Are we really that dependant on Lonzo?
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Liger24Zero
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:36 am    Post subject:

ingle wrote:
We are such a dumb team collectively that when our floor general goes out the team dissolves into playing 2k MyTeam type ball.


LOL! True.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:44 am    Post subject:

I think there is a number of factors at play here. Losing our PG, young guys hitting a wall (Kuzma/BI), inconsistency in the lineups (Zo out, Brook out). Our "veterans" like JC and Randle, while being guys who can have big games, aren't the type of players who you really want navigating a young team through murky waters. They are "me first" type players.

All in all, I think these guys will figure it out and get back to playing good, competitive basketball, fairly soon.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:57 am    Post subject:

If the answer is yes, it's both good news and bad. It's good that when Lonzo gets back we are much better but it's bad, like others have pointed out, that we can't compete without Lonzo because our backup PG's suck. This big weakness is exposed now for all (hello Magic) to see.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:12 am    Post subject:

Lonzo is vital to the teams success, but the team is basically playing with one arm tied behind its back even with him.

We have $40 million tied up in two vets that provide very little. One has been a healthy scratch all season and the other hurts more then helps when he's out on the floor. These guys provide nothing in terms of leadership, they are role players being paid like superstars. Lopez has been the most disappointing because I actually felt he would be an big improvement at the center position.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:12 am    Post subject:

Lakers#1Team wrote:
If the answer is yes, it's both good news and bad. It's good that when Lonzo gets back we are much better but it's bad, like others have pointed out, that we can't compete without Lonzo because our backup PG's suck. This big weakness is exposed now for all (hello Magic) to see.


It's a long time ago but I remember when we brought Glen Rice in to be our shooter with Kobe and Shaq. Needless to say, that experiment did not go over well. Rice was used to being the 'man' and he was relegated into being a glorified role player. Caused a lot of chemistry problems for that team.

If we had kept Dlo, would there have been the same issues? I know we frequently talk about starting Lonzo at the 1 and Dlo at the 2, with Dlo probably sliding to the point when Lonzo sits but would Dlo have been happy with this, especially since he had been our primary ball handler since he was drafted. Or let's say we start Dlo at the point and bring Lonzo off the bench, would that have worked ego wise as well to sit our no 2 pick in favour of a third year player. It's not as if Lonzo was benched because we have a prime Nash in front of him.

Just thinking about this because with the chemistry issues we have now stemming from playing time/first team status, would it have been realistic to keep both Dlo and Lonzo, or would that have caused the same chemistry problems we have now?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:15 am    Post subject:

Our only legitimate PG is Lonzo. We never signed a backup PG to run the offense.

I don't believe Luke Walton is much of the issue as stated to be. There are too many plays where guys don't hustle back on defense. That occurred with D'antoni, Byron and now Luke. It's a byproduct of young guys with little cohesion and no veterans.

In the 4th quarter, we struggle generating half court offense. If BI is not hitting, it becomes a free for all for who will get the ball.

We've been through a rough stretch and we should have never lost that Portland game or Rockets game. However, these issues wouldn't be so glaring if we had All Star talent on the roster today.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:16 am    Post subject:

I pleaded on this forum for Rondo... not because he's the cure for everything but because Lonzo had been injured in summer league and he just seemed fragile (unlike Kobe) More than 50% scoffed and said how he'd ruin the team's chemistry. That may have been true, but nothing destroys team chemistry more than playing in an incompetent manner and losing over and over again. I pointed out that although Ennis had a few good games during the garbage time of the previous season... that he could not cover for Lonzo if he were out for a prolonged period. People insisted that he would be better than Rondo. Ennis seems like a good guy... maybe one day he might develop into more... but statistically he's done nothing to support that theory.

I don't care if it's Boogie, or Lebron... but we need some great players for the max deals. Randle has shown he cannot carry the deficiencies of this team, in spite of strong efforts most of the season. Could Randle be an important piece on an already strong team... yes. And I fear once we trade him that he will put up 30 and 15 every time he sees us. But for us to use one of our precious max contracts on him seems like dooming the team to mediocrity. He will be great on a playoff caliber team where he's an energy guy and doing the dirty work... but on a team that badly needs a veteran leader, Randle is just not good enough.

Yes we are that dependent on Lonzo, and the good news is that without him we look like last year's team proving in terms of intangibles that he's much better than the analysts give him credit for.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:19 am    Post subject:

I think Lonzo is a floor leader they need, however I don't think this is the total reason for the problems they're having. Right now something is going on internally, possibly related to trade talk etc. So I'm not going to say it's all Lonzo, but who knows maybe I'm wrong and Lonzo will change the way the team plays.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:25 am    Post subject:

Lonzo is THAT good. He's done this his whole life.

Besides him, who do we have?

Kuzma will get his 17-25 points no matter what, but that's not enough by itself.

Walton is OK, but he's chosen poor assistants who can't really help him in a way that matters right now.

Our roster is filled with perennial losers: Randle, Clarkson, KCP, Lopez, Ennis, etc. The guys on the team most used to winning and leading are the three 1st round draft picks. And no team racks up wins when spearheaded by rooks.

Lonzo and Kuzma together could keep things competitive, but take one out, especially the starting PG, and you're seeing the domino effect.

To be honest, I expected more of BI during this stretch above all else.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:26 am    Post subject:

Ball will be returning for Home games against Charlotte, Atlanta, and Sacramento....that will be great for narrative.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:33 am    Post subject:

We beat Houston and then took them to 2 OTs without him, so while we are definitely better with him, we can compete without him.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:35 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Ball will be returning for Home games against Charlotte, Atlanta, and Sacramento....that will be great for narrative.


Come on, we should've at least beaten the Grizzlies without him. If we can defeat those weaker teams, Lonzo should get some credit.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:45 am    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Ball will be returning for Home games against Charlotte, Atlanta, and Sacramento....that will be great for narrative.


Come on, we should've at least beaten the Grizzlies without him. If we can defeat those weaker teams, Lonzo should get some credit.


Well, Lonzo is the starting PG and we don't have a decent backup. If we did,
there wouldn't be much of a difference.

Until Lonzo becomes a consistent scorer, aside from his passing, he's
a one trick predictable pony. Teams can let him get his 10-12 points right now until, no respect for that jump shot and an opportunity to double up on someone else...does the team miss him sure, he's the best PG we have; to
me that's not saying an awful lot.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:46 am    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Ball will be returning for Home games against Charlotte, Atlanta, and Sacramento....that will be great for narrative.


Come on, we should've at least beaten the Grizzlies without him. If we can defeat those weaker teams, Lonzo should get some credit.


and I am sure he will....Magic may even show his face again to remind us that we won again because of Lonzo. We went off the rails the last two games, but out biggest problem has been defense which was clearly trending bad before we lost Ball. We were competitive with Minnesota on Christmas and would have beat Memphis two days later if both games were not derailed by the Caruso, Brewer, Nance, and two other bench player lineups that could not score at the end of the 3rd and beginning of 4th that Luke rolled with for 5-7 minutes. Hell, we do not go to OT with Houston if not for Lukes (bleep) lineup to end the 3rd and begin the 4th.

Playing 3 (bleep) teams @ home, the odds are we look much better....it will be great for narrative.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:49 am    Post subject:

Vanquish wrote:
Lakers#1Team wrote:
If the answer is yes, it's both good news and bad. It's good that when Lonzo gets back we are much better but it's bad, like others have pointed out, that we can't compete without Lonzo because our backup PG's suck. This big weakness is exposed now for all (hello Magic) to see.


It's a long time ago but I remember when we brought Glen Rice in to be our shooter with Kobe and Shaq. Needless to say, that experiment did not go over well. Rice was used to being the 'man' and he was relegated into being a glorified role player. Caused a lot of chemistry problems for that team.

If we had kept Dlo, would there have been the same issues? I know we frequently talk about starting Lonzo at the 1 and Dlo at the 2, with Dlo probably sliding to the point when Lonzo sits but would Dlo have been happy with this, especially since he had been our primary ball handler since he was drafted. Or let's say we start Dlo at the point and bring Lonzo off the bench, would that have worked ego wise as well to sit our no 2 pick in favour of a third year player. It's not as if Lonzo was benched because we have a prime Nash in front of him.

Just thinking about this because with the chemistry issues we have now stemming from playing time/first team status, would it have been realistic to keep both Dlo and Lonzo, or would that have caused the same chemistry problems we have now?

The Lakers won a title with Glen Rice. The "chemistry issues" were that his loudmouth wife would go to the press with his outsized salary demands, but I've never read or heard of any issues with Rice in the lockerroom that season. Obviously he walked to get paid more, which seemed more pressing to him than his on-court role.

DLo seemed to defer to Huertas as a rookie, he seemed to defer to the JC experiment late last season, and he was gearing up to work with another floor general in Jeremy Lin this season before Lin's injury. Once DLo comes back this month, it'll be interesting to see how the Nets re-integrate him with their other two young combo-guards, Dinwiddie and LeVert. Now his deference to Huertas and Lou and Clarkson over his first two seasons may have been a show while he pouted and complained behind the scenes, and he did like some IG post about the Lakers not needing Ball or some such nonsense. So even if they could've meshed on the court, it doesn't mean they wouldn't have been oil and water behind the scenes with DLo again pouting and complaining (if that narrative is true or remained true).

But I think Lonzo would've been just fine. He deals with more drama every time he checks his notifications than whatever beef "malcontent DLo" could've given him. On the court, Ball's game is built to compliment and accentuate the game of a high usage scorer whether that's Russell or George or the idealized version of Ingram. Having another player on the floor who could draw defensive attention and hit him on lobs, backcuts, corner threes, etc., would accentuate Ball's game in turn. Since he and Russell will obviously never play together, I hope to see George play with Lonzo next season to help bring out the best in Lonzo's game as a PG with advanced SG skills.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:52 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Ball will be returning for Home games against Charlotte, Atlanta, and Sacramento....that will be great for narrative.


Come on, we should've at least beaten the Grizzlies without him. If we can defeat those weaker teams, Lonzo should get some credit.


and I am sure he will....Magic may even show his face again to remind us that we won again because of Lonzo. We went off the rails the last two games, but out biggest problem has been defense which was clearly trending bad before we lost Ball. We were competitive with Minnesota on Christmas and would have beat Memphis two days later if both games were not derailed by the Caruso, Brewer, Nance, and two other bench player lineups that could not score at the end of the 3rd and beginning of 4th that Luke rolled with for 5-7 minutes. Hell, we do not go to OT with Houston if not for Lukes (bleep) lineup to end the 3rd and begin the 4th.

Playing 3 (bleep) teams @ home, the odds are we look much better....it will be great for narrative.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:58 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Ball will be returning for Home games against Charlotte, Atlanta, and Sacramento....that will be great for narrative.


Come on, we should've at least beaten the Grizzlies without him. If we can defeat those weaker teams, Lonzo should get some credit.


and I am sure he will....Magic may even show his face again to remind us that we won again because of Lonzo. We went off the rails the last two games, but out biggest problem has been defense which was clearly trending bad before we lost Ball. We were competitive with Minnesota on Christmas and would have beat Memphis two days later if both games were not derailed by the Caruso, Brewer, Nance, and two other bench player lineups that could not score at the end of the 3rd and beginning of 4th that Luke rolled with for 5-7 minutes. Hell, we do not go to OT with Houston if not for Lukes (bleep) lineup to end the 3rd and begin the 4th.

Playing 3 (bleep) teams @ home, the odds are we look much better....it will be great for narrative.


Competitive like they stopped playing for three minutes and then fired off like a 20-0 run when they started caring again.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:04 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
We beat Houston and then took them to 2 OTs without him, so while we are definitely better with him, we can compete without him.


For whatever reason we pushed the ball at every opportunity in that game. We have no shooters so we canít score with any efficiency in the half court. Once we stop the ball and movement and reduce ourselves to a half court team this team has lost.

That is why Zo was so vital to this team as heís the only player that increases the pace of this team. Lastly our teams defense is driven by how good our offense is though it should be the other way around.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:08 am    Post subject:

levon wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Ball will be returning for Home games against Charlotte, Atlanta, and Sacramento....that will be great for narrative.


Come on, we should've at least beaten the Grizzlies without him. If we can defeat those weaker teams, Lonzo should get some credit.


and I am sure he will....Magic may even show his face again to remind us that we won again because of Lonzo. We went off the rails the last two games, but out biggest problem has been defense which was clearly trending bad before we lost Ball. We were competitive with Minnesota on Christmas and would have beat Memphis two days later if both games were not derailed by the Caruso, Brewer, Nance, and two other bench player lineups that could not score at the end of the 3rd and beginning of 4th that Luke rolled with for 5-7 minutes. Hell, we do not go to OT with Houston if not for Lukes (bleep) lineup to end the 3rd and begin the 4th.

Playing 3 (bleep) teams @ home, the odds are we look much better....it will be great for narrative.


Competitive like they stopped playing for three minutes and then fired off like a 20-0 run when they started caring again.


competitive like 77-74 with 1 minute left in the 3rd Quarter when Caruso entered the game. Luke put in Brewer & Nance to begin the 4th. Luke left the Caruso, Brewer, Nance, Ennis & Randle until the TWolves had built up a lead...17-8 run before subbing out that lineup with about 9 1/2 minutes left in game. We closed the lead to 6 later in 4th, but never could get lead back.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:14 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
levon wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Ball will be returning for Home games against Charlotte, Atlanta, and Sacramento....that will be great for narrative.


Come on, we should've at least beaten the Grizzlies without him. If we can defeat those weaker teams, Lonzo should get some credit.


and I am sure he will....Magic may even show his face again to remind us that we won again because of Lonzo. We went off the rails the last two games, but out biggest problem has been defense which was clearly trending bad before we lost Ball. We were competitive with Minnesota on Christmas and would have beat Memphis two days later if both games were not derailed by the Caruso, Brewer, Nance, and two other bench player lineups that could not score at the end of the 3rd and beginning of 4th that Luke rolled with for 5-7 minutes. Hell, we do not go to OT with Houston if not for Lukes (bleep) lineup to end the 3rd and begin the 4th.

Playing 3 (bleep) teams @ home, the odds are we look much better....it will be great for narrative.


Competitive like they stopped playing for three minutes and then fired off like a 20-0 run when they started caring again.


competitive like 77-74 with 1 minute left in the 3rd Quarter when Caruso entered the game. Luke put in Brewer & Nance to begin the 4th. Luke left the Caruso, Brewer, Nance, Ennis & Randle until the TWolves had built up a lead...17-8 run before subbing out that lineup with about 9 1/2 minutes left in game. We closed the lead to 6 later in 4th, but never could get lead back.


Memphis...very similar....tied 76-76 to begin the 4th. Luke puts in Caruso....Caruso subs out @ around 7 1/2 minutes left in 4th, the score is 90-82....a 14-6 run....we never could recover.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:19 am    Post subject:

That was a tough stretch of games we just went through. Same result would've happened if Randle, Ingram, or Kuzma missed time instead of Lonzo.

The margin of error for our team is 0. We need all hands on deck to get wins. We just ran through murderers row of the West. IIRC we played 4 out of the top 5 (GS, HOU, OKC, MIN). Even with Lonzo healthy. We're underdogs for those 5 games (played MIN twice).
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:27 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Ball will be returning for Home games against Charlotte, Atlanta, and Sacramento....that will be great for narrative.


Double-digit home losses at home against non-playoff teams like the Clippers & Grizzlies, and losing by double digits in 6 out of 7 games overall are why that narrative will have existed in the first place.

This team is spiraling right now and if they right the ship with Lonzo coming back, he'll rightfully get a lot of the credit.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:29 am    Post subject:

Liger24Zero wrote:
ingle wrote:
We are such a dumb team collectively that when our floor general goes out the team dissolves into playing 2k MyTeam type ball.


LOL! True.


An inexperienced team can quickly become dependant on the smallest form of leadership.

It's all positive. The only negative is that they haven't achieved a record that surpasses projections (boohoo for the delirious off-season dreamers).

Then you have the haters to ignore whom all point to luke and the FO while completely ignoring that our ex-all-star C and future franchise PG were both hurt during a slide.

But none of them will admit that their "opinion" of JR / JC were a bit too optimistic considering the recent slide was their opportunity to be proven right all along. They weren't good enough to win with more minutes and maybe Luke has just cause to have limited them WHILE INCREASING THEIR VALUE (which is actually the best thing for their personal careers).

Aka, therefore, as an owner, Luke and the FO has done exceeding well.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:33 am    Post subject:

Lonzo is transcendent.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:34 am    Post subject: Re: Are we really that dependant on Lonzo?

GoldenThroat wrote:
LakersNewEra wrote:
Man, this team started to look like a well oiled machine atter the game vs Rockets and then Warriors. We were really firing on all cylinders, KD praised us, said it will be really hard to beat us in the future and then suddenly just like that...we lost multiple games in a row and we look horrible. The only thing that has really changed is that Lonzo isnt playing and we dont look half as good.

I mean, is that really all that there is to it? Is it just Lonzo's presence we miss because that would be pretty insane impact by just one player to mean so much to a team.
Admittedly I was his biggest critic at the beginning of the season but very possible I was wrong even though I still think he needs to shoot bt thats beside the point here.

What the heck happened to us the last few weeks? Did Kuzma hit the rookie wall or does he especially benefit from Lonzo's presence as he needs to be set up for his points? I mean what the heck happened...someone tell me. How do we go from looking amazing to looking like a G league team...


1) It isn't all Lonzo. I'm concerned that a few guys have basically quit on this team and are just going through the motions. If that's true, Lonzo can't fix that.

2) Been trying to tell you that Lonzo is pretty good.


Wow. I knew the importance of Zo but I had no idea we have a few quitters on the team. This is pretty big news GT. I'm actually having a hard time processing this right now. Even if I felt like I was getting jerked around by my employer, I think I would still be passionate enough to go out there and not cheat the fans. I have no clue which players you think have quit, but this is very concerning news.
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