Hypothetical: Would you trade Lonzo or Ingram for a Top 5 Pick in 2018 Draft?
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J.C. Smith
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:28 pm    Post subject:

Definitely not. Here's the thing, rookies take time to develop. We can't say we want the Lakers to win now and then try to trade guys away for rookies before those guys have had a chance to develop.
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LakerLogic
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:30 pm    Post subject:

He didn't have the ball-handling or playmaking to be a surefire superstar prospect.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:31 pm    Post subject:

LakerLogic wrote:
Drifts wrote:
Lonzo probaby... his shot won't be effective in the NBA... unless he changes it, he won't be a threat at the NBA level... especially during crunch time, Lonzo's shot can't be relied on in a consistent basis.


Tell Klay that when he hit that step back over him. Dude is finally shooting like he did at UCLA. Wrong time to complain. Ingram can't hit a shot or FT to save his life.


so he makes one shot and suddenly he's the next great shooter...

that shot can't be trusted. especially during crunch time, he can't pull it off with defender sticking to him like glue. that jumper needs to go.
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PerchiN
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:20 pm    Post subject:

No to both
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4stargeneralbulldog
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:08 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
4stargeneralbulldog wrote:
Ah, the shiny new prospect.

I remember around 2013 at LG, there was talk of this really great prospect and that he was going to be the next Lebron or Kobe. A transcendent star that's what LG said, a surefire Hall of Famer added numerous people, I remember that thread going on for something like 70 or 80 pages with members here drooling like crazy.

Who was that prospect? His name was Andrew Wiggins. The guy isn't even the best player in his draft class and looks more like to be the next Joe Johnson than Lebron or Kobe.


That was pretty hilarious. High school competition is not reliable and uniform these days.


I have a problem with this argument. It's not like it was easy to see after 3 years that guys like Kyle Lowry and DeMar DeRozan would end up All-Stars.

Wiggins has so much ridiculous time and even though he's not the most efficient shooter, at least hovers around 45% at 20ppg as a 21 year old. That's ahead of the curve of A LOT of prospects.


Sure, Wiggins can be something special he still has time, but I doubt it. The point being that as a high school prospect, he was labeled as a surefire superstar by the general consensus here, with a small minority saying that's too much. But the consensus here at the time was this guy was the next one.

Wiggins is in his 4th year at the age of 22, will be 23 soon. Lebron was already a superstar at the same age with the same experience in the league about to make his 1st Finals. Kobe was in between a star and superstar and on his way to his 1st finals, if I remember correctly he also made all NBA 2nd team and all defensive 1st team. Is Wiggins going to achieve those milestones this year? I doubt it. This is the same guy that 4 1/2 years ago was proclaimed as the surefire next great one by the general consensus here. He looks to be more like Joe Johnson than Kobe or Lebron.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:20 am    Post subject:

Drifts wrote:
LakerLogic wrote:
Drifts wrote:
Lonzo probaby... his shot won't be effective in the NBA... unless he changes it, he won't be a threat at the NBA level... especially during crunch time, Lonzo's shot can't be relied on in a consistent basis.


Tell Klay that when he hit that step back over him. Dude is finally shooting like he did at UCLA. Wrong time to complain. Ingram can't hit a shot or FT to save his life.


so he makes one shot and suddenly he's the next great shooter...

that shot can't be trusted. especially during crunch time, he can't pull it off with defender sticking to him like glue. that jumper needs to go.


In December he shot 37% from 3 on over 5 attempts per game...
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:36 am    Post subject:

4stargeneralbulldog wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
4stargeneralbulldog wrote:
Ah, the shiny new prospect.

I remember around 2013 at LG, there was talk of this really great prospect and that he was going to be the next Lebron or Kobe. A transcendent star that's what LG said, a surefire Hall of Famer added numerous people, I remember that thread going on for something like 70 or 80 pages with members here drooling like crazy.

Who was that prospect? His name was Andrew Wiggins. The guy isn't even the best player in his draft class and looks more like to be the next Joe Johnson than Lebron or Kobe.


That was pretty hilarious. High school competition is not reliable and uniform these days.


I have a problem with this argument. It's not like it was easy to see after 3 years that guys like Kyle Lowry and DeMar DeRozan would end up All-Stars.

Wiggins has so much ridiculous time and even though he's not the most efficient shooter, at least hovers around 45% at 20ppg as a 21 year old. That's ahead of the curve of A LOT of prospects.


Sure, Wiggins can be something special he still has time, but I doubt it. The point being that as a high school prospect, he was labeled as a surefire superstar by the general consensus here, with a small minority saying that's too much. But the consensus here at the time was this guy was the next one.

Wiggins is in his 4th year at the age of 22, will be 23 soon. Lebron was already a superstar at the same age with the same experience in the league about to make his 1st Finals. Kobe was in between a star and superstar and on his way to his 1st finals, if I remember correctly he also made all NBA 2nd team and all defensive 1st team. Is Wiggins going to achieve those milestones this year? I doubt it. This is the same guy that 4 1/2 years ago was proclaimed as the surefire next great one by the general consensus here. He looks to be more like Joe Johnson than Kobe or Lebron.

If Embiid was healthy (always the big if with him), he would've been the #1 overall pick over Wiggins that year, and he's the most dominant center the NBA has seen since Shaq. Sometimes the shiny new prospect really is all that.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:45 am    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
Drifts wrote:
LakerLogic wrote:
Drifts wrote:
Lonzo probaby... his shot won't be effective in the NBA... unless he changes it, he won't be a threat at the NBA level... especially during crunch time, Lonzo's shot can't be relied on in a consistent basis.


Tell Klay that when he hit that step back over him. Dude is finally shooting like he did at UCLA. Wrong time to complain. Ingram can't hit a shot or FT to save his life.


so he makes one shot and suddenly he's the next great shooter...

that shot can't be trusted. especially during crunch time, he can't pull it off with defender sticking to him like glue. that jumper needs to go.


In December he shot 37% from 3 on over 5 attempts per game...


The NBA has a cherished legacy of players with very odd shooting forms. Purvis Short with that "rainbow" shot? Jamal Wilkes and Reggie Miller had very unorthodox shooting forms, Bill Cartwright had an ugly shot, even Shawn Marrion. That's just a few. But that doesn't mean they weren't good scorers. Being critical of Lonzo because his shooting form is odd, well, lets just say I find that kind of thinking very narrow and pedestrian.
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LakerMindLA
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:49 am    Post subject:

Lonzo yes. Ingram no.

At best, Lonzo is an elite role player on a championship quality team.

If you have the chance to trade him for a player who can be the best player on a championship team, you go for it it.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:33 am    Post subject:

LakerMindLA wrote:
Lonzo yes. Ingram no.

At best, Lonzo is an elite role player on a championship quality team.

If you have the chance to trade him for a player who can be the best player on a championship team, you go for it it.

I love your consistency. I hope Lonzo eventually wins you over even if it is with another team.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:35 pm    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
Definitely not. Here's the thing, rookies take time to develop. We can't say we want the Lakers to win now and then try to trade guys away for rookies before those guys have had a chance to develop.


I don't know man.

There's a big difference between Ingram's rookie year, vs Lonzo, Kuzma, and Hart. It depends on the guy.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:36 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
LakerMindLA wrote:
Lonzo yes. Ingram no.

At best, Lonzo is an elite role player on a championship quality team.

If you have the chance to trade him for a player who can be the best player on a championship team, you go for it it.

I love your consistency. I hope Lonzo eventually wins you over even if it is with another team.


Really? Ingram hill over Lonzo mountain? Okay.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:48 pm    Post subject:

Top 5 pick in 2018 draft ???? Lakers can get the No 27 pick and may be able to package Deng with it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:10 pm    Post subject:

Trading for a rook = giving up on the 2 max FA plan before we even get laughed at by FA's = we just dumped DLO for nothing but a rental of a KCP level player next year. That would be extremely disgusting.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:21 pm    Post subject:

LakersRGolden wrote:
Trading for a rook = giving up on the 2 max FA plan before we even get laughed at by FA's = we just dumped DLO for nothing but a rental of a KCP level player next year. That would be extremely disgusting.

Sunk cost. Make the best moves for the future.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:21 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
LakerMindLA wrote:
Lonzo yes. Ingram no.

At best, Lonzo is an elite role player on a championship quality team.

If you have the chance to trade him for a player who can be the best player on a championship team, you go for it it.

I love your consistency. I hope Lonzo eventually wins you over even if it is with another team.


Lonzo could turn into Jason Kidd. It doesn't really matter.

To win an NBA championship, you need a go to scorer. You need a very good secondary option. If have your go to scorer and secondary option, you don't need a Lonzo Ball. He is a luxury item, not a necessity.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:41 pm    Post subject:

LakerMindLA wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
LakerMindLA wrote:
Lonzo yes. Ingram no.

At best, Lonzo is an elite role player on a championship quality team.

If you have the chance to trade him for a player who can be the best player on a championship team, you go for it it.

I love your consistency. I hope Lonzo eventually wins you over even if it is with another team.


Lonzo could turn into Jason Kidd. It doesn't really matter.

To win an NBA championship, you need a go to scorer. You need a very good secondary option. If have your go to scorer and secondary option, you don't need a Lonzo Ball. He is a luxury item, not a necessity.

The Lakers have a luxury item then
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tox
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:10 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
LakerMindLA wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
LakerMindLA wrote:
Lonzo yes. Ingram no.

At best, Lonzo is an elite role player on a championship quality team.

If you have the chance to trade him for a player who can be the best player on a championship team, you go for it it.

I love your consistency. I hope Lonzo eventually wins you over even if it is with another team.


Lonzo could turn into Jason Kidd. It doesn't really matter.

To win an NBA championship, you need a go to scorer. You need a very good secondary option. If have your go to scorer and secondary option, you don't need a Lonzo Ball. He is a luxury item, not a necessity.

The Lakers have a luxury item then

I'd love to have a bunch of Lonzos surrounding, say, LeBron and Paul George anyway.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:46 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
J.C. Smith wrote:
Definitely not. Here's the thing, rookies take time to develop. We can't say we want the Lakers to win now and then try to trade guys away for rookies before those guys have had a chance to develop.


I don't know man.

There's a big difference between Ingram's rookie year, vs Lonzo, Kuzma, and Hart. It depends on the guy.


Kuzma is 22, Hart as well.

You cannot compare the rookie season of a 18-year old with a very underdeveloped body to those of grown men. Even Lonzo is athletically far ahead of Ingram.

Ingram still looks like a Bambi out there, he is a late bloomer in every aspect. Not enough mass and muscles. I think it speaks FOR him, that he even can get to the basket with that tiny frame.

I still believe: Ingram is far, far away from his ceiling. If he keeps developing athletically he will be hard to handle in 2 or 3 years. He will get a bit quicker and stronger and can shoot over anybody at his position in the league already.

And the rest of his game you can see the progress already: He sees the floor pretty well for a 20 year old - he can make plays for others. He isn't the best defender yet, but he can bother opponents with his length.

He is way, way better than last year in all aspects of the game. And to me you cannot put a ceiling to his potential until he has fully grown into his body.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:51 am    Post subject:

The question for me in rating Lonzo/BI, is what becomes of the 2 max plan.

If we get LBJ/PG13 then BI is somewhat marginalized, and Lonzo fits in (actually with any iteration).

If we get PG13/Boogie, BI fits in even if "SG" isn't PG13's ideal position.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:52 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
LakerMindLA wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
LakerMindLA wrote:
Lonzo yes. Ingram no.

At best, Lonzo is an elite role player on a championship quality team.

If you have the chance to trade him for a player who can be the best player on a championship team, you go for it it.

I love your consistency. I hope Lonzo eventually wins you over even if it is with another team.


Lonzo could turn into Jason Kidd. It doesn't really matter.

To win an NBA championship, you need a go to scorer. You need a very good secondary option. If have your go to scorer and secondary option, you don't need a Lonzo Ball. He is a luxury item, not a necessity.

The Lakers have a luxury item then

I'd love to have a bunch of Lonzos surrounding, say, LeBron and Paul George anyway.




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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:46 am    Post subject:

frank70 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
J.C. Smith wrote:
Definitely not. Here's the thing, rookies take time to develop. We can't say we want the Lakers to win now and then try to trade guys away for rookies before those guys have had a chance to develop.


I don't know man.

There's a big difference between Ingram's rookie year, vs Lonzo, Kuzma, and Hart. It depends on the guy.


Kuzma is 22, Hart as well.

You cannot compare the rookie season of a 18-year old with a very underdeveloped body to those of grown men. Even Lonzo is athletically far ahead of Ingram.

Ingram still looks like a Bambi out there, he is a late bloomer in every aspect. Not enough mass and muscles. I think it speaks FOR him, that he even can get to the basket with that tiny frame.

I still believe: Ingram is far, far away from his ceiling. If he keeps developing athletically he will be hard to handle in 2 or 3 years. He will get a bit quicker and stronger and can shoot over anybody at his position in the league already.

And the rest of his game you can see the progress already: He sees the floor pretty well for a 20 year old - he can make plays for others. He isn't the best defender yet, but he can bother opponents with his length.

He is way, way better than last year in all aspects of the game. And to me you cannot put a ceiling to his potential until he has fully grown into his body.


Disagree there too. You're looking at Hart and Kuzma. What about Jayson Tatum? Lauri Markkanen? Dennis Smith Jr? Even Donovan Mitchell turned 21 just in September. NBA bodies aren't usually built within 1-2 years.

We could go through a longer list of 18-19 year olds that were more physically ready too.

The difference isn't the physique, rather than the skill level by age with proven effectiveness.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:25 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
frank70 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
J.C. Smith wrote:
Definitely not. Here's the thing, rookies take time to develop. We can't say we want the Lakers to win now and then try to trade guys away for rookies before those guys have had a chance to develop.


I don't know man.

There's a big difference between Ingram's rookie year, vs Lonzo, Kuzma, and Hart. It depends on the guy.


Kuzma is 22, Hart as well.

You cannot compare the rookie season of a 18-year old with a very underdeveloped body to those of grown men. Even Lonzo is athletically far ahead of Ingram.

Ingram still looks like a Bambi out there, he is a late bloomer in every aspect. Not enough mass and muscles. I think it speaks FOR him, that he even can get to the basket with that tiny frame.

I still believe: Ingram is far, far away from his ceiling. If he keeps developing athletically he will be hard to handle in 2 or 3 years. He will get a bit quicker and stronger and can shoot over anybody at his position in the league already.

And the rest of his game you can see the progress already: He sees the floor pretty well for a 20 year old - he can make plays for others. He isn't the best defender yet, but he can bother opponents with his length.

He is way, way better than last year in all aspects of the game. And to me you cannot put a ceiling to his potential until he has fully grown into his body.


Disagree there too. You're looking at Hart and Kuzma. What about Jayson Tatum? Lauri Markkanen? Dennis Smith Jr? Even Donovan Mitchell turned 21 just in September. NBA bodies aren't usually built within 1-2 years.

We could go through a longer list of 18-19 year olds that were more physically ready too.

The difference isn't the physique, rather than the skill level by age with proven effectiveness.


We are not that far away. We the exemption of Markkanen, the players you mentioned are physically more matured than Ingram. Ingram can still get more athletic ... Mitchell? He lools already grown into his body.

Skills: Yes, a Tatum is more skilled right now. But you can see Ingram developing his skills from month to month. He gives quite a few guys the business already one-on-on. His drives are hard to stop without fouling and his midrange didn't look bad at all the last games. He is a late bloomer and still is able to create his own shot and gets more and more efficient.

It will take time. But how will opponents stop him in the future in the high-or low-post when they cannot push him around that much anymore and he can simply shoot right over them?

There is of course no guarantee that he reaches his ceiling. But his measurements are hard to ignore. I think of young Tracy McGrady when i see Ingram. McGrady was a non-factor in the first 2 or 3 years. Then he took off. Might happen with Ingram as well .... might not.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:36 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
I would take Trae Young #2 in this draft and UCLA Lonzo around #3-5 depending on Ayton's defensive improvement and Porter's medicals/workouts.


give me a top 5 (if Lonzo was in this draft)....


This will change before June, and I'll admit to being a prisoner of the moment, but with UCLA Ball included:

Doncic
Young
Ayton
Ball*
Porter

Then Bamba, Bagley, Sexton, JJJ, and Mikal Bridges in some order.

*- UW Fultz would be no lower than #3 for me ahead of Ayton and Ball.

I want to revise my list as follows:

1. Doncic or Ball
2. Everybody else
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:05 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
I would take Trae Young #2 in this draft and UCLA Lonzo around #3-5 depending on Ayton's defensive improvement and Porter's medicals/workouts.


give me a top 5 (if Lonzo was in this draft)....


This will change before June, and I'll admit to being a prisoner of the moment, but with UCLA Ball included:

Doncic
Young
Ayton
Ball*
Porter

Then Bamba, Bagley, Sexton, JJJ, and Mikal Bridges in some order.

*- UW Fultz would be no lower than #3 for me ahead of Ayton and Ball.

I want to revise my list as follows:

1. Doncic or Ball
2. Everybody else


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