionally he makes a lazy pass, but he has an uncanny skill on many of his passes... Not as good as Magic, but still excellent.


I honestly feel like you making a different point....it was not to suggest Lonzo is not a good passer or what his limits are in passing....it is only to suggest if you tally his assists, very few are of the variety that they create the scoring opportunity.....and I am only bringing up in comparison to JC getting a bail out here and there diminishing his assists.


I'm saying that for Lonzo a 7 assist game is almost a disappointment... a function of poor shooting, lack of minutes, fumbling the ball out of bounds... on a competent team... he's a ten assist average no doubt. With Clarkson, a 7 assist game is a career highlight... he had one all last season. I think your point is fair that Clarkson did some good things tonight, but his mistakes came at inopportune times and sadly cost us the game.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:41 pm    Post subject:

The_Dynasty24 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
JC is a scorer, if he's not scoring well he doesn't bring much to the table. Lonzo impacts the entire offense so much more, I don't think it's comparable. Lonzo on a bad shooting night still makes the Lakers better, the same can't be said for JC.

And I'm not even trying to hate on JC, he just doesn't have the same feel for the game that Lonzo does.


how do you post this when the guy just recorded 7 Assists, 6 Rebounds and 4 Steals?
JC doesn't typically have that many assists though, and as far as I can remember several of his assists came after he pounded the ball for a significant amount of the shot clock and needed a bailout dump off pass.


Did you think JC played well today? Regardless of his assist total, it seemed to me like he was being a ball stopper out there. If you had a different point of view I'm open to listening, not trying to blindly hate on him.


If he had shot over 50% from the field, I think it would have been an excellent game. Just for comparison....do you feel on most nights that most of Lonzo's assists actually create the scoring opportunity for his teammates? I would guess...and its truly a low educated guess that Lonzo may average 1.5-2.5 assists a game that actually create the scoring opportunity. The vast majority are a simple chest pass to a guy on the wing, and he knocks down the shot. That is fine...but if we are going to pick apart JC's assists....then they have to be compared to something.


Well if we're comparing to Lonzo, yes I think those are much better plays. I agree that probably half of Lonzo's assists are from quickly swinging the ball to an open man, but I feel like those are much better assists than JC pounding the ball, driving into traffic, and then when he gets stuck having to luck into being able to dump the ball off. Swinging the ball to the open man doesn't make him a creative passer, and I agree it's something many PGs can do. The problem is JC doesn't.

And I don't even think it's just Lonzo's assists numbers. The way he throws the ball forward off rebounds ignites fastbreak points, even if he doesn't get an assist registered for him. So yes, I do believe Lonzo creates so many more scoring opportunities than JC, and he also runs the offense so much more smoothly.


and yet Clarkson has an offensive rating of 106 and Ball's is only 92....that is black and white factual evidence that the offense is not nearly as productive with Ball on the court in comparison to JC.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:43 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
people taking shots at Clarkson....he definitely did not shoot well @ 35%...but if Lonzo shoots 35% and puts up 17 Points, 6 Rebounds, 7 Assists, 4 Steals with only 2 TO's....LG would mostly be celebratory


I think that's true.

The difference is Ball is 19 and has been in the league for 31 games. Clarkson is 25 and has been in the league four years.

With Clarkson, we're frustrated by the poor shooting and gunning because history tells us that will continue. The 4 steals are less exciting because history tells us that's something he only does once or twice a season.


Last edited by activeverb on Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:45 pm    Post subject:

it should also be noted that while Ball has an excellent Assist% of 29.1....which means on 29.1% of the plays he is on the court and a teammate scores, he is responsible for the assist. Guess who is 2nd? JC has an Assist% of 23 which is very respectable....and not far below Ball....even though JC is not considered a great passer.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:47 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
it should also be noted that while Ball has an excellent Assist% of 29.1....which means on 29.1% of the plays he is on the court and a teammate scores, he is responsible for the assist. Guess who is 2nd? JC has an Assist% of 23 which is very respectable....and not far below Ball....even though JC is not considered a great passer.


JC's passing has improved... he's fine where he is as a sixth man... it's when he has to run the entire show that he's lacking.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:57 pm    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
it should also be noted that while Ball has an excellent Assist% of 29.1....which means on 29.1% of the plays he is on the court and a teammate scores, he is responsible for the assist. Guess who is 2nd? JC has an Assist% of 23 which is very respectable....and not far below Ball....even though JC is not considered a great passer.


JC's passing has improved... he's fine where he is as a sixth man... it's when he has to run the entire show that he's lacking.


we can disagree...and not trying to get the last word...so if you respond, i will bite my tongue to prove it .....but offensively speaking, I do not feel there is a shred of statistical evidence to support your statement. The offense clearly is more productive with JC on the court, hence the much higher offensive rating....and when you compare their production on a Per 36 basis...JC has a couple less APG, but almost 2.5x more points and less turnovers per game. I cannot help but believe people are seeing what they desire to see.....btw, I am not calling for JC to start over Ball or anything like that...I know we are developing Ball for the future....my statements are only in defense of the suggestion that Ball currently outperforms Clarkson on the basketball court.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:04 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
JC is a scorer, if he's not scoring well he doesn't bring much to the table. Lonzo impacts the entire offense so much more, I don't think it's comparable. Lonzo on a bad shooting night still makes the Lakers better, the same can't be said for JC.

And I'm not even trying to hate on JC, he just doesn't have the same feel for the game that Lonzo does.


how do you post this when the guy just recorded 7 Assists, 6 Rebounds and 4 Steals?
JC doesn't typically have that many assists though, and as far as I can remember several of his assists came after he pounded the ball for a significant amount of the shot clock and needed a bailout dump off pass.


Did you think JC played well today? Regardless of his assist total, it seemed to me like he was being a ball stopper out there. If you had a different point of view I'm open to listening, not trying to blindly hate on him.


If he had shot over 50% from the field, I think it would have been an excellent game. Just for comparison....do you feel on most nights that most of Lonzo's assists actually create the scoring opportunity for his teammates? I would guess...and its truly a low educated guess that Lonzo may average 1.5-2.5 assists a game that actually create the scoring opportunity. The vast majority are a simple chest pass to a guy on the wing, and he knocks down the shot. That is fine...but if we are going to pick apart JC's assists....then they have to be compared to something.


Well if we're comparing to Lonzo, yes I think those are much better plays. I agree that probably half of Lonzo's assists are from quickly swinging the ball to an open man, but I feel like those are much better assists than JC pounding the ball, driving into traffic, and then when he gets stuck having to luck into being able to dump the ball off. Swinging the ball to the open man doesn't make him a creative passer, and I agree it's something many PGs can do. The problem is JC doesn't.

And I don't even think it's just Lonzo's assists numbers. The way he throws the ball forward off rebounds ignites fastbreak points, even if he doesn't get an assist registered for him. So yes, I do believe Lonzo creates so many more scoring opportunities than JC, and he also runs the offense so much more smoothly.


and yet Clarkson has an offensive rating of 106 and Ball's is only 92....that is black and white factual evidence that the offense is not nearly as productive with Ball on the court in comparison to JC.


Well I don't know if offensive rating is useful in this situation, because that's simply the amount of points produced per 100 possessions correct? Someone who scores at a higher clip would obviously have a higher rating, that doesn't tell us much about how good of a passer they are. I'm not arguing that Lonzo is a better scorer than JC; quite to the contrary, I realize JC is much much better in that regard. And that probably is where the big discrepancy in their offensive rating comes from. I still think Lonzo does a better job in terms of getting our offense going, and I would bet that the lineups with the highest net rating all feature Lonzo.

I'm not really sure what you're arguing for though, man. Are you trying to say JC runs the offense better than Lonzo does?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:07 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
it should also be noted that while Ball has an excellent Assist% of 29.1....which means on 29.1% of the plays he is on the court and a teammate scores, he is responsible for the assist. Guess who is 2nd? JC has an Assist% of 23 which is very respectable....and not far below Ball....even though JC is not considered a great passer.


JC's passing has improved... he's fine where he is as a sixth man... it's when he has to run the entire show that he's lacking.


we can disagree...and not trying to get the last word...so if you respond, i will bite my tongue to prove it .....but offensively speaking, I do not feel there is a shred of statistical evidence to support your statement. The offense clearly is more productive with JC on the court, hence the much higher offensive rating....and when you compare their production on a Per 36 basis...JC has a couple less APG, but almost 2.5x more points and less turnovers per game. I cannot help but believe people are seeing what they desire to see.....btw, I am not calling for JC to start over Ball or anything like that...I know we are developing Ball for the future....my statements are only in defense of the suggestion that Ball currently outperforms Clarkson on the basketball court.


Even if we can acknowledge that Clarkson is a better offensive player at this point in time (due to Ball's historically bad shooting), the Lakers are still a better team with Lonzo when you account for defense. In terms of RPM, Lonzo is at -0.44 and Clarkson is at -0.9. Would that be one piece of statistical evidence that proves Ball currently outperforms Clarkson on the court?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:09 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
it should also be noted that while Ball has an excellent Assist% of 29.1....which means on 29.1% of the plays he is on the court and a teammate scores, he is responsible for the assist. Guess who is 2nd? JC has an Assist% of 23 which is very respectable....and not far below Ball....even though JC is not considered a great passer.


JC's passing has improved... he's fine where he is as a sixth man... it's when he has to run the entire show that he's lacking.


we can disagree...and not trying to get the last word...so if you respond, i will bite my tongue to prove it .....but offensively speaking, I do not feel there is a shred of statistical evidence to support your statement. The offense clearly is more productive with JC on the court, hence the much higher offensive rating....and when you compare their production on a Per 36 basis...JC has a couple less APG, but almost 2.5x more points and less turnovers per game. I cannot help but believe people are seeing what they desire to see.....btw, I am not calling for JC to start over Ball or anything like that...I know we are developing Ball for the future....my statements are only in defense of the suggestion that Ball currently outperforms Clarkson on the basketball court.


I actually was ridiculed on this board for saying if you made Clarkson the focal point of the offense, that he'd do as well or outperform DLO. Almost universally ridiculed, so no, I'm not a complete hater of the guy.

I'm constantly frustrated by his mental lapses on defense... about forced shots... Zo does those too... but his are part of a learning curve imo, Clarkson comes more from frustration when his shot isn't falling. Nothing would have made me happier than for him to have one of those 50% shooting days and lead us to victory... but it didn't happen, and the trio of Brewer, KCP and Clarkson just ripped our hearts out today. Where I took issue was when you threw out those stats implying we had a double standard or a blindspot when it came to Zo. If Clarkson were 20 years old, and continuing to improve... I'd be super hyped with his performance... but as a four year vet... who has improved somewhat this year... but managed to fall back into his familiar patterns when his chance to shine came... he failed us. Who knows, maybe the next game... he leads us to a much needed win... but I can promise you if Zo played like this in four years... there would be an equally, if not worse narrative coming from me.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:09 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
JC is a scorer, if he's not scoring well he doesn't bring much to the table. Lonzo impacts the entire offense so much more, I don't think it's comparable. Lonzo on a bad shooting night still makes the Lakers better, the same can't be said for JC.

And I'm not even trying to hate on JC, he just doesn't have the same feel for the game that Lonzo does.


how do you post this when the guy just recorded 7 Assists, 6 Rebounds and 4 Steals?


If you look at JCs career numbers and the 3.5 years of data, he is just a scorer and doesn't bring much else to the table.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:13 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
JC is a scorer, if he's not scoring well he doesn't bring much to the table. Lonzo impacts the entire offense so much more, I don't think it's comparable. Lonzo on a bad shooting night still makes the Lakers better, the same can't be said for JC.

And I'm not even trying to hate on JC, he just doesn't have the same feel for the game that Lonzo does.


how do you post this when the guy just recorded 7 Assists, 6 Rebounds and 4 Steals?
JC doesn't typically have that many assists though, and as far as I can remember several of his assists came after he pounded the ball for a significant amount of the shot clock and needed a bailout dump off pass.


Did you think JC played well today? Regardless of his assist total, it seemed to me like he was being a ball stopper out there. If you had a different point of view I'm open to listening, not trying to blindly hate on him.


If he had shot over 50% from the field, I think it would have been an excellent game. Just for comparison....do you feel on most nights that most of Lonzo's assists actually create the scoring opportunity for his teammates? I would guess...and its truly a low educated guess that Lonzo may average 1.5-2.5 assists a game that actually create the scoring opportunity. The vast majority are a simple chest pass to a guy on the wing, and he knocks down the shot. That is fine...but if we are going to pick apart JC's assists....then they have to be compared to something.


Well if we're comparing to Lonzo, yes I think those are much better plays. I agree that probably half of Lonzo's assists are from quickly swinging the ball to an open man, but I feel like those are much better assists than JC pounding the ball, driving into traffic, and then when he gets stuck having to luck into being able to dump the ball off. Swinging the ball to the open man doesn't make him a creative passer, and I agree it's something many PGs can do. The problem is JC doesn't.

And I don't even think it's just Lonzo's assists numbers. The way he throws the ball forward off rebounds ignites fastbreak points, even if he doesn't get an assist registered for him. So yes, I do believe Lonzo creates so many more scoring opportunities than JC, and he also runs the offense so much more smoothly.


and yet Clarkson has an offensive rating of 106 and Ball's is only 92....that is black and white factual evidence that the offense is not nearly as productive with Ball on the court in comparison to JC.


Overall JC has a negative BPM and Lonzo has a positive BPM. So the Lakers do bettwr with Lonzo on the floor.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:18 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
it should also be noted that while Ball has an excellent Assist% of 29.1....which means on 29.1% of the plays he is on the court and a teammate scores, he is responsible for the assist. Guess who is 2nd? JC has an Assist% of 23 which is very respectable....and not far below Ball....even though JC is not considered a great passer.


Funny I had a completely different reaction to these numbers than you did.

For a starting point guard, an assist percentage of 29.1 is really nothing special. (Lonzo is right about average or slightly below average compared to other starting point guards.)

If anything these numbers just tell me we have a pretty stagnant offense and aren't moving the ball around enough.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:38 pm    Post subject:

PG13 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
JC is a scorer, if he's not scoring well he doesn't bring much to the table. Lonzo impacts the entire offense so much more, I don't think it's comparable. Lonzo on a bad shooting night still makes the Lakers better, the same can't be said for JC.

And I'm not even trying to hate on JC, he just doesn't have the same feel for the game that Lonzo does.


how do you post this when the guy just recorded 7 Assists, 6 Rebounds and 4 Steals?
JC doesn't typically have that many assists though, and as far as I can remember several of his assists came after he pounded the ball for a significant amount of the shot clock and needed a bailout dump off pass.


Did you think JC played well today? Regardless of his assist total, it seemed to me like he was being a ball stopper out there. If you had a different point of view I'm open to listening, not trying to blindly hate on him.


If he had shot over 50% from the field, I think it would have been an excellent game. Just for comparison....do you feel on most nights that most of Lonzo's assists actually create the scoring opportunity for his teammates? I would guess...and its truly a low educated guess that Lonzo may average 1.5-2.5 assists a game that actually create the scoring opportunity. The vast majority are a simple chest pass to a guy on the wing, and he knocks down the shot. That is fine...but if we are going to pick apart JC's assists....then they have to be compared to something.


Well if we're comparing to Lonzo, yes I think those are much better plays. I agree that probably half of Lonzo's assists are from quickly swinging the ball to an open man, but I feel like those are much better assists than JC pounding the ball, driving into traffic, and then when he gets stuck having to luck into being able to dump the ball off. Swinging the ball to the open man doesn't make him a creative passer, and I agree it's something many PGs can do. The problem is JC doesn't.

And I don't even think it's just Lonzo's assists numbers. The way he throws the ball forward off rebounds ignites fastbreak points, even if he doesn't get an assist registered for him. So yes, I do believe Lonzo creates so many more scoring opportunities than JC, and he also runs the offense so much more smoothly.


and yet Clarkson has an offensive rating of 106 and Ball's is only 92....that is black and white factual evidence that the offense is not nearly as productive with Ball on the court in comparison to JC.


Overall JC has a negative BPM and Lonzo has a positive BPM. So the Lakers do bettwr with Lonzo on the floor.


Basically, the offense has done better with Clarkson on the floor, and the defense has done worse. Which kind of makes sense since Ball has a crappy offensive rating and Clarkson has a crappy defensive rating.

When you look at both offensive and defensive rating, Ball is slightly better but neither is very good, which is not surprising for a 11-21 team.

But one more thing: Clarkson started off the season strong, but over the last 10 games his offensive rating has really sucked (down to 96 in that span compared to 112 in Nov), while Ball's has improved (to 99 in that span compared to 89 in Nov).

So right now, Ball is slightly better and he's trending upward, while Clarkson is trending downward.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:42 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
PG13 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
The_Dynasty24 wrote:
JC is a scorer, if he's not scoring well he doesn't bring much to the table. Lonzo impacts the entire offense so much more, I don't think it's comparable. Lonzo on a bad shooting night still makes the Lakers better, the same can't be said for JC.

And I'm not even trying to hate on JC, he just doesn't have the same feel for the game that Lonzo does.


how do you post this when the guy just recorded 7 Assists, 6 Rebounds and 4 Steals?
JC doesn't typically have that many assists though, and as far as I can remember several of his assists came after he pounded the ball for a significant amount of the shot clock and needed a bailout dump off pass.


Did you think JC played well today? Regardless of his assist total, it seemed to me like he was being a ball stopper out there. If you had a different point of view I'm open to listening, not trying to blindly hate on him.


If he had shot over 50% from the field, I think it would have been an excellent game. Just for comparison....do you feel on most nights that most of Lonzo's assists actually create the scoring opportunity for his teammates? I would guess...and its truly a low educated guess that Lonzo may average 1.5-2.5 assists a game that actually create the scoring opportunity. The vast majority are a simple chest pass to a guy on the wing, and he knocks down the shot. That is fine...but if we are going to pick apart JC's assists....then they have to be compared to something.


Well if we're comparing to Lonzo, yes I think those are much better plays. I agree that probably half of Lonzo's assists are from quickly swinging the ball to an open man, but I feel like those are much better assists than JC pounding the ball, driving into traffic, and then when he gets stuck having to luck into being able to dump the ball off. Swinging the ball to the open man doesn't make him a creative passer, and I agree it's something many PGs can do. The problem is JC doesn't.

And I don't even think it's just Lonzo's assists numbers. The way he throws the ball forward off rebounds ignites fastbreak points, even if he doesn't get an assist registered for him. So yes, I do believe Lonzo creates so many more scoring opportunities than JC, and he also runs the offense so much more smoothly.


and yet Clarkson has an offensive rating of 106 and Ball's is only 92....that is black and white factual evidence that the offense is not nearly as productive with Ball on the court in comparison to JC.


Overall JC has a negative BPM and Lonzo has a positive BPM. So the Lakers do bettwr with Lonzo on the floor.


Basically, the offense has done better with Clarkson on the floor, and the defense has done worse. Which kind of makes sense since Ball has a crappy offensive rating and Clarkson has a crappy defensive rating.

When you look at both offensive and defensive rating, Ball is slightly better but neither is very good, which is not surprising for a 11-21 team.

But one more thing: Clarkson started off the season strong, but over the last 10 games his offensive rating has really sucked (down to 96 in that span compared to 112 in Nov), while Ball's has improved (to 99 in that span compared to 89 in Nov).

So right now, Ball is slightly better and he's trending upward, while Clarkson is trending downward.


And one is a 20 year old rookie and the other is a 25 year old 4th year player. The 20nyear old rookie is already slightly better
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