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venturalakersfan
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 Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerMindLA wrote: | | Capt.Skyhook wrote: | I can't imagine what the pitch would be to get PG to come here all by himself. "Come help us contend for a playoff spot."
This is a 2 max plan and I doubt Magic has seen enough from this group to feel he should deviate from that. |
You sell him on a 2 to 3 year plan. You sell him on a chance to create a legacy. In reality, unless he joins the Warriors, he isn't going to find a team next year that is going to win it all. He can stay with OKC and see that team get worse, not better. What other team has young, exciting talent and the cap-space to sign him and another max player this year or next?
Year 1: Lonzo, PG13, Ingram, Kuzma, Randle, Hart - that might be enough to be a 4-5 seed in the West.
Year 2: Lonzo, PG13, Ingram, Kuzma, Randle, Hart + 2nd Max player- you're now talking about a legit championship contender. |
He will likely want 3 years with a player opt out after 2. He will have 10 years in and be eligible for a 35% max. If he thinks we were screwing around with him, he gets it somewhere else.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerMindLA wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: |
KCP and Randle think they are worth more than 13 million... KCP dumbly rejected 80 million for five I think. |
Yup. This is probably the worst offseason to be a FA in the last decade.
I would not be surprised if Randle signs for the qualifying offer. |
It only takes 1 team being interested.
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Dr. Laker
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Fortysixn2 wrote: | | CantStopJM wrote: | How about we don't keep either of them?
If we can move on from Russell who was 2x the player either of them were/are, we can move on from Randle and we can definitely move on from Clarkson. |
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Bingo. KCP is hot garbage offensively and Randle doesn't fit (stop with the "he can guard 1-5 and is a 20/15 player if Luke gives him minutes" crap).
Go with the 2-max plan.
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Vanquish
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | Fortysixn2 wrote: | | CantStopJM wrote: | How about we don't keep either of them?
If we can move on from Russell who was 2x the player either of them were/are, we can move on from Randle and we can definitely move on from Clarkson. |
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Bingo. KCP is hot garbage offensively and Randle doesn't fit (stop with the "he can guard 1-5 and is a 20/15 player if Luke gives him minutes" crap).
Go with the 2-max plan. |
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CantStopJM
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Even if we strike out with the 2 max FA, still move on from Randle and Clarkson. Especially Clarkson. |
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ChickenBeckerman
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| seriously fellas. we gotta keep BOTH these guys |
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenBeckerman wrote: | | seriously fellas. we gotta keep BOTH these guys |
Our record is 79 and 211 with them. Until this game we were winless without Lonzo. They both have their skills but it is ridiculously optimistic to think that these two plus Lonzo and Ingram will compete for titles. If we sign the two max FAs and can find a way to keep one of them... sure, why not... but by no means should they be the primary goal. Maybe fall back plan #57. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | ChickenBeckerman wrote: | | seriously fellas. we gotta keep BOTH these guys |
Our record is 79 and 211 with them. Until this game we were winless without Lonzo. They both have their skills but it is ridiculously optimistic to think that these two plus Lonzo and Ingram will compete for titles. If we sign the two max FAs and can find a way to keep one of them... sure, why not... but by no means should they be the primary goal. Maybe fall back plan #57. |
Did you know that we tanked the last 4 seasons? A little perspective goes a long way.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| ChickenBeckerman wrote: | | seriously fellas. we gotta keep BOTH these guys |
They’re going to be expensive. At most keep 1. I’d say that JC is more easily replaceable.
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MIMLaker
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:02 am Post subject: |
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I'm hoping we keep both of them, once and for all, and focus on just signing ONE top FA, or using that cap space to build up our young core.
The players on this team are improving with clearer roles and consistent minutes. It's a chicken-and-egg argument re: consistent minutes and consistent production, but enough is enough.
I'd rather do center-by-committee with Randle as part of the mix than strike out on FAs next year and lose Randle for nothing.I'd rather stop harping on Clarkson's less-than-perfect game when he's already showing value as a gunner/ slasher for the bench.
This team is on the rise and the FO and the 2-MAX-or-Bust crowd is looking too far past that.
The biggest flaws on our team are at the C and starting 2g spots - i.e., the guys whose acquisitions were substantially motivated by cap space and relief. And the more we keep our eyes focuses on cap concerns, the more we show that the space is more heavily valued than the players we have.
I'd gladly build with a core of Ball/ Ingram/ Kuz/ Randle/ Clarkson/ Nance/ Hart. Add in a PG 13.1, or even a <shudder> Cousins, and we'll be up in the 50-win level again.
But go all in for 2 MAX FAs and we risk looking even worse than we have the past 5 years. |
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trablos
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| MIMLaker wrote: | I'm hoping we keep both of them, once and for all, and focus on just signing ONE top FA, or using that cap space to build up our young core.
The players on this team are improving with clearer roles and consistent minutes. It's a chicken-and-egg argument re: consistent minutes and consistent production, but enough is enough.
I'd rather do center-by-committee with Randle as part of the mix than strike out on FAs next year and lose Randle for nothing.I'd rather stop harping on Clarkson's less-than-perfect game when he's already showing value as a gunner/ slasher for the bench.
This team is on the rise and the FO and the 2-MAX-or-Bust crowd is looking too far past that.
The biggest flaws on our team are at the C and starting 2g spots - i.e., the guys whose acquisitions were substantially motivated by cap space and relief. And the more we keep our eyes focuses on cap concerns, the more we show that the space is more heavily valued than the players we have.
I'd gladly build with a core of Ball/ Ingram/ Kuz/ Randle/ Clarkson/ Nance/ Hart. Add in a PG 13.1, or even a <shudder> Cousins, and we'll be up in the 50-win level again.
But go all in for 2 MAX FAs and we risk looking even worse than we have the past 5 years. |
I fail to understand this logic. |
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pjiddy
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| I think we end up matching Randle. The odds of PG + Lebron/Cousins is now scraping its belly on the zero axis and who else out there is worth sacrificing Randle to overpay? I think he gets 4/60 and we match it. |
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pjiddy
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | Fortysixn2 wrote: | | CantStopJM wrote: | How about we don't keep either of them?
If we can move on from Russell who was 2x the player either of them were/are, we can move on from Randle and we can definitely move on from Clarkson. |
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Bingo. KCP is hot garbage offensively and Randle doesn't fit (stop with the "he can guard 1-5 and is a 20/15 player if Luke gives him minutes" crap).
Go with the 2-max plan. |
There's that minor technicality of the max players having to WANT to come here. |
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lakerican
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| pjiddy wrote: | | I think we end up matching Randle. The odds of PG + Lebron/Cousins is now scraping its belly on the zero axis and who else out there is worth sacrificing Randle to overpay? I think he gets 4/60 and we match it. |
This. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| lakerican wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | I think we end up matching Randle. The odds of PG + Lebron/Cousins is now scraping its belly on the zero axis and who else out there is worth sacrificing Randle to overpay? I think he gets 4/60 and we match it. |
This. |
And we can preserve the 2 max cap space AND keep Jules, so it's not mutually exclusive.
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laker50
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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MIMLaker has it right:
| Quote: |
I'm hoping we keep both of them, once and for all, and focus on just signing ONE top FA, or using that cap space to build up our young core.
The players on this team are improving with clearer roles and consistent minutes. It's a chicken-and-egg argument re: consistent minutes and consistent production, but enough is enough.
I'd rather do center-by-committee with Randle as part of the mix than strike out on FAs next year and lose Randle for nothing.I'd rather stop harping on Clarkson's less-than-perfect game when he's already showing value as a gunner/ slasher for the bench.
This team is on the rise and the FO and the 2-MAX-or-Bust crowd is looking too far past that.
The biggest flaws on our team are at the C and starting 2g spots - i.e., the guys whose acquisitions were substantially motivated by cap space and relief. And the more we keep our eyes focuses on cap concerns, the more we show that the space is more heavily valued than the players we have.
I'd gladly build with a core of Ball/ Ingram/ Kuz/ Randle/ Clarkson/ Nance/ Hart. Add in a PG 13.1, or even a <shudder> Cousins, and we'll be up in the 50-win level again.
But go all in for 2 MAX FAs and we risk looking even worse than we have the past 5 years. |
A philosophy of counting your chickens before they hatch is stupid. Yes, a two max plan is the goal. And it makes sense.
What he is saying is why rape the team to get there. It takes more than two great players to win now. GSW have more than just Curry and Durant. Although, they are among the top players. But they have many great players.
Don't know what PG, James, and Cousins will decide. The Lakers are ready to sign at least one of them. But don't know what they will do.
So keep your core players until in a position to make a decision.
Don't make a decision until you have the facts. But don't make a stupid decision expecting things to happen. |
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troy
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | unleasHell wrote: | How about KEEPING JRandle and JClarkson? and just adding a bigname FO in Off Season?
AGREE 100% |
Well they can. Brook's 19M comes off the books, as does KCP's 17M
Which will free up 36M in cap space in the off-season so..
That would be enough for one max contract.
So yes, you could essentially go get DeMarcus Cousins and plug him into the Brook Lopez spot and keep the team in tact this off-season. We'd probably have to do something about the starting 2 position, but that would likely go to Josh Hart if KCP wasn't willing to take a paycut to come back which I doubt he would.
So our roster would look like this
Lonzo Ball
Josh Hart
Brandon Ingram
Julius Randle
DeMarcus Cousins
Bench:
Jordan Clarkson
Kyle Kuzma / Luol Deng
Larry Nance Jr.
Ivica Zubac / Thomas Bryant
Also the people going "gone cause contract situation"
Aren't we the ones talking about paying 60M for two max's? Well Randle is playing up to max potential whether people want to admit that or not. (if we look at the market)
I brought up the question of if Paul George was a max guy, and people brought up Milsap and other players that went on to get a max because of what the market dictated.
Well IF THAT IS THE CASE... Randle is putting up 17/10/2 in 27MPG as a starter, the only player in NBA history to do so.
So the other side of that equation is, if Randle is a 20/10 guy at 33 MPG at 23 years old wouldn't that make him worthy of a max quality? People may not want to admit that but if Randle was playing 33 MPG he's probably a 20/10 player. if he's a 17/10/2 player at 27 MPG as a starter, than he's 20/10 or more at 33MPG or so.
But the benefit is we have his Bird's Rights and a cap hold lower than his actual value.
But some of you need to realize you're literally running away from signing a 23 year old to a rookie max as opposed to signing a 28 year old to a much higher max which would mean by the time the Warriors are falling off that guy will be in his 30s. The 20/10 kid who is 25 or the "savior max guy" who is 31?
Which is going to be more valuable to us as a whole once Golden State falls off?
There isn't gonna be a "Paul George and LeBron James" team up on the Lakers, and Paul george isn't even the savior of the franchise anyway.
Even then I watch LeBron with Kevin Love and Isaiah Thomas and all that loaded roster he has in Cleveland and how they play the 28th ranked defense in the EAST and only go on to now get beaten by the Warriors every year.
I'm not going to sit here and say "If we replaced Kevin Love with Paul George they'd have a chance against Golden State!!"
So maybe it's time to let go of that illusion too. If Paul George was that much of a difference maker the Thunder would have a much better record this season.
But the saving grace the Lakers have(of not getting two max's this off-season) is they have a kid that would be a 20/10 player already while he's just turned 23, and is capable of defending all 5 positions.
The reality is, if Randle was on the free agent market, this same fanbase would be trying to think of ways to acquire him by any means necessary. But the fact that he's already here, they take him for granted like [expletive].
Understand that your "two max plan" actually is a very beneficial one if one of the "max potential" guys is already on your team and you're only extending him.
Max doesn't mean "superstar". But you can't sit there and go a kid that would put up 20/10 in 33MPG isn't worth a rookie max extension. IF you look at the market and the people that have gotten max extensions.
The point of drafting Randle in the first place was that he could play up to this kind of level so that he was worthy of such a contract.
And the only player in NBA history to put up 17/10/2 in 27 MPG as a starter while capable of defending all 5 positions is pretty darn 'worthy'.
Randle is a necessity, especially when the "two max plan" doesn't happen.
Imagine if Golden State had traded Steph to Milwaukee like they almost did but tbe Bucks wanted Monta instead, or if Golden State had traded Klay or Draymond before they all broke out because they were afraid of paying them?
Again, do you want to make the same mistakes that OKC made and the Warriors didn't? There's a reason the Warriors are where they are right now and OKC isn't. |
Excellent post. |
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troy
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | Keep this simple.
Keep Clarkson. He's the only comfortable shot creator at guard/wing.
Keep Randle. Defensive versatility at 5/4 is hard to find. I don't care about his numbers per 36, because we did see the best and worst out of Randle last game, and frankly, you can't build a franchise around that. He's not a franchise player.
1 MAX contract slot open. Get Paul George. You're already dropping KCP and Lopez. You may as well start Ingram, and put PG13.1 at 2. When Ingram sits, slide PG13.1 to 3, and play more Josh Hart anyway. No need for Avery Bradley here. Hart does the same thing, and is FAR ahead by age in terms of development.
Play Thomas Bryant/Zubac. Not only have they earned their PT from the G-League, but now you need the size at 5 with Lopez gone and Randle getting bigger minutes at 5/4.
Gone:
Lopez
KCP
Add:
PG13.1
Bump up:
Bryant
Zubac
Simple. If we need another back up 5 because the other 2 guys aren't ready, Noah Vonleh is adequate. If we need more shooting, Bjelica from Minny is available. |
Agreed. |
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troy
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| PartyMan wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | Keep this simple.
Keep Clarkson. He's the only comfortable shot creator at guard/wing.
Keep Randle. Defensive versatility at 5/4 is hard to find. I don't care about his numbers per 36, because we did see the best and worst out of Randle last game, and frankly, you can't build a franchise around that. He's not a franchise player.
1 MAX contract slot open. Get Paul George. You're already dropping KCP and Lopez. You may as well start Ingram, and put PG13.1 at 2. When Ingram sits, slide PG13.1 to 3, and play more Josh Hart anyway. No need for Avery Bradley here. Hart does the same thing, and is FAR ahead by age in terms of development.
Play Thomas Bryant/Zubac. Not only have they earned their PT from the G-League, but now you need the size at 5 with Lopez gone and Randle getting bigger minutes at 5/4.
Gone:
Lopez
KCP
Add:
PG13.1
Bump up:
Bryant
Zubac
Simple. If we need another back up 5 because the other 2 guys aren't ready, Noah Vonleh is adequate. If we need more shooting, Bjelica from Minny is available. |
Completely agree. Add George, keep the young guns together, and roll the dice with Zubac and TBryant at the 5 with Randle and Nance getting minutes there as well. Add some depth on the wing and find a solid vet pg to back up Ball, especially if you’re not going to use JC in that role. The way we’ve been drafting, we might find a contributor in the draft as well.
I would call that a good offseason for us and a playoff team at the least.
I think Ingram starts playing at or close to All Star level next year, Kuzma is at the very least a complete offensive player, JC scoring off the bench, Nance jr doing all the little things, versatility with Randle ( tho I have given up on his jumper), Hart will be a good defender off the bench as well as a good rebounder for a guard, and Ball we all know is the straw that stirs the drink.
I would like to keep all our young guys because if they keep developing and you add a go to guy who is also a great defender, this team could compete for a long time. I like the idea of homegrown talent. |
My point exactly. We should concentrate on the bigger picture. The Warriors and the Rockets are taking the West for the next 3 or so years. Our guys can be in development stages pending the Warriors/Rockets eventual fall. Seems like teams start winning Rings when their core players are in the mid to late 20's age. Our guys are on track. |
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TooMuchMajicBuss
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| JeezyXVII wrote: | If seriously love to have ABradley on this team.
He should be 1 of the guys we reach out to in the FA.
He’d be the ideal 2 next to Lonzo, more consistant offensive player, 3pt shooter than KCP and an amazing defender. |
Yeah if the price is right Bradley would fit this team very well. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | My point exactly. We should concentrate on the bigger picture. The Warriors and the Rockets are taking the West for the next 3 or so years. Our guys can be in development stages pending the Warriors/Rockets eventual fall. Seems like teams start winning Rings when their core players are in the mid to late 20's age. Our guys are on track. |
What is the plan in the meantime? (B/c we have to start paying our kids grown up money soon).
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Runway8
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Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 22853
Location: La Jolla, San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | Keep this simple.
Keep Clarkson. He's the only comfortable shot creator at guard/wing.
Keep Randle. Defensive versatility at 5/4 is hard to find. I don't care about his numbers per 36, because we did see the best and worst out of Randle last game, and frankly, you can't build a franchise around that. He's not a franchise player.
1 MAX contract slot open. Get Paul George. You're already dropping KCP and Lopez. You may as well start Ingram, and put PG13.1 at 2. When Ingram sits, slide PG13.1 to 3, and play more Josh Hart anyway. No need for Avery Bradley here. Hart does the same thing, and is FAR ahead by age in terms of development.
Play Thomas Bryant/Zubac. Not only have they earned their PT from the G-League, but now you need the size at 5 with Lopez gone and Randle getting bigger minutes at 5/4.
Gone:
Lopez
KCP
Add:
PG13.1
Bump up:
Bryant
Zubac
Simple. If we need another back up 5 because the other 2 guys aren't ready, Noah Vonleh is adequate. If we need more shooting, Bjelica from Minny is available. |
I like it simple like that. I would prefer Lebron over PG13 because I don't see a significant impact from PG13. If all else was equal, meaning nobody improved, this team is a lock for the playoffs with Lebron. With PG13, we would still flirt with missing the playoffs.
Anyway, you're also talking about Luke Walton here, mad scientist extraordinaire. He will constantly search for some sort of magic potion, only to settle in once we're outta the picture. That seems to be the case for the past two years with him. I wonder if part of that is deflecting blame. When you're constantly mixing the line-ups, you're saying it's the players. For the most part, it's true, but when do we draw the line and put the onus on Luke to provide some continuity? Decide on a line-up, on a rotation from the get-go and stick to it, make it work. Give them some continuity. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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It all comes down to whether PG13 would leave OKC to join this unproven team. Of course you take him if he wants to come solo, but I have my doubts.
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Kjj10697X
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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My prediction....KCP and/or BLopez gets traded before the deadline.
JR and JC stays till the summer. |
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CRoost
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Posts: 4798
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | My point exactly. We should concentrate on the bigger picture. The Warriors and the Rockets are taking the West for the next 3 or so years. Our guys can be in development stages pending the Warriors/Rockets eventual fall. Seems like teams start winning Rings when their core players are in the mid to late 20's age. Our guys are on track. |
What is the plan in the meantime? (B/c we have to start paying our kids grown up money soon). |
Plan should remain 2 max. It could be one and one later. I’m talking about game changers type of players. We need to be in the playoffs. When Lonzo and Ingram and Kuzma enter their primes, hopefully the 2 max players are still good enough to be impact players so the continuity to contend will be there. |
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