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OregonLakerGuy Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2005 Posts: 13207 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:28 am Post subject: |
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I never thought of it as Russell versus Ball. I was interested in seeing them in the same backcourt. I was told over and over that couldn't happen because they would be too weak defensively. Now we see that Ball actually has defensive chops and those arguments have disappeared. If we had simply waited before dumping Russell for cap space, maybe we could have had the best backcourt in the NBA for years to come. We will never know if that would have panned out. I think that we are unlikely to be able to have a pair of young guards with that much talent for a long time to come.
Russell vs. Ball was always the wrong question. |
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ice_cold Starting Rotation
Joined: 22 Jul 2014 Posts: 483
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:15 am Post subject: |
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Hydro21 wrote: | LakersDC wrote: | D'Lo was my guy, but he also needed the ball a lot. It is very likely that if we still had D'Lo, Zo and BI wouldn't have progressed as much as they have. Also Mozzie's contract would still be handicapping us and we wouldn't have Kuzie.
No regrets. |
The most underrated fact about Dlo |
I don't know. I feel like good players can adjust. DLo,also is extremely good off the ball
Sort of seems like the argument that CP3 and Harden couldn't play together ... |
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Drifts Retired Number
Joined: 22 Nov 2004 Posts: 28374
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:33 am Post subject: |
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coming from someone who is not a fan of Ball's shooting, I say Ball is way way way better than Russell in all levels of the game.
add the fact that Lonzo Ball is a team player. He gets all players involved in the offense, so team chemistry is a lot better with him running the show.
Ball also listens to coaches and does not complain about playing time. I was specially impressed when he was benched and he took it like a man... Lavar on the other hand... LOL _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
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Ujah's Goat Star Player
Joined: 01 Jun 2016 Posts: 1417 Location: Babylon
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:15 am Post subject: |
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Randle30 wrote: | plus NO ONE wanted to play with DLo... As prayed for, this case is hereby DISMISSED |
To anyone who actually watches games, it is clear that Lonzo is head and shoulders above D'Lo in his decision making and getting guys involved. He impacts the games in so many ways superior to D'Lo: passing lanes, transition, defense, help defense, tempo, lower usage. It is obvious why guys in the league, including LeBron Steph KD George Westbrook - aka the BEST players in the league - are raving about Lonzo. Lonzo WAY over D'Lo for me.
Most in this thread keep talking about D'Lo stats he's putting up on a garbage team in the East (and prior to that, in the West), when the issues with D'Lo had nothing to do with his game and everything to do with his attitude & injuries. D'Lo's defenders here talk about BScott, KFT, and crappy situation he was put in. What about Russell's multiple spats with his teammates, coaches, and players around the league? And what about when he liked the Twitter comment about the Lakers not drafting Lonzo? Completely unacceptable behavior which screams of his pettiness.
Though I was a huge supporter of D'Lo while he was here and badly wanted to see him paired up with Lonzo, I am glad he is no longer with the Lakers so both parties can get fresh starts.
Last edited by Ujah's Goat on Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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LakerEric Star Player
Joined: 03 May 2002 Posts: 7193 Location: Vegas
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:20 am Post subject: |
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DLO was a shooter and can be lethal when he's on. That was his impact level. There were the knee concerns. He was at his best with the ball in his hands and finding his shot. That's just a fact. _________________ Do you believe it now, Trinity? - Morpheous |
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Drifts Retired Number
Joined: 22 Nov 2004 Posts: 28374
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:25 am Post subject: |
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LakerEric wrote: | DLO was a shooter and can be lethal when he's on. That was his impact level. There were the knee concerns. He was at his best with the ball in his hands and finding his shot. That's just a fact. |
he is a slow non-athletic 40% shooter... I don't see the "lethal" in that . _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
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waterman40 Star Player
Joined: 17 Jun 2003 Posts: 6280 Location: Central Coast
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:53 am Post subject: |
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I think the non-athletic factor was big too. It's one thing if you are a Steve Kerr on a Michael Jordan led stacked Bulls team or LBJ Heat team, but as the leader of a very young Lakers team? Throw in some balky knees, and the front office cut their losses. _________________ LAKERS 2019-2020: NBA World Champions! |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:03 am Post subject: |
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Lulz. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:29 am Post subject: |
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Is Dave20 on LG under a new handle? I'd love to hear his thoughts on the subject. |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:01 am Post subject: |
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It took longer than I expected it to, but we got there. |
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cal1piggy Star Player
Joined: 19 Jul 2017 Posts: 2584
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:18 am Post subject: |
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waterman40 wrote: | I think the non-athletic factor was big too. It's one thing if you are a Steve Kerr on a Michael Jordan led stacked Bulls team or LBJ Heat team, but as the leader of a very young Lakers team? Throw in some balky knees, and the front office cut their losses. |
yea, ball seems like the better pg to me.
now may be the better comp is dlo and kuz as a scorer (27th pick )
catch and shoot - kuz
shooting under duress - dlo
athleticism - kuz
pick and roll - dlo
drives to the basket - kuz
assists for their position - slight edge to dlo
rebounding for their position - dlo
defense - even
health - kuz (knock on wood)
perhaps the most critical skill is ice in the vein shooting for a championship team skill - i would give that to dlo right now, but kuz can improve. for day-to-day consistent shooting, i would give it to kuz - so may be the last minute shots may be less necessary |
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LakerLanny Retired Number
Joined: 24 Oct 2001 Posts: 47565
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:42 am Post subject: |
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Ujah's Goat wrote: |
To anyone who actually watches games, it is clear that Lonzo is head and shoulders above D'Lo in his decision making and getting guys involved. He impacts the games in so many ways superior to D'Lo: passing lanes, transition, defense, help defense, tempo, lower usage. It is obvious why guys in the league, including LeBron Steph KD George Westbrook - aka the BEST players in the league - are raving about Lonzo. Lonzo WAY over D'Lo for me.
Most in this thread keep talking about D'Lo stats he's putting up on a garbage team in the East (and prior to that, in the West), when the issues with D'Lo had nothing to do with his game and everything to do with his attitude & injuries. D'Lo's defenders here talk about BScott, KFT, and crappy situation he was put in. What about Russell's multiple spats with his teammates, coaches, and players around the league? And what about when he liked the Twitter comment about the Lakers not drafting Lonzo? Completely unacceptable behavior which screams of his pettiness.
Though I was a huge supporter of D'Lo while he was here and badly wanted to see him paired up with Lonzo, I am glad he is no longer with the Lakers so both parties can get fresh starts. |
Well stated and concur. _________________ Love, Laker Lanny |
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PurpleAndGOAT Star Player
Joined: 03 Feb 2015 Posts: 1351 Location: City of Angels
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:43 am Post subject: |
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I go with Lonzo easily, no bias. He just has way more of a positive impact on the game and does more for the team. _________________ Lake Show |
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Fortysixn2 Star Player
Joined: 22 Jun 2016 Posts: 2849
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:50 am Post subject: |
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LakerEric wrote: | DLO was a shooter and can be lethal when he's on. That was his impact level. There were the knee concerns. He was at his best with the ball in his hands and finding his shot. That's just a fact. |
For the record, Lonzo’s 3pt% is higher than DLOs this season. That speaks more about DLO’s poor shooting than Lonzo being good at it.
If DLO’s main advantage over Ball is his shooting, it’s currently not much of an advantage...and ball, started out poorly but has improved his shooting. Aside from Shooting, Ball is superior in all aspects of the game.
DLO is going to have to shoot 40+% from 3 and score 23+ points a game to sniff an all star team...Lonzo, if he just brings his shooting to 43/35 will be in the all star game. No comparison, Lonzo has a much higher celling. |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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Ujah's Goat wrote: | Randle30 wrote: | plus NO ONE wanted to play with DLo... As prayed for, this case is hereby DISMISSED |
To anyone who actually watches games, it is clear that Lonzo is head and shoulders above D'Lo in his decision making and getting guys involved. He impacts the games in so many ways superior to D'Lo: passing lanes, transition, defense, help defense, tempo, lower usage. It is obvious why guys in the league, including LeBron Steph KD George Westbrook - aka the BEST players in the league - are raving about Lonzo. Lonzo WAY over D'Lo for me.
Most in this thread keep talking about D'Lo stats he's putting up on a garbage team in the East (and prior to that, in the West), when the issues with D'Lo had nothing to do with his game and everything to do with his attitude & injuries. D'Lo's defenders here talk about BScott, KFT, and crappy situation he was put in. What about Russell's multiple spats with his teammates, coaches, and players around the league? And what about when he liked the Twitter comment about the Lakers not drafting Lonzo? Completely unacceptable behavior which screams of his pettiness.
Though I was a huge supporter of D'Lo while he was here and badly wanted to see him paired up with Lonzo, I am glad he is no longer with the Lakers so both parties can get fresh starts. |
Why are Russell's stats considered to be part of garbage teams, but Lonzo's aren't? So much of what's been posted here is way too reductive. |
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LandsbergerRules Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Is Dave20 on LG under a new handle? I'd love to hear his thoughts on the subject. |
Dave would've said JC aka Westbrook 2.0 is waaaaaay better than either Zo or DLo. _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him |
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LandsbergerRules Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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OregonLakerGuy wrote: | I never thought of it as Russell versus Ball. I was interested in seeing them in the same backcourt. I was told over and over that couldn't happen because they would be too weak defensively. Now we see that Ball actually has defensive chops and those arguments have disappeared. If we had simply waited before dumping Russell for cap space, maybe we could have had the best backcourt in the NBA for years to come. We will never know if that would have panned out. I think that we are unlikely to be able to have a pair of young guards with that much talent for a long time to come.
Russell vs. Ball was always the wrong question. |
Yeah, same here. Zo with a healthy DLo would've been a formidable backcourt imo. DLo's knee problems are why I think the trade might not have been a mistake after all, though. _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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Fortysixn2 wrote: | LakerEric wrote: | DLO was a shooter and can be lethal when he's on. That was his impact level. There were the knee concerns. He was at his best with the ball in his hands and finding his shot. That's just a fact. |
For the record, Lonzo’s 3pt% is higher than DLOs this season. That speaks more about DLO’s poor shooting than Lonzo being good at it.
If DLO’s main advantage over Ball is his shooting, it’s currently not much of an advantage...and ball, started out poorly but has improved his shooting. Aside from Shooting, Ball is superior in all aspects of the game.
DLO is going to have to shoot 40+% from 3 and score 23+ points a game to sniff an all star team...Lonzo, if he just brings his shooting to 43/35 will be in the all star game. No comparison, Lonzo has a much higher celling. |
If we're going off of 12 games, does this mean that Russell is one of the very best players in the NBA at driving to the basket too? Because he's averaging 12.3 drives per game this year, which is more than LeBron, Giannis, Kyrie, and amongst the most in the league. He's shooting 53.9 TS% on a whopping 35.9%, and is scoring the 7th most Points Per 100 Possessions in the NBA.
I'm just wondering if we get to draw conclusions in both directions based on these 12 games. |
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cal1piggy Star Player
Joined: 19 Jul 2017 Posts: 2584
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | Ujah's Goat wrote: | Randle30 wrote: | plus NO ONE wanted to play with DLo... As prayed for, this case is hereby DISMISSED |
To anyone who actually watches games, it is clear that Lonzo is head and shoulders above D'Lo in his decision making and getting guys involved. He impacts the games in so many ways superior to D'Lo: passing lanes, transition, defense, help defense, tempo, lower usage. It is obvious why guys in the league, including LeBron Steph KD George Westbrook - aka the BEST players in the league - are raving about Lonzo. Lonzo WAY over D'Lo for me.
Most in this thread keep talking about D'Lo stats he's putting up on a garbage team in the East (and prior to that, in the West), when the issues with D'Lo had nothing to do with his game and everything to do with his attitude & injuries. D'Lo's defenders here talk about BScott, KFT, and crappy situation he was put in. What about Russell's multiple spats with his teammates, coaches, and players around the league? And what about when he liked the Twitter comment about the Lakers not drafting Lonzo? Completely unacceptable behavior which screams of his pettiness.
Though I was a huge supporter of D'Lo while he was here and badly wanted to see him paired up with Lonzo, I am glad he is no longer with the Lakers so both parties can get fresh starts. |
Why are Russell's stats considered to be part of garbage teams, but Lonzo's aren't? So much of what's been posted here is way too reductive. |
well this year's team has substantial talent and has consistently given top teams trouble this year (yes injuries). the slump coincided with lonzo's injury, which tells you how valuable lonzo is. before the injury, it felt like the team was taking the next step. |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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cal1piggy wrote: | well this year's team has substantial talent and has consistently given top teams trouble this year (yes injuries). the slump coincided with lonzo's injury, which tells you how valuable lonzo is. before the injury, it felt like the team was taking the next step. |
And the Lakers' slump last year coincided with Russell's injury. I'm not even trying to argue that Russell is more valuable than Lonzo (he's not), but the double standards have always been crazy with that dude. |
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cal1piggy Star Player
Joined: 19 Jul 2017 Posts: 2584
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | cal1piggy wrote: | well this year's team has substantial talent and has consistently given top teams trouble this year (yes injuries). the slump coincided with lonzo's injury, which tells you how valuable lonzo is. before the injury, it felt like the team was taking the next step. |
And the Lakers' slump last year coincided with Russell's injury. I'm not even trying to argue that Russell is more valuable than Lonzo (he's not), but the double standards have always been crazy with that dude. |
i dont know the characters here. it does feel like the current team is substantially better than the one last year. not all lonzo, since we did bring in vets like kcp and lopez instead of moz and whoever else we had last year.
if this team makes a big run, i would not be surprised. |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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cal1piggy wrote: | GoldenThroat wrote: | cal1piggy wrote: | well this year's team has substantial talent and has consistently given top teams trouble this year (yes injuries). the slump coincided with lonzo's injury, which tells you how valuable lonzo is. before the injury, it felt like the team was taking the next step. |
And the Lakers' slump last year coincided with Russell's injury. I'm not even trying to argue that Russell is more valuable than Lonzo (he's not), but the double standards have always been crazy with that dude. |
i dont know the characters here. it does feel like the current team is substantially better than the one last year. not all lonzo, since we did bring in vets like kcp and lopez instead of moz and whoever else we had last year.
if this team makes a big run, i would not be surprised. |
This team is better than last year's team. It was always going to be better than last year's team, because it's a team that's mostly comprised of really young guys and really young guys gradually get better. Similar to how the '16 team won 9 more games than the year before.
The Lakers are currently on pace for a 29-win season, after a 26-win season last year. I could see a big run too, but that's a hope rather than a reality at this point. |
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Ujah's Goat Star Player
Joined: 01 Jun 2016 Posts: 1417 Location: Babylon
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | cal1piggy wrote: | well this year's team has substantial talent and has consistently given top teams trouble this year (yes injuries). the slump coincided with lonzo's injury, which tells you how valuable lonzo is. before the injury, it felt like the team was taking the next step. |
And the Lakers' slump last year coincided with Russell's injury. I'm not even trying to argue that Russell is more valuable than Lonzo (he's not), but the double standards have always been crazy with that dude. |
Nothing in my post that you responded to was a double standard. In case you missed it,
Quote: | Most in this thread keep talking about D'Lo stats he's putting up on a garbage team in the East (and prior to that, in the West), when the issues with D'Lo had nothing to do with his game and everything to do with his attitude & injuries. |
Context, my friend. |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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Ujah's Goat wrote: | GoldenThroat wrote: | cal1piggy wrote: | well this year's team has substantial talent and has consistently given top teams trouble this year (yes injuries). the slump coincided with lonzo's injury, which tells you how valuable lonzo is. before the injury, it felt like the team was taking the next step. |
And the Lakers' slump last year coincided with Russell's injury. I'm not even trying to argue that Russell is more valuable than Lonzo (he's not), but the double standards have always been crazy with that dude. |
Nothing in my post that you responded to was a double standard. In case you missed it,
Quote: | Most in this thread keep talking about D'Lo stats he's putting up on a garbage team in the East (and prior to that, in the West), when the issues with D'Lo had nothing to do with his game and everything to do with his attitude & injuries. |
Context, my friend. |
Fair enough, but my quibble was your point about Russell putting up stats on a garbage team, when that's what Lonzo (who again, is more impactful) has done thus far as well. That seems like a double standard to me, while acknowledging other fair points, although I think the attitude stuff is a two-way street. Again, there's been nothing but praise for him from Brooklyn since he got there, and if that's simply a function of wanting to keep any issues in house...why couldn't the Lakers do that too? |
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cal1piggy Star Player
Joined: 19 Jul 2017 Posts: 2584
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | cal1piggy wrote: | GoldenThroat wrote: | cal1piggy wrote: | well this year's team has substantial talent and has consistently given top teams trouble this year (yes injuries). the slump coincided with lonzo's injury, which tells you how valuable lonzo is. before the injury, it felt like the team was taking the next step. |
And the Lakers' slump last year coincided with Russell's injury. I'm not even trying to argue that Russell is more valuable than Lonzo (he's not), but the double standards have always been crazy with that dude. |
i dont know the characters here. it does feel like the current team is substantially better than the one last year. not all lonzo, since we did bring in vets like kcp and lopez instead of moz and whoever else we had last year.
if this team makes a big run, i would not be surprised. |
This team is better than last year's team. It was always going to be better than last year's team, because it's a team that's mostly comprised of really young guys and really young guys gradually get better. Similar to how the '16 team won 9 more games than the year before.
The Lakers are currently on pace for a 29-win season, after a 26-win season last year. I could see a big run too, but that's a hope rather than a reality at this point. |
that is all true but we need to project a bit also.
if lonzo was not injured, the 7 game losing streak could easily have been 50-50.
if so, we may currently have gone 7-3 in the last 10 games.
when lonzo is playing, it is not a garbage team.
what is the record when lonzo is not injured?
furthermore, the team would be showing progress in the w-l over time also. |
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