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yinoma2001
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 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
Even if it seems like a waste of space, guys like Nick Collison, Udonis Haslem were worth their weight in gold for their teams, providing institutional stability and leadership to younger players. We just had a revolving door of mercenaries. |
Collision and Haslem are reallly uncommon -- there have only been about a dozen players in the entire history of the NBA who have stayed with a team as long as they have.
(I only bring this up because one of my pet peeves is people saying "guys like" and then giving a couple of examples and suggested there are a bunch more like those examples, when there really aren't).
I mean, who precisely do you think the Lakers should have kept to provide this "institutional stability" -- Jordan Hill? Resign Metta World Peace? |
Many teams have those guys. I was just giving examples. Others could be guys like Jameer Nelson, Richard Jefferson, Jared Dudley (widely credited for helping Giannis become who he is), Mike Miller, and so on. Not too expensive but not sexy names. Having basically assistant coach/players like them help. I guess MWP sort of was one in retrospect.
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Bard207 wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Bard207 wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: |
I think the culture would be less toxic than it was in Philly under Hinkie. |
If Ainge wasn't able to flip Kobe for multiple high lottery picks, how would he have been able to accomplish things similar to what he has done with the Celtics?
Ainge had/has a proxy in Brooklyn to take the beatings to get the high lottery picks while Philadelphia (and Lakers) had to take their own beatings to get their high lottery picks.
The same things happened decades ago when other teams had to take the beatings while the Lakers got the picks that became Magic and Worthy.
It is difficult to have a happy & positive environment when a team has to take their own beatings to get the high lottery picks. |
I agree, but Ainge also flipped Rondo for value (as the Lakers should've done with Pau), traded for IT (the Lakers should've signed IT), and hired the best scheme and development coach he could find regardless of Celtics affiliation (not Foxhole Scott).
The Nets picks will put them over the top, and they may have been stuck in the 4th seed without them, but the Celtics were already a playoff team before the first Nets pick ever vested. They avoided beatings because of culture and shrewd smaller moves that brought them I.T. and Crowder, and a coach who maximized value out of teens and twenties picks like Olynyk, Sullinger, Zeller, etc. even while Ainge was missing as much as he hit through the draft (and that came because he was amassing picks in smaller deals over the years with Memphis, LAC, Dallas, etc).
Bottoming out may have given the Lakers a brighter future than a quick rebuild Celtics team without the Nets picks, but I'd still bet on Danny Ainge adding Horford and Hayward to a playoff team even without Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum, or Kyrie Irving to show for the Brooklyn 1sts. I still don't know what the Lakers will have to show for years of stealth tanking through Kobe's farewell tour. |
Yes, but if the goal is to have a parade in late June, then having a top 3 pick appears to be the norm with perhaps a few outliers over the year.
In regards to trading Pau, they might have had an offer for a second round pick, but wanted a first. Eventually Pau left with no asset coming back for him.
The Lakers organization (FO, coaching staff Buss family, media and fanbase) had never been through an absolute bottoming out process like most other teams have gone through.
Instead of having some vestiges of the past to build off of, they started from ground zero. Draft picks had been sent out to bring in vets to keep things rolling during the Pau & Kobe years. Draft picks were sent out to dump some contracts as the luxury tax bite progressed through each successive Collective Bargaining Agreement. When the contender mindset stared winding down, they were staring mostly from scratch.
It appears that all parts of the Lakers organization (FO, coaching staff Buss family, media and most of the fanbase) weren't prepared to take the beatings for the high lottery picks.
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I still don't know what the Lakers will have to show for years of stealth tanking through Kobe's farewell tour.
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They didn't load up heavily on draft picks as Hinkie and Ainge did. They haven't gone with a strong player development program similar to what Marks and Atkinson are doing with the Nets.
The attempts for a quick rebound by signing free agents haven't shown much in the way of positive results so far.
So, I agree that there is a question about what was going on in the past during the KFT and even now when the beatings are supposed to be over and an upward trend should be showing during this season. |
Horford would've been their only top three pick without the Nets treasure trove. But that wouldn't have been a championship core, though guys like Crowder on cheaper deals along with the Memphis pick and Smart could've possibly netted them an additional All-Star to pair with IT, Horford, and Hayward. Unlikely, though, and the Nets picks have given Ainge a ton of flexibility. Stupid Billy King.
Spot on assessment of the post-Dr. Buss Lakers' woes. There's no institutional memory for how to rebuild from the bottom up and a lot of folks still in the organization who are transfixed by the power of the Lakers mystique to effect a quick rebuild, when ironically it could be retarding it.
The 2017 draft looks to be gangbusters, though, which hopefully provides the foundation the new regime can build on. And hopefully they also get decent return on some of the young holdovers from the Jim&Mitch regime while adding free agents to Ball and Kuzma at some point before 2021. |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| bandiger wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
Even if it seems like a waste of space, guys like Nick Collison, Udonis Haslem were worth their weight in gold for their teams, providing institutional stability and leadership to younger players. We just had a revolving door of mercenaries. |
Collision and Haslem are reallly uncommon -- there have only been about a dozen players in the entire history of the NBA who have stayed with a team as long as they have.
(I only bring this up because one of my pet peeves is people saying "guys like" and then giving a couple of examples and suggested there are a bunch more like those examples, when there really aren't).
I mean, who precisely do you think the Lakers should have kept to provide this "institutional stability" -- Jordan Hill? Resign Metta World Peace? |
Um, Steve Blake I guess. He would have been nice to keep around although I think he's out of the league. |
What are you talking about? Steve Black's still on the team - he just has a mustache now. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
Even if it seems like a waste of space, guys like Nick Collison, Udonis Haslem were worth their weight in gold for their teams, providing institutional stability and leadership to younger players. We just had a revolving door of mercenaries. |
Collision and Haslem are reallly uncommon -- there have only been about a dozen players in the entire history of the NBA who have stayed with a team as long as they have.
(I only bring this up because one of my pet peeves is people saying "guys like" and then giving a couple of examples and suggested there are a bunch more like those examples, when there really aren't).
I mean, who precisely do you think the Lakers should have kept to provide this "institutional stability" -- Jordan Hill? Resign Metta World Peace? |
Many teams have those guys. I was just giving examples. Others could be guys like Jameer Nelson, Richard Jefferson, Jared Dudley (widely credited for helping Giannis become who he is), Mike Miller, and so on. Not too expensive but not sexy names. Having basically assistant coach/players like them help. I guess MWP sort of was one in retrospect. |
Jameer Nelson is actually the opposite of what you're describing. He played his first 10 years for Orlando, starting every game and making a hefty salary. They then waived him because they wanted cap flexibility and wanted to move to young leadership.
Some of those other guys did play long spells at the start of their careers for one team, when they were good and highly paid. But they didn't hang around with those teams at the end of their careers to provide "instittutional stability."
Richard Jefferson hopped all over the place -- he played for 7 teams over his last 10 years. Miller and Dudley hopped around too. And that one example you made of Dudley working with Giannis? Dudley only played with Milwaukee a single season so he didn't provide stability there either.
If all you're saying is it's good to have some old vets around, OK. But none of the guys you mentioned were kept around for a long time by one team after their prime to provide institutional stability, like Collision and Haslem. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
Even if it seems like a waste of space, guys like Nick Collison, Udonis Haslem were worth their weight in gold for their teams, providing institutional stability and leadership to younger players. We just had a revolving door of mercenaries. |
Collision and Haslem are reallly uncommon -- there have only been about a dozen players in the entire history of the NBA who have stayed with a team as long as they have.
(I only bring this up because one of my pet peeves is people saying "guys like" and then giving a couple of examples and suggested there are a bunch more like those examples, when there really aren't).
I mean, who precisely do you think the Lakers should have kept to provide this "institutional stability" -- Jordan Hill? Resign Metta World Peace? |
Many teams have those guys. I was just giving examples. Others could be guys like Jameer Nelson, Richard Jefferson, Jared Dudley (widely credited for helping Giannis become who he is), Mike Miller, and so on. Not too expensive but not sexy names. Having basically assistant coach/players like them help. I guess MWP sort of was one in retrospect. |
Jameer Nelson is actually the opposite of what you're describing. He played his first 10 years for Orlando, starting every game and making a hefty salary. They then waived him because they wanted cap flexibility and wanted to move to young leadership.
Some of those other guys did play long spells at the start of their careers for one team, when they were good and highly paid. But they didn't hang around with those teams at the end of their careers to provide "instittutional stability."
Richard Jefferson hopped all over the place -- he played for 7 teams over his last 10 years. Miller and Dudley hopped around too. And that one example you made of Dudley working with Giannis? Dudley only played with Milwaukee a single season so he didn't provide stability there either.
If all you're saying is it's good to have some old vets around, OK. But none of the guys you mentioned were kept around for a long time by one team after their prime to provide institutional stability, like Collision and Haslem. |
You’re right but those are the kinds of guys I would have liked towards the 32+ years old guys to have around. I wanted Dudley bc I thought he would help out guys like jules and BI.
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Laker_Town
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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Great farking job...
Just farking awesome |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
Even if it seems like a waste of space, guys like Nick Collison, Udonis Haslem were worth their weight in gold for their teams, providing institutional stability and leadership to younger players. We just had a revolving door of mercenaries. |
Collision and Haslem are reallly uncommon -- there have only been about a dozen players in the entire history of the NBA who have stayed with a team as long as they have.
(I only bring this up because one of my pet peeves is people saying "guys like" and then giving a couple of examples and suggested there are a bunch more like those examples, when there really aren't).
I mean, who precisely do you think the Lakers should have kept to provide this "institutional stability" -- Jordan Hill? Resign Metta World Peace? |
Many teams have those guys. I was just giving examples. Others could be guys like Jameer Nelson, Richard Jefferson, Jared Dudley (widely credited for helping Giannis become who he is), Mike Miller, and so on. Not too expensive but not sexy names. Having basically assistant coach/players like them help. I guess MWP sort of was one in retrospect. |
Jameer Nelson is actually the opposite of what you're describing. He played his first 10 years for Orlando, starting every game and making a hefty salary. They then waived him because they wanted cap flexibility and wanted to move to young leadership.
Some of those other guys did play long spells at the start of their careers for one team, when they were good and highly paid. But they didn't hang around with those teams at the end of their careers to provide "instittutional stability."
Richard Jefferson hopped all over the place -- he played for 7 teams over his last 10 years. Miller and Dudley hopped around too. And that one example you made of Dudley working with Giannis? Dudley only played with Milwaukee a single season so he didn't provide stability there either.
If all you're saying is it's good to have some old vets around, OK. But none of the guys you mentioned were kept around for a long time by one team after their prime to provide institutional stability, like Collision and Haslem. |
You’re right but those are the kinds of guys I would have liked towards the 32+ years old guys to have around. I wanted Dudley bc I thought he would help out guys like jules and BI. |
Fair enough. So it's more about just having some solid vets around. Can't disagree with that |
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laker4life
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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If your team is worse than the previous year, you are not doing a good job.
I am sorry but you need to wake up to reality.
They may be better next year but what is sad is that we are so bad this year anything next year will be an improvement. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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Man I feel like this thread jinxed our season. 
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justsomelakerfan
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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Great job
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Austin Reaves
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KobeDunk
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Now Luke will likely become the scapegoat. Same old bs marry go round |
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Team of the 80's
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Magic should have kept his mouth shut. Any pressure the FO put on Luke to play certain guys has come home to roost. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeDunk wrote: | | Now Luke will likely become the scapegoat. Same old bs marry go round |
So the lakers and luke will have a divorce? |
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KobeDunk
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Horrible management wow. This makes Mitch and Jim look good |
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55
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Should’ve been assistant a few more years. |
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justsomelakerfan
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeDunk wrote: | | Now Luke will likely become the scapegoat. Same old bs marry go round |
Yep
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Austin Reaves
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Laker's Fan
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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If Jim Buss had done 20% of the things Magic has done and this was the outcome, people would seriously have lost their minds.
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Austin Reaves keeps his game tight, like Kobe Bryant on game night. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| justsomelakerfan wrote: | | KobeDunk wrote: | | Now Luke will likely become the scapegoat. Same old bs marry go round |
Yep |
Plenty of mistakes by Luke, but not fatal, and could have used not getting set up.
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eddiejonze
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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It's after the hornets game and I just wanted to come here and say no, no they most certainly aren't.
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Creatures crawl in search of blood, To terrorize y'alls neighborhood. |
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justsomelakerfan
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | justsomelakerfan wrote: | | KobeDunk wrote: | | Now Luke will likely become the scapegoat. Same old bs marry go round |
Yep |
Plenty of mistakes by Luke, but not fatal, and could have used not getting set up. |
Yeah I am not his biggest fan but he still shows potential for being good down the road, like this season before the wheels fell off... and I don't put a lot of the collapse on him, and it will be (and has been) put on him. Who replaces him? I worry
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Austin Reaves
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeDunk wrote: | | Now Luke will likely become the scapegoat. Same old bs marry go round |
Urrgggg, its escape goat
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | KobeDunk wrote: | | Now Luke will likely become the scapegoat. Same old bs marry go round |
Urrgggg, its escape goat |
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Dominator
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| This is an unfortunate thread |
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Jellojigglin
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:02 am Post subject: |
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Season is going right in the toilet.
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| I think he meant for the Celtics. |
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