Are we really that dependant on Lonzo?
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tox
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:43 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
tox wrote:
I'm going to start watching Ingram on defense because I feel like this narrative about Ingram going balls to the wall on defense is absolutely false, but I can't speak to it personally. I find it hard to believe someone with his measurables can have such a paltry stock rate (even though his block numbers have gone up) if that motor is there.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:45 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:

I'm going to start watching Ingram on defense because I feel like this narrative about Ingram going balls to the wall on defense is absolutely false, but I can't speak to it personally. I find it hard to believe someone with his measurables can have such a paltry stock rate (even though his block numbers have gone up) if that motor is there.

Last night was a poor example because everyone gave up at different points of the game (some for the whole game), but he gets lost a lot on help defense with slow rotations and late closeouts, and he can be maddeningly inconsistent boxing out. Is that an awareness or an effort issue? I genuinely don't know, but his motor doesn't run that high to my eye test (which can be fine depending on what else he brings to the floor).
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tox
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:48 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
tox wrote:

I'm going to start watching Ingram on defense because I feel like this narrative about Ingram going balls to the wall on defense is absolutely false, but I can't speak to it personally. I find it hard to believe someone with his measurables can have such a paltry stock rate (even though his block numbers have gone up) if that motor is there.

Last night was a poor example because everyone gave up at different points of the game (some for the whole game), but he gets lost a lot on help defense with slow rotations and late closeouts, and he can be maddeningly inconsistent boxing out. Is that an awareness or an effort issue? I genuinely don't know, but his motor doesn't run that high to my eye test (which can be fine depending on what else he brings to the floor).

I think it's also unfair because he's been playing big minutes, is banged up, and has a lot of offensive responsibility. Luckily with Lonzo back most of that should be ameliorated and I can get a decent evaluation.

Though to be perfectly honest, if there's anything I learned from GT's videos, it's that even if I'm watching I might miss plenty of stuff, especially on defense. So even if I do that I'll be a little hesitant to draw too strong conclusions.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:49 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
tox wrote:

I'm going to start watching Ingram on defense because I feel like this narrative about Ingram going balls to the wall on defense is absolutely false, but I can't speak to it personally. I find it hard to believe someone with his measurables can have such a paltry stock rate (even though his block numbers have gone up) if that motor is there.

Last night was a poor example because everyone gave up at different points of the game (some for the whole game), but he gets lost a lot on help defense with slow rotations and late closeouts, and he can be maddeningly inconsistent boxing out. Is that an awareness or an effort issue? I genuinely don't know, but his motor doesn't run that high to my eye test (which can be fine depending on what else he brings to the floor).

I think it's also unfair because he's been playing big minutes, is banged up, and has a lot of offensive responsibility. Luckily with Lonzo back most of that should be ameliorated and I can get a decent evaluation.

Though to be perfectly honest, if there's anything I learned from GT's videos, it's that even if I'm watching I might miss plenty of stuff, especially on defense. So even if I do that I'll be a little hesitant to draw too strong conclusions.


I miss a lot of stuff too, even with the ridiculous hours that I spend on it. There's a lot of meat on the bone of basketball.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:02 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Last night was a poor example because everyone gave up at different points of the game (some for the whole game), but he gets lost a lot on help defense with slow rotations and late closeouts, and he can be maddeningly inconsistent boxing out. Is that an awareness or an effort issue? I genuinely don't know, but his motor doesn't run that high to my eye test (which can be fine depending on what else he brings to the floor).


so I get I am coming in mid conversation.....and I agree about Ingram's "motor" on defense....what have we concluded the decline in defense since about mid December is a result of? Is it that once Lopez went out, we pulled Nance out of the lineup....and that started the decline.....then Ball going out caused it to get worse? If we return to Ball, KCP, Ingram, Nance and Lopez starting....does the defense return to being in the Top 10ish range?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:11 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Ball will be returning for Home games against Charlotte, Atlanta, and Sacramento....that will be great for narrative.


Double-digit home losses at home against non-playoff teams like the Clippers & Grizzlies, and losing by double digits in 6 out of 7 games overall are why that narrative will have existed in the first place.

This team is spiraling right now and if they right the ship with Lonzo coming back, he'll rightfully get a lot of the credit.


we can agree on he will get the credit, and I have little doubt you will be doing your part to ensure he receives the credit. What if we lose 2 out of the 3 games....or get beat badly in one of them? Will it be "I guess Lonzo really was not the issue", or will it be "rust" and "takes time to reintegrate"?

It's 3 home games against Charlotte (4-13 Away), Atlanta (3-16 Away), and Sacramento (6-14 Away)....the odds are we would show better with or without Ball.


As opposed to Memphis (3-12 Away at the time) or the Clippers (6-12 Away at the time) beating them by double digits?

As opposed to the stretch of @PHI, @CHA, @NY, @CLE, vs. GS, @HOU, @GS , vs POR that immediately preceded this stretch, where they went 3-5 and were competitive in every game?

Yeah, he'll deserve credit if they turn things around, and rightfully so.


Lets see how the games play out....if he makes a positive difference, great....have no problem recognizing it. If he struggles or the team struggles when he returns.....I have my doubts that will be recognized with the same weight and will not be considered indicative of anything.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:22 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Ball will be returning for Home games against Charlotte, Atlanta, and Sacramento....that will be great for narrative.


Double-digit home losses at home against non-playoff teams like the Clippers & Grizzlies, and losing by double digits in 6 out of 7 games overall are why that narrative will have existed in the first place.

This team is spiraling right now and if they right the ship with Lonzo coming back, he'll rightfully get a lot of the credit.


we can agree on he will get the credit, and I have little doubt you will be doing your part to ensure he receives the credit. What if we lose 2 out of the 3 games....or get beat badly in one of them? Will it be "I guess Lonzo really was not the issue", or will it be "rust" and "takes time to reintegrate"?

It's 3 home games against Charlotte (4-13 Away), Atlanta (3-16 Away), and Sacramento (6-14 Away)....the odds are we would show better with or without Ball.


As opposed to Memphis (3-12 Away at the time) or the Clippers (6-12 Away at the time) beating them by double digits?

As opposed to the stretch of @PHI, @CHA, @NY, @CLE, vs. GS, @HOU, @GS , vs POR that immediately preceded this stretch, where they went 3-5 and were competitive in every game?

Yeah, he'll deserve credit if they turn things around, and rightfully so.


Lets see how the games play out....if he makes a positive difference, great....have no problem recognizing it. If he struggles or the team struggles when he returns.....I have my doubts that will be recognized with the same weight and will not be considered indicative of anything.


If they play better, he should get some credit. If they play just as badly as they have been, he shouldn't get anything. If they play worse than they've been playing, he deserves some blame.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:36 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
If they play better, he should get some credit. If they play just as badly as they have been, he shouldn't get anything. If they play worse than they've been playing, he deserves some blame.


if your talking about the last two games....nearly impossible. Last night was the first time I can recall in years flipping the channel before halftime...the 2nd Quarter became a joke....and not even checking back in until midway through the 4th Quarter....just in time to see Terrance Ferguson pretending he was in a dunk contest and OKC starters laughing it up. Did not even log in to LG once last night. Now that I think about it....I do not even think I have looked at the box score. I have lost a lot of hope these last two games.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:13 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Last night was a poor example because everyone gave up at different points of the game (some for the whole game), but he gets lost a lot on help defense with slow rotations and late closeouts, and he can be maddeningly inconsistent boxing out. Is that an awareness or an effort issue? I genuinely don't know, but his motor doesn't run that high to my eye test (which can be fine depending on what else he brings to the floor).


so I get I am coming in mid conversation.....and I agree about Ingram's "motor" on defense....what have we concluded the decline in defense since about mid December is a result of? Is it that once Lopez went out, we pulled Nance out of the lineup....and that started the decline.....then Ball going out caused it to get worse? If we return to Ball, KCP, Ingram, Nance and Lopez starting....does the defense return to being in the Top 10ish range?

I think they could climb back up there, but I'm worried the fragile defensive culture has been broken during this losing streak. The team doesn't have any special defenders, but a handle of guys who can be solid and need to all be hustling and communicating to overcome their individual deficiencies on that end.

I'm skeptical they get that back.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:04 pm    Post subject:

They can get it back. They need solid perimeter D. KCP is decent but he's been struggling during this 25 day period. I think he's done now meaning I expect that to improve. JC tries but isn't a very good man Defender (gets blown by too easily). Lonzo was a much better defender and did a decent job with position D and will help on the perimeter once he returns. Right now once perimeter breaks down, BI has shown to me that be a poor help defender (and for that matter a poor defender overall, mostly due to what I think are mental lapses) and doesn't rotate well, leaving Julius alone on the middle. He's good on the perimeter but not a great defender in my eyes when a guy is driving at him with a running start(though not many players are).

To me it starts with perimeter D and Lonzo, KCP will help with that
Saves BI from having to help as much and prevents our big (be it Randle or Lopez) from having to deal with guys coming at them full speed possessions after possession.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:53 pm    Post subject:

Dr. Funkbot wrote:
LakersDC wrote:
I disagree that we are losing because guys are quitting. At first, it sounded plausible, given the FO and want for 2 superstars next year, but when you look at both personal situations and performance, it proves this not to be the case.

The guy most likely to quit would be JR, but JR has been playing more since Zo went out (more tied to the recent team meeting/Brook being out) and has put up his best numbers this year recently. Kuz has been Kuz - super aggressive, but getting worse shots without Zo. BI has been erratic, but he has no reason to quit. Clarkson may be the only one that could be showing some quit in him, but his play has been typical Clarkson so I don't think that's the case. KCP is playing for a contract next year, and frankly he hasn't played any different since Zo went out.

We're a team without a good backup PG and no structure (e.g. we don't have defined roles). A lot of guys are trying to "get theirs" (with the exception of BI who inconsistently become too passive), but that hasn't really changed since Zo left. It is super apparent when we have the last shot of any quarter. You can see that between BI, Clarkson, and Kuz, whenever these situations come up, there is confusion, which often leads to horrible shots. At one point, the team was deferring to BI, but after a bunch of situations where he'd drive into traffic and get stripped/blocked, confusion has returned.


Randle is now putting up numbers, but he stopped playing D the minute he got his starting job back and the Lakers are back to to quitting and losing by huge margins. But hey, look at Randle's numbers. Him and JC are just me first gunners. They could care less if we lose as long as they get to score points. Maybe Luke knew something that a lot of us didn't. JR and JC are not starting material.


You think that Randle didnít play defense in the 2 Houston games? Youíre loco.
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tox
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:55 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
tox wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
tox wrote:

I'm going to start watching Ingram on defense because I feel like this narrative about Ingram going balls to the wall on defense is absolutely false, but I can't speak to it personally. I find it hard to believe someone with his measurables can have such a paltry stock rate (even though his block numbers have gone up) if that motor is there.

Last night was a poor example because everyone gave up at different points of the game (some for the whole game), but he gets lost a lot on help defense with slow rotations and late closeouts, and he can be maddeningly inconsistent boxing out. Is that an awareness or an effort issue? I genuinely don't know, but his motor doesn't run that high to my eye test (which can be fine depending on what else he brings to the floor).

I think it's also unfair because he's been playing big minutes, is banged up, and has a lot of offensive responsibility. Luckily with Lonzo back most of that should be ameliorated and I can get a decent evaluation.

Though to be perfectly honest, if there's anything I learned from GT's videos, it's that even if I'm watching I might miss plenty of stuff, especially on defense. So even if I do that I'll be a little hesitant to draw too strong conclusions.


I miss a lot of stuff too, even with the ridiculous hours that I spend on it. There's a lot of meat on the bone of basketball.

Right. And in BI's credit, the metrics are pretty favorable for him defensively. So I'm probably going to err on being lenient on his defense... but still, I should give it an explicit look anyway.
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tox
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:56 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Last night was a poor example because everyone gave up at different points of the game (some for the whole game), but he gets lost a lot on help defense with slow rotations and late closeouts, and he can be maddeningly inconsistent boxing out. Is that an awareness or an effort issue? I genuinely don't know, but his motor doesn't run that high to my eye test (which can be fine depending on what else he brings to the floor).


so I get I am coming in mid conversation.....and I agree about Ingram's "motor" on defense....what have we concluded the decline in defense since about mid December is a result of? Is it that once Lopez went out, we pulled Nance out of the lineup....and that started the decline.....then Ball going out caused it to get worse? If we return to Ball, KCP, Ingram, Nance and Lopez starting....does the defense return to being in the Top 10ish range?

I think they could climb back up there, but I'm worried the fragile defensive culture has been broken during this losing streak. The team doesn't have any special defenders, but a handle of guys who can be solid and need to all be hustling and communicating to overcome their individual deficiencies on that end.

I'm skeptical they get that back.

Reminiscent of last year. No, they weren't as good (Top-15 about 15 games in instead of Top-3) but they regressed pretty hard (worst in the league by a large margin). That regression I can see this team making. But I do think Lonzo will help. Along with the schedule easing up a bit.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:56 am    Post subject:

KobeDunk wrote:
PHILosophize wrote:
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I'm tired of blaming coaching, it's clearly a roster issue, was with Byron is with Luke. The front office keeps kicking the can down the road with free agency and the young guys have no veteran leadership.


I agree. Perfect coaching (which would come as much from the assistants as anything, in our case) would maybe give us 4-5 extra wins AT BEST.

It's the roster.


yes it is... Luke looked like the next coming of Phil in GS when he coached a few years back... didn't he go something crazy like 40-3 or something? Hell when you have Steph Curry raining down 3s it makes anyone look like a great coach right?


That's close to 50% more wins fellas. That's a LOT.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:34 am    Post subject:

Lonzo makes a bigger impact than what his individual stats would indicate. He a pretty food defender and he constantly pushes the ball which challenges the other teams defense.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject:

KobeDunk wrote:
BizLA wrote:
KobeDunk wrote:
I'm tired of blaming coaching, it's clearly a roster issue, was with Byron is with Luke. The front office keeps kicking the can down the road with free agency and the young guys have no veteran leadership.


Yeah itís mainly the roster. No one on the team can even hit 2 freethrows consistently. That sums it up alone.

Record is usually decided by talent... thatís what wins games. There are few exceptions sometimes. Boston is definitely overachieving thanks to Stevens.


but Boston has much more talent than the Lakers, look at their roster they have at least 2 all stars in Kyrie and Hortford, then they don't have this trade cloud over everyone's head like Lakers do over Randle and Clarkson. Also playing in the East doesn't hurt, look at the crazy schedule the Lakers played in December. Danny Ainge has done a masterful job with this team, from good draft picks to great free agent signings and finally some bold trades especailly for Kyrie. What has our front office done so far? We are still waiting...

apples to oranges with our fo and bostons. boston has won ONE title in how long? before that one title when was the last time the celtics won anything?
the lakers have won a ton before and won some after. Did the celtics have a block buster trade nixed for basketball reasons? No.

Those two things together is why you can't have the same fortunes as boston does today. we won too much and for too long. then to have that deal nixed set us back years. all this stuff was going on while our last great was aging out and the cba rules were changing.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:45 pm    Post subject:

3 GAME WINNING STREAK
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:47 pm    Post subject:

We are most dependent on Lavar Ball. Lakers 3-0 since Lavar talked crap about Luke Walton
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:21 am    Post subject:

TrueBlueLakers wrote:
Lonzo makes a bigger impact than what his individual stats would indicate. He a pretty food defender and he constantly pushes the ball which challenges the other teams defense.


That's not Lonzo, that's Shaq at Krispy Kreme!
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:21 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Ball will be returning for Home games against Charlotte, Atlanta, and Sacramento....that will be great for narrative.


Double-digit home losses at home against non-playoff teams like the Clippers & Grizzlies, and losing by double digits in 6 out of 7 games overall are why that narrative will have existed in the first place.

This team is spiraling right now and if they right the ship with Lonzo coming back, he'll rightfully get a lot of the credit.


we can agree on he will get the credit, and I have little doubt you will be doing your part to ensure he receives the credit. What if we lose 2 out of the 3 games....or get beat badly in one of them? Will it be "I guess Lonzo really was not the issue", or will it be "rust" and "takes time to reintegrate"?

It's 3 home games against Charlotte (4-13 Away), Atlanta (3-16 Away), and Sacramento (6-14 Away)....the odds are we would show better with or without Ball.


As opposed to Memphis (3-12 Away at the time) or the Clippers (6-12 Away at the time) beating them by double digits?

As opposed to the stretch of @PHI, @CHA, @NY, @CLE, vs. GS, @HOU, @GS , vs POR that immediately preceded this stretch, where they went 3-5 and were competitive in every game?

Yeah, he'll deserve credit if they turn things around, and rightfully so.


Lets see how the games play out....if he makes a positive difference, great....have no problem recognizing it. If he struggles or the team struggles when he returns.....I have my doubts that will be recognized with the same weight and will not be considered indicative of anything.


Waiting....
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