Ball vs. DLO
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:19 pm    Post subject:

cal1piggy wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
This has gotten ugly.


unfortunately and no one commented on the salary point i wanted to discuss...

DLo being traded with Mozgov gives them the shot at a two max plan and pushes back the team's deadline to 2020 (I'd be shocked if they don't give Ingram an extension, though it may be below max), since Ball and Kuzma will get paid in 2021.

Again, it comes down to how you value a healthy Russell's upside versus having greater financial flexibility to possibly achieve more immediate and/or better results through free agency. I lean towards the former over the latter, but I can see arguments either way.


i think ingram's option is for 20/21 for 10m and ball's option is for 2021/22 for ~14m
am i correct that would give them 2018/2019, 2019/2020 years to do the 2 max plan?

when we traded dlo, were we aware of his health issues?
i think he missed ~20 games in 2016/17?

The 3rd and 4th year team options on Ingram and Ball will be exercised, so don't worry about that.

The more relevant figure for Ingram, if he and the Lakers can't agree on an extension and BI becomes a restricted free agent in July 2020, is his cap hold - 250% of his expiring salary ($7,265,485), which would be roughly $18.2M. Lonzo Ball's RFA cap hold in 2021 would be $27M(!).

So let's say the Lakers want to sign two max free agents in 2020, and only sign players such that they have no long-term money committed past 2020 (JC and Deng's contracts expire that summer) except for guys on their rookie scale contracts. I've included future 1st round picks, but excluded future 2nd round picks in this projection. Ingram wouldn't be under contract as a restricted free agent, but his $18.2M cap hold would have to be factored in. For example (with a $110M projected max cap):

2020 Salary Cap Table

Ingram - $18.2M
Ball - $11M
Kuzma - $3.6M
Hart - $3.5M
2019 1st (#10) - $3.7M
2020 1st (#15) - $2.8M
Inc. roster charge ($815,615*6) - $4.9M

Total Salaries - $47.7M
2020 Salary Cap - $110M

Available Cap Space - $62.3M

A 30% max contract player like Anthony Davis would receive a roughly $33M starting salary. So the Lakers would need $66M in cap space to bring in two max free agents in 2020 or they would have to convince the two max free agents to take slight paycuts. But the above scenario - Ingram not signing an extension, only having six players under contract in 2020 - is quite unrealistic. Effectively, the Lakers two max plan only goes through 2019 before Ingram gets paid.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:26 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
babyskyhook wrote:

Tox- the only thing that you're not accounting for is the possibility that DLO was going to have a negative effect on team chemistry. This year may have played out the same way it has if DLo was still on the team, but given his immaturity, attitude and lackadaisical approach to D, there is a very good chance he could have poisoned the locker room in a power struggle vs Zo.


We'll obviously never know for sure, but we can't assume everything would be exactly the same this year if DLo was on the team without acknowledging the strong possibility that it could have gone the other way.

I think it's possible, sure. But I don't think Russell was a cancer by any means. Immature, maybe, but that's the job of the coach to handle. It sure beats having a (bleep) convict only playing some games, and I don't think it'd be any more of a distraction than the Julius/ JC stuff hanging over the team right now.

I don't really buy into the narrative that he'd poison the locker room, personally. I've said it a million times, but the Lakers' starters last year (with (bleep) Nick Young, lazy Julius Randle, and MozDeng) were a pretty good defensive team against opponent starters in a huge a mount of minutes. So I don't agree with the conception of Russell as the non-defense playing sieve that he's often accused of in the first place -- I think he stopped playing defense once the team started tanking. That's immature and unprofessional but also sort of understandable. And I don't think he'd have been threatened by Lonzo if it were articulated that the Lakers backcourt will be Lonzo & him both, instead of (correctly) perceiving that the Lakers see Lonzo as his replacement.

It's a counterfactual so we'll never know for sure, but that's where I stand.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:28 pm    Post subject:

Lonzo is shooting better from 3 than dlo this season, so far.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:34 pm    Post subject:

LakersDC wrote:
D'Lo was my guy, but he also needed the ball a lot. It is very likely that if we still had D'Lo, Zo and BI wouldn't have progressed as much as they have. Also Mozzie's contract would still be handicapping us and we wouldn't have Kuzie.

No regrets.


The most underrated fact about Dlo
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:35 pm    Post subject:

justsomelakerfan wrote:
Lonzo is shooting better from 3 than dlo this season, so far.


Yea but all of these 3rd/4th/5th year players improving their shooting has me scared that DLo will figure his stroke out too. - and live up to the pre-draft shooting hype. He was supposed to be like, a bigger Mccullum, with passing. The knee issues are super scary though - cuz it's lingered years and he didn't look solid athletically even his rookie year
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:37 pm    Post subject:

The ship has sailed, revisit this when DLO helps a team win a playoff game.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:39 pm    Post subject:

justsomelakerfan wrote:
Lonzo is shooting better from 3 than dlo this season, so far.

Small sample size, fwiw.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:46 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
justsomelakerfan wrote:
Lonzo is shooting better from 3 than dlo this season, so far.

Small sample size, fwiw.


Considering his horrible start... that is no small feat.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:48 pm    Post subject:

h2omike wrote:
The ship has sailed, revisit this when DLO helps a team win a playoff game.


Also if we hit or miss 2018 FAs.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:51 pm    Post subject:

OregonLakerGuy wrote:
babyskyhook wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
LakerLanny wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Marginal talent was 21, 5.7, 4.7 before he got hurt.

We could use marginal talent as a backup PG.


His attitude was debatable when he was starting here.

Bringing him off the bench behind Lonzo? I think that would have been a bad idea for both players.


Eh, I'd rather have DAR than KCP.

It's been pretty clear since he joined Brooklyn that his attitude changed. So, why couldn't it change in LA?


We were all young and dumb once, but probably not making millions for playing a game and getting showered with media attention.

He had two radically different coaches and staffs in LA, but was still the same guy in both cases- he liked the NBA life but didn't want to put in the work. Sometimes you need a wake up call to change. It looks like the trade was a wake up call for him, which is good news, but I don't think he would have gotten that wake up call if he was still on the Lakers.

Instead, we could have easily had a lot of ugly behind the scenes chemistry problems, in a young players re-run of the Kobe-Dwight 2012-13 fiasco. I remain convinced that his liking of the tweet that said "Don't draft Lonzo" (or something similar that happened behind the scenes) was the straw that broke the camel's back as far as his stay in LA.

I think they were worried about DLO having a corrosive effect on team chemistry, and rightly so. This is the aspect of the trade that doesn't get discussed enough IMO.


tldr- Glad he's turned it around in BKN, but I don't think it would have happened here.


I agree it wouldn't have happened here, but I don't think that says good things about our organization.



Agreed. It was bad on both ends.

The Lakers screwed up the situation, and DLo also bears responsibility for his actions, even with the acknowledgement that we were all young and dumb once upon a time.


Oh well- water under the bridge. (Until the next thread like this pops up.)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:53 pm    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
justsomelakerfan wrote:
Lonzo is shooting better from 3 than dlo this season, so far.

Small sample size, fwiw.


Considering his horrible start... that is no small feat.


Thatís actually quite puzzling. Russell has one of the nicest and effortless strokes while Lonzoís is... Lonzoís. Russell should have the higher upside in that category.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:53 pm    Post subject:

Fun thread OP. Everyone has been civil for the most part. I'm glad it's working out.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:55 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
tox wrote:
babyskyhook wrote:

Tox- the only thing that you're not accounting for is the possibility that DLO was going to have a negative effect on team chemistry. This year may have played out the same way it has if DLo was still on the team, but given his immaturity, attitude and lackadaisical approach to D, there is a very good chance he could have poisoned the locker room in a power struggle vs Zo.


We'll obviously never know for sure, but we can't assume everything would be exactly the same this year if DLo was on the team without acknowledging the strong possibility that it could have gone the other way.

I think it's possible, sure. But I don't think Russell was a cancer by any means. Immature, maybe, but that's the job of the coach to handle. It sure beats having a (bleep) convict only playing some games, and I don't think it'd be any more of a distraction than the Julius/ JC stuff hanging over the team right now.

I don't really buy into the narrative that he'd poison the locker room, personally. I've said it a million times, but the Lakers' starters last year (with (bleep) Nick Young, lazy Julius Randle, and MozDeng) were a pretty good defensive team against opponent starters in a huge a mount of minutes. So I don't agree with the conception of Russell as the non-defense playing sieve that he's often accused of in the first place -- I think he stopped playing defense once the team started tanking. That's immature and unprofessional but also sort of understandable. And I don't think he'd have been threatened by Lonzo if it were articulated that the Lakers backcourt will be Lonzo & him both, instead of (correctly) perceiving that the Lakers see Lonzo as his replacement.

It's a counterfactual so we'll never know for sure, but that's where I stand.



I'm not saying it absolutely would have happened one way or another. My point is that this aspect is rarely discussed in our DLo trade postmortems, but I think it may have been the driving factor for the FO.

We'll never know for sure how it would have played out, but I'd bet a lot of money that the fear of a power struggle/divided locker room was a major factor in what went down.

Would love for GT to get some inside scoop on what did or didn't ultimately lead to the trade.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:00 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
This has gotten ugly.


unfortunately and no one commented on the salary point i wanted to discuss...

DLo being traded with Mozgov gives them the shot at a two max plan and pushes back the team's deadline to 2020 (I'd be shocked if they don't give Ingram an extension, though it may be below max), since Ball and Kuzma will get paid in 2021.

Again, it comes down to how you value a healthy Russell's upside versus having greater financial flexibility to possibly achieve more immediate and/or better results through free agency. I lean towards the former over the latter, but I can see arguments either way.


i think ingram's option is for 20/21 for 10m and ball's option is for 2021/22 for ~14m
am i correct that would give them 2018/2019, 2019/2020 years to do the 2 max plan?

when we traded dlo, were we aware of his health issues?
i think he missed ~20 games in 2016/17?

The 3rd and 4th year team options on Ingram and Ball will be exercised, so don't worry about that.

The more relevant figure for Ingram, if he and the Lakers can't agree on an extension and BI becomes a restricted free agent in July 2020, is his cap hold - 250% of his expiring salary ($7,265,485), which would be roughly $18.2M. Lonzo Ball's RFA cap hold in 2021 would be $27M(!).

So let's say the Lakers want to sign two max free agents in 2020, and only sign players such that they have no long-term money committed past 2020 (JC and Deng's contracts expire that summer) except for guys on their rookie scale contracts. I've included future 1st round picks, but excluded future 2nd round picks in this projection. Ingram wouldn't be under contract as a restricted free agent, but his $18.2M cap hold would have to be factored in. For example (with a $110M projected max cap):

2020 Salary Cap Table

Ingram - $18.2M
Ball - $11M
Kuzma - $3.6M
Hart - $3.5M
2019 1st (#10) - $3.7M
2020 1st (#15) - $2.8M
Inc. roster charge ($815,615*6) - $4.9M

Total Salaries - $47.7M
2020 Salary Cap - $110M

Available Cap Space - $62.3M

A 30% max contract player like Anthony Davis would receive a roughly $33M starting salary. So the Lakers would need $66M in cap space to bring in two max free agents in 2020 or they would have to convince the two max free agents to take slight paycuts. But the above scenario - Ingram not signing an extension, only having six players under contract in 2020 - is quite unrealistic. Effectively, the Lakers two max plan only goes through 2019 before Ingram gets paid.



BVH- just a small note- Bball insiders has BI's cap hold at $21.8m in 2020.

They can pull the above scenario off in 2020 depending on where the cap comes out and where their picks land, but it will be tight, and I agree with you that they'd be better off signing BI to a non-max extension before we get there.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:07 pm    Post subject:

The Nets were 5-7 when Dlo went out. To say he wasn't contributing wins is bull (bleep).
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:16 pm    Post subject:

Vancouver Fan wrote:
The Nets were 5-7 when Dlo went out. To say he wasn't contributing wins is bull (bleep).


4-8 33% with.
11-18 37% without.

Not saying it matters. They're a bad team anyway, and one guy isn't going change the record for the team. But since you posted it, just wanted to give the facts.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:22 pm    Post subject:

babyskyhook wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
This has gotten ugly.


unfortunately and no one commented on the salary point i wanted to discuss...

DLo being traded with Mozgov gives them the shot at a two max plan and pushes back the team's deadline to 2020 (I'd be shocked if they don't give Ingram an extension, though it may be below max), since Ball and Kuzma will get paid in 2021.

Again, it comes down to how you value a healthy Russell's upside versus having greater financial flexibility to possibly achieve more immediate and/or better results through free agency. I lean towards the former over the latter, but I can see arguments either way.


i think ingram's option is for 20/21 for 10m and ball's option is for 2021/22 for ~14m
am i correct that would give them 2018/2019, 2019/2020 years to do the 2 max plan?

when we traded dlo, were we aware of his health issues?
i think he missed ~20 games in 2016/17?

The 3rd and 4th year team options on Ingram and Ball will be exercised, so don't worry about that.

The more relevant figure for Ingram, if he and the Lakers can't agree on an extension and BI becomes a restricted free agent in July 2020, is his cap hold - 250% of his expiring salary ($7,265,485), which would be roughly $18.2M. Lonzo Ball's RFA cap hold in 2021 would be $27M(!).

So let's say the Lakers want to sign two max free agents in 2020, and only sign players such that they have no long-term money committed past 2020 (JC and Deng's contracts expire that summer) except for guys on their rookie scale contracts. I've included future 1st round picks, but excluded future 2nd round picks in this projection. Ingram wouldn't be under contract as a restricted free agent, but his $18.2M cap hold would have to be factored in. For example (with a $110M projected max cap):

2020 Salary Cap Table

Ingram - $18.2M
Ball - $11M
Kuzma - $3.6M
Hart - $3.5M
2019 1st (#10) - $3.7M
2020 1st (#15) - $2.8M
Inc. roster charge ($815,615*6) - $4.9M

Total Salaries - $47.7M
2020 Salary Cap - $110M

Available Cap Space - $62.3M

A 30% max contract player like Anthony Davis would receive a roughly $33M starting salary. So the Lakers would need $66M in cap space to bring in two max free agents in 2020 or they would have to convince the two max free agents to take slight paycuts. But the above scenario - Ingram not signing an extension, only having six players under contract in 2020 - is quite unrealistic. Effectively, the Lakers two max plan only goes through 2019 before Ingram gets paid.



BVH- just a small note- Bball insiders has BI's cap hold at $21.8m in 2020.

They can pull the above scenario off in 2020 depending on where the cap comes out and where their picks land, but it will be tight, and I agree with you that they'd be better off signing BI to a non-max extension before we get there.

Thanks, that's correct. His expiring salary would be below the projected league average salary in 2020, so his cap hold would be 300% of his expiring rather than 250%.

With a $22M cap hold, I agree with you wholeheartedly - try to get him to sign an extension in fall 2019 for around $22-25M starting.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:22 pm    Post subject:

epak wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
The Nets were 5-7 when Dlo went out. To say he wasn't contributing wins is bull (bleep).


4-8 33% with.
11-18 37% without.

Not saying it matters. They're a bad team anyway, and one guy isn't going change the record for the team. But since you posted it, just wanted to give the facts.
My bad. I stand corrected.

I wouldn't say a guy averaging 20.9 4.7 and 5.7 garbage. Dude was balling before he went down. Too bad it's on the nets.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:29 pm    Post subject:

epak wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
The Nets were 5-7 when Dlo went out. To say he wasn't contributing wins is bull (bleep).


4-8 33% with.
11-18 37% without.

Not saying it matters. They're a bad team anyway, and one guy isn't going change the record for the team. But since you posted it, just wanted to give the facts.


Good player but no impact. There are a few one guy that can change the game for Nets and DLo ainít one of them or will ever be. A lot of guys here canít still move on and still catching feelings when it comes to him. We have young players to build on and we have the financial flexibility. Lonzo all day everyday including holidays and ainít even that close.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:30 pm    Post subject:

55 wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
justsomelakerfan wrote:
Lonzo is shooting better from 3 than dlo this season, so far.

Small sample size, fwiw.


Considering his horrible start... that is no small feat.


Thatís actually quite puzzling. Russell has one of the nicest and effortless strokes while Lonzoís is... Lonzoís. Russell should have the higher upside in that category.

I'd have to check the data, but from a few games I watched, he seemed to be taking mostly unassisted threes off the bounce, which he's mostly struggled at since entering the league. He may have adjusted over time if he had stayed healthy.

With Dinwiddie emerging, I expect Russell's USG% to drop below Westbrook levels and he'll take more assisted 3PA, which should raise his percentage (as it does for most players).
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:31 pm    Post subject:

CRoost wrote:
epak wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
The Nets were 5-7 when Dlo went out. To say he wasn't contributing wins is bull (bleep).


4-8 33% with.
11-18 37% without.

Not saying it matters. They're a bad team anyway, and one guy isn't going change the record for the team. But since you posted it, just wanted to give the facts.


Good player but no impact. There are a few one guy that can change the game for Nets and DLo ainít one of them or will ever be. A lot of guys here canít still move on and still catching feelings when it comes to him. We have young players to build on and we have the financial flexibility. Lonzo all day everyday including holidays and ainít even that close.
Lol. Uh huh.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:32 pm    Post subject:

Vancouver Fan wrote:
CRoost wrote:
epak wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
The Nets were 5-7 when Dlo went out. To say he wasn't contributing wins is bull (bleep).


4-8 33% with.
11-18 37% without.

Not saying it matters. They're a bad team anyway, and one guy isn't going change the record for the team. But since you posted it, just wanted to give the facts.


Good player but no impact. There are a few one guy that can change the game for Nets and DLo ainít one of them or will ever be. A lot of guys here canít still move on and still catching feelings when it comes to him. We have young players to build on and we have the financial flexibility. Lonzo all day everyday including holidays and ainít even that close.
Lol. Uh huh.

Vancouver, quick, ask Biff Tannen there if Trump gets impeached.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:41 pm    Post subject:

Vancouver Fan wrote:
epak wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
The Nets were 5-7 when Dlo went out. To say he wasn't contributing wins is bull (bleep).


4-8 33% with.
11-18 37% without.

Not saying it matters. They're a bad team anyway, and one guy isn't going change the record for the team. But since you posted it, just wanted to give the facts.
My bad. I stand corrected.

I wouldn't say a guy averaging 20.9 4.7 and 5.7 garbage. Dude was balling before he went down. Too bad it's on the nets.


I'm not a big fan of DLO, but I'm not gonna say he sucks.
I was rooting for him when he was here.
Before he was traded I was excited about the Lonzo/Russell backcourt.
When he was traded, I was OK with it.
I can't sneeze at a guy who's putting up 20/5/6.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:51 pm    Post subject:

Given the lay of the land at the time of the Dlo trade and considering all factors, I believed it was the right move at the time. And if we get two legit max free agents, I can live with the outcome no matter what. Ultimately, they are playing a hand, and if they get the two maxes, I just believe that it will have been worth it. But make no mistake about it, if we fail to land a major free agent in the next year or two, it will have been a big-time miss by the FO.

And just to weigh in on the title of the thread, I'm taking That Ball Boy over Dlo any day.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:57 pm    Post subject:

Rather have Lonzo, but I miss D'lo's easy in scoring the basketball.
Don't miss the lack of commitment on D though.
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