Ball vs. DLO
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:58 pm    Post subject:

Let's forget DLo for a second. What young PGs drafted since 2011 would you take over Lonzo in their (projected) primes?
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cal1piggy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:00 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
This has gotten ugly.


unfortunately and no one commented on the salary point i wanted to discuss...

DLo being traded with Mozgov gives them the shot at a two max plan and pushes back the team's deadline to 2020 (I'd be shocked if they don't give Ingram an extension, though it may be below max), since Ball and Kuzma will get paid in 2021.

Again, it comes down to how you value a healthy Russell's upside versus having greater financial flexibility to possibly achieve more immediate and/or better results through free agency. I lean towards the former over the latter, but I can see arguments either way.


i think ingram's option is for 20/21 for 10m and ball's option is for 2021/22 for ~14m
am i correct that would give them 2018/2019, 2019/2020 years to do the 2 max plan?

when we traded dlo, were we aware of his health issues?
i think he missed ~20 games in 2016/17?

The 3rd and 4th year team options on Ingram and Ball will be exercised, so don't worry about that.

The more relevant figure for Ingram, if he and the Lakers can't agree on an extension and BI becomes a restricted free agent in July 2020, is his cap hold - 250% of his expiring salary ($7,265,485), which would be roughly $18.2M. Lonzo Ball's RFA cap hold in 2021 would be $27M(!).

So let's say the Lakers want to sign two max free agents in 2020, and only sign players such that they have no long-term money committed past 2020 (JC and Deng's contracts expire that summer) except for guys on their rookie scale contracts. I've included future 1st round picks, but excluded future 2nd round picks in this projection. Ingram wouldn't be under contract as a restricted free agent, but his $18.2M cap hold would have to be factored in. For example (with a $110M projected max cap):

2020 Salary Cap Table

Ingram - $18.2M
Ball - $11M
Kuzma - $3.6M
Hart - $3.5M
2019 1st (#10) - $3.7M
2020 1st (#15) - $2.8M
Inc. roster charge ($815,615*6) - $4.9M

Total Salaries - $47.7M
2020 Salary Cap - $110M

Available Cap Space - $62.3M

A 30% max contract player like Anthony Davis would receive a roughly $33M starting salary. So the Lakers would need $66M in cap space to bring in two max free agents in 2020 or they would have to convince the two max free agents to take slight paycuts. But the above scenario - Ingram not signing an extension, only having six players under contract in 2020 - is quite unrealistic. Effectively, the Lakers two max plan only goes through 2019 before Ingram gets paid.


thanks.
one more complication.
if we sign 2 max fa in 2019 and we sign ball, bi and kuz for their big $ extensions, we would be ~$150m for 5 players...
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Daphanabe
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:00 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Let's forget DLo for a second. What young PGs drafted since 2011 would you take over Lonzo in their (projected) primes?


I'd still go Lonzo as I think his ceiling is very high, but maybe Kyrie?
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tox
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:02 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Let's forget DLo for a second. What young PGs drafted since 2011 would you take over Lonzo in their (projected) primes?

Since 2005. I said it.
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epak
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:03 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Let's forget DLo for a second. What young PGs drafted since 2011 would you take over Lonzo in their (projected) primes?


Greek Freak?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:05 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Let's forget DLo for a second. What young PGs drafted since 2011 would you take over Lonzo in their (projected) primes?


Well, literally the first possible player under this criteria that was drafted was Kyrie Irving, and I would have to take him over Lonzo. Other than that, the only other player that I think you can even make a case for is Damian Lillard, but I think Lonzo has more value as a commodity right now than he does. Other than that...

Andrew Goudelock?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:09 pm    Post subject:

epak wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Let's forget DLo for a second. What young PGs drafted since 2011 would you take over Lonzo in their (projected) primes?


Greek Freak?


Simmons too, if he counts.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:13 pm    Post subject:

^
I didn't consider Giannis or Simmons here, since I don't think that's an apples-to-apples comparison.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:25 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
^
I didn't consider Giannis or Simmons here, since I don't think that's an apples-to-apples comparison.


I'm less high on Lillard that I used to be, simply because his main contribution is scoring but his field goal percentage is in the low forties. Not sure I would swap Ball for Lillard if offered, even with salary cap considerations aside.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:28 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
^
I didn't consider Giannis or Simmons here, since I don't think that's an apples-to-apples comparison.


I'm less high on Lillard that I used to be, simply because his main contribution is scoring but his field goal percentage is in the low forties. Not sure I would swap Ball for Lillard if offered, even with salary cap considerations aside.


Yeah, I wouldn't. He's the only other player besides Kyrie that I would even consider in that question, though. (Again, not counting non-pure/traditional PG's like Giannis and Simmons.)
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cal1piggy
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:28 am    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
^
I didn't consider Giannis or Simmons here, since I don't think that's an apples-to-apples comparison.


i would include simmons because he can play d on guards pretty well.

ball's shooting if the improvement continues would be an unbelievably great player.
if simmons can learn to shoot, that would be truly truly scary.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:46 am    Post subject:

cal1piggy wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
^
I didn't consider Giannis or Simmons here, since I don't think that's an apples-to-apples comparison.


i would include simmons because he can play d on guards pretty well.

ball's shooting if the improvement continues would be an unbelievably great player.
if simmons can learn to shoot, that would be truly truly scary.


I'll say it first Ball > Simmonds (who is just too relant on athelticism)

The only PG prospect close to Ball recently (maybe even a higher prospect) is in this years draft named Trae Young.

Ball = Lebron / Kidd hybrid
Trae Young = Curry / Kevin Johnson hybrid
Simmonds = Super Lamar Odom

take your pick, the NBA is going to be in good hands....
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M2K
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:48 am    Post subject:

Lonzo Ball is far and away a better PG than DLO could ever hope to be.

But Championship are not won with a great PG and nothing else. They are won with talented rosters and chemistry.

By sending DLO, a young talented PG/SG player out on a salary dump, Magic is believes its a better gamble that the Lakers will sign a big time free agent than the possibility emerging of a dynamic backcourt of DLO and Ball for the next decade.

Hopefully, Magic choice of which gamble to take on... will pay off. Because, either way, he'll own the outcome.

That fact that DLO, at the age of 21, has shown signs of being a really good player AND not many top tier, veteran free agents sign on with losing teams... are two signs that Magic made a mistake.

However, if you believe in karma... striking gold with Kuzma as a result of the trade... maybe signs of things to come.

The jury is still out on the trade.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:11 am    Post subject:

I initially hated the Nets trade with a passion. I believed Zo and a healthy DLo would've been a awesome tandem and still do. However, if DLo's knee issues turn out to be a recurring problem, Magic will be proven to be completely justified with pulling the trigger on this deal.
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Last edited by LandsbergerRules on Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:19 am    Post subject:

I sort of approach the DLO issue in that we traded for cap space created by unloading Mozgov, for hopefully a better free agent than we received in Mozgov this next offseason.

DLO himself is replaced by Kuzma. Long-term, who do I think is the better player and teammate for our getting back into contention? I choose Kuzma over DLO.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:40 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Sometimes you need a wake up call to change.


Yeah I can agree with that. I guess I just felt the chemistry from the Vegas team carry onto the current team and maybe DAR would be a part of it.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:31 am    Post subject:

The wake up call angle bugs me a bit, to be honest.

1) Are you sure we aren't talking about the same guy, under different circumstances? Because I see a lot of parallels between how the Lakers have handled Randle this season and how they handled Russell.

2) Is a 21-year old gradually maturing really that unusual? If he's a little more grown up now than he was a year ago or two years ago...wouldn't you expect that? Conversely, how likely is it that he's a completely different person altogether as a result of the trade? That seems a little less plausible.

3) The trade was not a punishment for Russell. It's hard to see that as Laker fans, but he went from an organization that misunderstood what type of player he was, and one (along with the fans) who scapegoated him for other, very real problems. BKN embraces him and understand what type of player he is. Going from the Lakers to Brooklyn was an upgrade for him, even if that's difficult for Laker fans to swallow.

What's always bothered me the most about the situation is some Laker fans' refusal to acknowledge the organization's contributions to the problems they've had and either point the finger at the players or the Jim/Mitch boogeyman.

Thank God for Lonzo though, he's a great cologne.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:33 am    Post subject:

kobe_somebody_odom wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
^
I didn't consider Giannis or Simmons here, since I don't think that's an apples-to-apples comparison.


i would include simmons because he can play d on guards pretty well.

ball's shooting if the improvement continues would be an unbelievably great player.
if simmons can learn to shoot, that would be truly truly scary.


I'll say it first Ball > Simmonds (who is just too relant on athelticism)

The only PG prospect close to Ball recently (maybe even a higher prospect) is in this years draft named Trae Young.

Ball = Lebron / Kidd hybrid
Trae Young = Curry / Kevin Johnson hybrid
Simmonds = Super Lamar Odom

take your pick, the NBA is going to be in good hands....


i agree currently simmons is limited by inability to shoot. but is there anything that makes him different than lebron and kidd who learned over time to shoot?

if i need to make a choice between ball and simmons, tough choice.
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cal1piggy
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:41 am    Post subject:

M2K wrote:
Lonzo Ball is far and away a better PG than DLO could ever hope to be.

But Championship are not won with a great PG and nothing else. They are won with talented rosters and chemistry.

By sending DLO, a young talented PG/SG player out on a salary dump, Magic is believes its a better gamble that the Lakers will sign a big time free agent than the possibility emerging of a dynamic backcourt of DLO and Ball for the next decade.

Hopefully, Magic choice of which gamble to take on... will pay off. Because, either way, he'll own the outcome.

That fact that DLO, at the age of 21, has shown signs of being a really good player AND not many top tier, veteran free agents sign on with losing teams... are two signs that Magic made a mistake.

However, if you believe in karma... striking gold with Kuzma as a result of the trade... maybe signs of things to come.

The jury is still out on the trade.


another question is kuz vs. dlo
who has the higher ceiling and the better player.

for me, dlo has the higher ceiling due to his ability to shoot tough shoots in big moments but also higher risk due to his knees.

they play different positions, but dlo seems better in pick and roll. however, kuz seems better driving to the basket possibly due to more athleticism.

in regular play, i would trust kuz a little more in catch and shoot, but i would prefer dlo doing the shooting particularly if contested.

defense to me is a wash.

can kuz shoot better when contested? hopefully.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:11 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Let's forget DLo for a second. What young PGs drafted since 2011 would you take over Lonzo in their (projected) primes?


Simmons. And I preferred and still prefer prospect DLO to prospect Ball. #neverforget
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:25 pm    Post subject:

we're shooting 25% from 3
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:34 pm    Post subject:

no brainer. lonzo>dlo...only thing dlo does better than lonzo ball right imo is shoot consistently..once lonzo gets better at that, its even more of a no-brainer.

dlo is not a leader.
dlo doesnt play with the higest bball iq.
his body is fragile and i called that before he got hurt.
he's too immature..hopefully he gets better with that.
his defense isnt anything to brag about and having him in the backcourt with ball would have been a mistake.
getting rid of dlo also help us go after pope, develop hart, and give jc playing time, all things we needed to do for various different reasons.

your honor, please dismiss this case!
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:48 pm    Post subject:

plus NO ONE wanted to play with DLo... As prayed for, this case is hereby DISMISSED
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:08 pm    Post subject:

Things are starting to heat up here, and no game until Monday? At least we've won 4 in a row or this thread could have morphed into some serious poop flinging and finger pointing.

Yin, how you holding up my dude?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:53 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
The wake up call angle bugs me a bit, to be honest.

1) Are you sure we aren't talking about the same guy, under different circumstances? Because I see a lot of parallels between how the Lakers have handled Randle this season and how they handled Russell.

2) Is a 21-year old gradually maturing really that unusual? If he's a little more grown up now than he was a year ago or two years ago...wouldn't you expect that? Conversely, how likely is it that he's a completely different person altogether as a result of the trade? That seems a little less plausible.

3) The trade was not a punishment for Russell. It's hard to see that as Laker fans, but he went from an organization that misunderstood what type of player he was, and one (along with the fans) who scapegoated him for other, very real problems. BKN embraces him and understand what type of player he is. Going from the Lakers to Brooklyn was an upgrade for him, even if that's difficult for Laker fans to swallow.

What's always bothered me the most about the situation is some Laker fans' refusal to acknowledge the organization's contributions to the problems they've had and either point the finger at the players or the Jim/Mitch boogeyman.

Thank God for Lonzo though, he's a great cologne.


At this point I dont think there is a place for DLO talk outside of the general basketball forum. There are people here who are going to use DLO to prop up Ball and it's really a discussion that can go no where. Might as well have threads talking about if Garnett got to play with Kobe.
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