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PartyMan
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 Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Do it Mitch! wrote: | | Thomas Bryant and Zubats at center leaves a gaping hole at the 5 |
That’s why it’s rolling the dice. We would be pretty strong at every other position. Zubac had his moments as a rook, and Bryant has played well with South Bay and can hit the 3. You’re banking on their potential and hope they can hold their own. Maybe one of them surprises, you never know. Can also add a vet on the cheap, a la Bogut this year as insurance. Or hell bring back Tarik. Always liked the guy and decent player.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Do it Mitch! wrote: | | Thomas Bryant and Zubats at center leaves a gaping hole at the 5 |
Play Randle center minutes and get Kuzma PT.
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MJST
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | Considering the change in the modern NBA, I care much less about post percentages, but A LOT more on Iso defense FG% from the perimeter.
That's where it matters. |
Brook's defense is bad if you take him anywhere away from the basket, his rim protection has been what's been important as of late.
I think I posted in the FA thread some stats perhaps a week or two ago as it pertained to Cousins.
Found it
| Quote: | Also if you want to talk about Cousins defense this season
Isolation 77th %ile
Pick and Roll Ball Handler 74.9th %ile
Post Up 84th %ile
The only two areas where Cousins has been weak have been
Spot Ups 15.1 %ile
Pick and Roll Roll Man 28th %ile (Anthony Davis 87th %ile)
That basically says what we already know. If he's defending in the paint or someone is trying to ball handle against him he's fine. But if he has to go out onto the perimeter to contest, or has to come out to help defend and the roller gets past him, it's a problem(it's a problem for Brook Lopez too).
However those two things are paired with Anthony Davis, whom
Spot Ups 66.4%ile
Pick and Roll Roll Man 87.2%ile
With Julius Randle
Spot Ups 95.7%ile
Brandon Ingram
Spot Ups 83.3%ile
Josh Hart
Spot Ups 78%ile
Kyke Kuzma
Spot ups 74.1%ile
Lonzo Ball
Spot Ups 72%ile
Stress to say, that Cousins would be surrounded with a team of guys that can handle his spot ups deficiency, and all of them are ranked higher than Davis on it.
Now, the thing we need to wonder is how the Lakers kids rank in pick and roll against the roll man %ile. That hasn't been put up yet.
But consider that the Lakers are currently one of the better teams in the league defending the 3, which forces teams to have to take the ball inside, which is where Cousins has shined this year defensively.
Want some other shockers for you?
Isolation Defense
DeMarcus Cousins 77th %ile
Brook Lopez %ile 75.2nd %ile
Pick and Roll Ball Handler Defense
Demarcus Cousins 74.9th %ile
Brook Lopez %ile Not on List
Post Up Defense
DeMarcus Cousins 84th %ile
Brook Lopez %ile 60.1st %ile
So yeah.... Cousins has all around been a better defender than Lopez has at the one place Lopez is best at defending.
Food for thought before you use THIS season in particular as Cousins being terrible defensively. He's better than Lopez defensively, and he's 100x better than Lopez on offense.
So again, what's the problem again with going after Cousins? The guy whom is also currently the best center in the league and is a better defender than our current center?
Swap out Lopez with Cousins while keeping the test of our young core this off-season and let's go for it. |
I still feel this way as it pertains to Cousins.
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Last edited by MJST on Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Do it Mitch!
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Do it Mitch! wrote: | | Thomas Bryant and Zubats at center leaves a gaping hole at the 5 |
Play Randle center minutes and get Kuzma PT. |
Loven what I’m seeing from Thomas Bryant in the G league, and Zubats looked great last season. But man, I just don’t know if that gets it done |
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Fracture
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Magic is going to swing for the fences. He already got rid of DLO. JC and Randle are gone. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Fracture wrote: | | Magic is going to swing for the fences.. |
You don't swing for the fences in the middle of the season for a team that is not only not making the playoffs, but isn't even close to competing with Golden State for the next 2-3 seasons. Or you wind up like New Orleans.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Spot Ups 15.1 %ile
Pick and Roll Roll Man 28th %ile (Anthony Davis 87th %ile) |
This is where it hurts.
| Quote: |
DeMarcus Cousins 77th %ile
Brook Lopez %ile 75.2nd %ile |
So, it's not much of an upgrade, and Lopez actually plays some level of defense.
| Quote: |
Post Up Defense
DeMarcus Cousins 84th %ile
Brook Lopez %ile 60.1st %ile |
Well great, except the league is going away from post ups.
| Quote: | | But if he has to go out onto the perimeter to contest, or has to come out to help defend and the roller gets past him, it's a problem(it's a problem for Brook Lopez too). |
And this is, where you're not selling me. In a perimeter oriented NBA, you need 5s that can contest 3s adequately without fouling. Let the roller get past him on PnR? At least with Brook, it's an athleticism issue. What's Boogie's issue?
This is also why we have closed for most of the season with Randle at 5.
This is a guy that could enhance the Laker offense as a primary high post initiator, allowing Lonzo and Ingram off-ball, Kuzma and Hart as spot ups. That's fine.
But then we're paying for a guy that can't switch perimeter, can't defend the roll man (this is where tape is needed to see if it really is his fault), averages 5 turnovers per game, and nearly 4 fouls?
Basically, this is a guy that doesn't move his feet. If you think that's worth $25-30mil., that's a lot of people's opinion. Not mine.
I don't know man. I've seen big numbers from Cousins for almost a decade. The Pelicans are one of the best shooting teams in the league and barely over .500. Shrug.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Do it Mitch! wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Do it Mitch! wrote: | | Thomas Bryant and Zubats at center leaves a gaping hole at the 5 |
Play Randle center minutes and get Kuzma PT. |
Loven what I’m seeing from Thomas Bryant in the G league, and Zubats looked great last season. But man, I just don’t know if that gets it done |
Let them develop this summer. Even if they split 10-15mpg each, Randle can handle the rest of the Cs minutes.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| DangeRuss wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Agree Mike, we could add the popular duo of George and Cousins and not make the playoffs next season. |
So the better option is George by himself and play Zubac? Lol |
The better option is being patient
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MJST
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: |
Spot Ups 15.1 %ile
Pick and Roll Roll Man 28th %ile (Anthony Davis 87th %ile) |
This is where it hurts.
| Quote: |
DeMarcus Cousins 77th %ile
Brook Lopez %ile 75.2nd %ile |
So, it's not much of an upgrade, and Lopez actually plays some level of defense.
| Quote: |
Post Up Defense
DeMarcus Cousins 84th %ile
Brook Lopez %ile 60.1st %ile |
Well great, except the league is going away from post ups.
| Quote: | | But if he has to go out onto the perimeter to contest, or has to come out to help defend and the roller gets past him, it's a problem(it's a problem for Brook Lopez too). |
And this is, where you're not selling me. In a perimeter oriented NBA, you need 5s that can contest 3s adequately without fouling. Let the roller get past him on PnR? At least with Brook, it's an athleticism issue. What's Boogie's issue?
This is also why we have closed for most of the season with Randle at 5.
This is a guy that could enhance the Laker offense as a primary high post initiator, allowing Lonzo and Ingram off-ball, Kuzma and Hart as spot ups. That's fine.
But then we're paying for a guy that can't switch perimeter, can't defend the roll man (this is where tape is needed to see if it really is his fault), averages 5 turnovers per game, and nearly 4 fouls?
Basically, this is a guy that doesn't move his feet. If you think that's worth $25-30mil., that's a lot of people's opinion. Not mine.
I don't know man. I've seen big numbers from Cousins for almost a decade. The Pelicans are one of the best shooting teams in the league and barely over .500. Shrug. |
Can you name me the centers in the NBA that can switch on the perimeter? It's not often.
And if we're talking "spot ups defense"
Let's break down the centers that actually have a good spot up percentile.
Dwight Howard: 62.8 %ile
Anthony Davis 66 %ile
Mason Plumlee 68 %ile
Steven Adams 70 %ile
Noah Vonleh 79 %ile
Dwight Powell 78.6 %ile
Jusuf Nurkic 81.8 %ile
Tyson Chandler 85.8 %ile
Joel Embiid 88 %ile
Marc Gasol 91 %ile
AL horford 91 %ile
Jarrett Allen 93 %ile
Tarik Black 98 %ile
Those are all the centers in the NBA with a spot up %ile defense over 60 that have played at least 30 games this season.
And Lopez's lack of ability to defend on the perimeter didn't hurt our defense this season, and when he's next to Randle in the starting lineup as our starting lineup is, I believe we are 2nd in the league in defensive efficiency since we've had the
Lonzo
KCP
Ingram
Randle
Lopez
lineup going?
The reason is because everyone else( as I pointed out above) has a very above average spot up defense. Its another one of the reasons why we're one of the best teams in the NBA or were, at defending the 3 point line.
So those are the kinds of things to take into consideration.
Cousins has the same kind of defensive weaknesses that Lopez may have, however Cousins is also better defensively in the areas where Brook is strongest.
So watching how it hasn't killed our defense this year, you plug in Cousins for Lopez and theoretically it wouldn't next year either, it would however increase our offense as well.
Again, if we're not being terribly exploited to a 'broken' extent with Lopez, we likely wouldn't be with Cousins.
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Last edited by MJST on Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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PHILosophize
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Mike how is the top of the 2019 draft looking?
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | And Lopez's lack of ability to defend on the perimeter didn't hurt our defense this season, and when he's next to Randle in the starting lineup as our starting lineup is, I believe we are 2nd in the league in defensive efficiency since we've had the
Lonzo
KCP
Ingram
Randle
Lopez |
Honest question since Randle's been at PF.
Has Lopez been closing games? If not, are you really going to bench Cousins for Randle at 5 and Kuzma at 4 to close?
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MJST
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | And Lopez's lack of ability to defend on the perimeter didn't hurt our defense this season, and when he's next to Randle in the starting lineup as our starting lineup is, I believe we are 2nd in the league in defensive efficiency since we've had the
Lonzo
KCP
Ingram
Randle
Lopez |
Honest question since Randle's been at PF.
Has Lopez been closing games? If not, are you really going to bench Cousins for Randle at 5 and Kuzma at 4 to close? |
Nope, but Cousins isn't Lopez, he's better than Lopez at rebounding, offense AND this season defense. He would also be shooting 36% from three.
So when you consider how efficient our defense has been, you add in the offense and rebounding that Cousins gives you with better defense than Lopez than we're probably looking at different scenarios to 'close games'.
Stress to say, our offense probably isn't ranked 29th.
Particularly with the | Quote: | | This is a guy that could enhance the Laker offense as a primary high post initiator, allowing Lonzo and Ingram off-ball, Kuzma and Hart as spot ups. That's fine. |
That you mentioned.
So if our offense improves, and our defense isn't effected very much and continues to be as good as it has been (no reason why it wouldn't be). Then our record and 'end game' situations probably looks a lot different than it has this season. Which is something to take into account.
I'm fairly certain that Cousins would be finishing games. There's a reason for that. He's the best center in the NBA and also is not just dominant inside but can stretch the floor and shoot 36% from three on the outside.
Thus given the offense Luke has been running and the looks he's been giving Lopez, if Cousins was getting those looks and knocking down 36-37% of them, that changes a lot.
Also considering, as you said, that Lonzo, Ingram, Hart are going to be used off ball more often (where Ingram especially SHOULD be utilized) then it effects our offense in a positive sense, and if Cousins was bringing the defensive effort he has this season for us(which is better than Lopez's) we're looking at essentially a similar defense next year, with a much better offense.
I'll take that wholeheartedly.
As far as if I'd finish games with Kuzma at the 4 and Randle at the 5, I'd say that depends how Cousins is looking or how effective he's been.
But again, that's another reason why I've always said that the best way to get a guy like Cousins is in free agency, where you can sell the vision/expectations/role for him. If he wants it, he'll take it, and you start off on the right foot. If he doesn't, he won't and we don't have to worry about him not buying in.
That's one of the reasons I'd much prefer getting him in free agency as opposed to trade, though I've created scenarios for both. But for Cousins, getting him to buy into what we're doing in FA is a lot better than trying to spend the next 2 months trying to convince him to stay.
I'm VERY happy, we're not in the same predicament that New Orleans is in right now, or OKC for that matter when it comes to what hangs over their organizations about their prospective free agents.
Can you imagine if we'd gotten George or Cousins on one year deals and were having a season similar to the kind we're having right now?
Yeah.. I don't think I'd want that stress hanging over this season, particularly as we'd have likely have to have lost 1-2 of our youngsters to get that.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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1. As I pointed out earlier, rebounding isn't a problem with the Lakers. They're currently #1. Pels are #17 in defensive rebounding (I'd really question this with Boogie and AD in the paint). Lakers are #6.
2. Lopez shot 34% from 3 last year. He's at 32% now. Cousins shoots 37% this year. Now I just think you're overpaying for a shooter.
3. You keep making the comparison with Lopez. It's not about that.
It's more like:
1. Are you willing to pay $25-$30mil for him?
2. Is he going to close games? Do you see him in the Lakers' death lineup?
3. If he's on the team, what's his role? We're trying to play GSW offense, and Cousins' USG is way too high.
4. Are you willing to take that risk despite zero proof of winning in the past?
This whole thing about playing your starters 33-38 minutes a game is an antiquated idea for this kind of roster. It assumes that it's your best +/- lineup to start, and close. If he doesn't close games, because he can't defend spot up shooters or roll-man in late game situations, then you're overpaying an All-Star that you can't even play.
The Lakers' offensive holes are based around their inefficiencies during transition play and 3-pt shooting full-stop. Boogie, doesn't really help that. Hell, the Lakers as a team shoot 51% from 2pt range. It would be even better with transition efficiency. That, is a wing problem.
Just like 3pt shooting. I don't want Lopez shooting 5.4 3's per game. I don't want KCP shooting 5.8 3's per game. Both guys are around 32% and 34%. You're not even optimizing what Lopez does best, which is in the post. That ties in to Lakers' offensive scheme issues and lack of movement on the weakside, even if it's been better the past few games.
What I want is PG13.1 as the transition finisher AND as a guy who shoots 7 3ptA per game at a 43% clip. THAT puts a big dent in Lakers' offensive efficiency.
Here we are trying to run an offense that is supposed to have the best shooters, shoot (wings and guards), and then can't even optimize a 20ppg C. How in the world are you going to do that with Boogie now?
The argument changes when it's Anthony Davis. Unlike Boogie, he actually plays like a wing.
I don't know man. A decade ago, I was all about getting BPAs because the triangle would fit anyone in with 3pt range. But this current roster is all about the system, rather than building a system around a franchise player. It seems imperative to get the right wing players to fit the system, on both ends, or it doesn't work.
Then again, this is why if the Lakers get LeBron, I'd start him at PF, but then have him close games at 5. At least I can trust him to contest and switch effectively.
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LakerMindLA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | Keep this simple.
Keep Clarkson. He's the only comfortable shot creator at guard/wing.
Keep Randle. Defensive versatility at 5/4 is hard to find. I don't care about his numbers per 36, because we did see the best and worst out of Randle last game, and frankly, you can't build a franchise around that. He's not a franchise player.
1 MAX contract slot open. Get Paul George. You're already dropping KCP and Lopez. You may as well start Ingram, and put PG13.1 at 2. When Ingram sits, slide PG13.1 to 3, and play more Josh Hart anyway. No need for Avery Bradley here. Hart does the same thing, and is FAR ahead by age in terms of development.
Play Thomas Bryant/Zubac. Not only have they earned their PT from the G-League, but now you need the size at 5 with Lopez gone and Randle getting bigger minutes at 5/4.
Gone:
Lopez
KCP
Add:
PG13.1
Bump up:
Bryant
Zubac
Simple. If we need another back up 5 because the other 2 guys aren't ready, Noah Vonleh is adequate. If we need more shooting, Bjelica from Minny is available. |
If you're getting PG13, I think you then trade Clarkson and try to keep KCP.
Clarkson's value as a shot creator/ scoring wing drops significantly with PG13 and he struggles a bit playing off the ball.
KCP's defense and potential as a 3pt shooter makes him a better fit with PG13. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerMindLA wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | Keep this simple.
Keep Clarkson. He's the only comfortable shot creator at guard/wing.
Keep Randle. Defensive versatility at 5/4 is hard to find. I don't care about his numbers per 36, because we did see the best and worst out of Randle last game, and frankly, you can't build a franchise around that. He's not a franchise player.
1 MAX contract slot open. Get Paul George. You're already dropping KCP and Lopez. You may as well start Ingram, and put PG13.1 at 2. When Ingram sits, slide PG13.1 to 3, and play more Josh Hart anyway. No need for Avery Bradley here. Hart does the same thing, and is FAR ahead by age in terms of development.
Play Thomas Bryant/Zubac. Not only have they earned their PT from the G-League, but now you need the size at 5 with Lopez gone and Randle getting bigger minutes at 5/4.
Gone:
Lopez
KCP
Add:
PG13.1
Bump up:
Bryant
Zubac
Simple. If we need another back up 5 because the other 2 guys aren't ready, Noah Vonleh is adequate. If we need more shooting, Bjelica from Minny is available. |
If you're getting PG13, I think you then trade Clarkson and try to keep KCP.
Clarkson's value as a shot creator/ scoring wing drops significantly with PG13 and he struggles a bit playing off the ball.
KCP's defense and potential as a 3pt shooter makes him a better fit with PG13. |
You think KCP wants to come off the bench?
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Separate post for this. Feels like it has to do with vision for the team.
The perimeter lineups the Lakers run best have lower USG for 4s and 5s. Randle succeeds well because he was a roll-man with a great FG% to finish, especially against slower 5s. This advantage is a bit negated with him at 4.
But in the end, he plays, because he has absolutely proven defensive stops against stud PGs and SGs.
It's a lot easier for me to see a ball-dominant wing like LeBron or PG13.1 and then run the offense around him, with someone like Noah Vonleh as a spot up shooter/defensive rebounder/perimeter contest at C if necessary, Randle at 5, Kuzma at 4, and Zo/Hart off-ball.
The argument is a lot different if the starting center is Nikola Jokic or Willie Cauley-Stein. At least Jokic can keep a ball moving without stopping to read. WCS moves his feet off the ball and hits out to baseline 3pt range, looking good at it too. Hits the offensive glass. Switchable on D. Both guys MUCH lower USG than Boogie.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
If you're getting PG13, I think you then trade Clarkson and try to keep KCP. |
Disagree. Nothing wrong with having two or more shot creators. Even GSW runs with Durant and Curry.
I appreciate KCP's defense off-ball, rare on-ball, but the 3pt shot upside for him is no different than JC. Both guys are around 34%.
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Inspector Gadget
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| I rather trade both then bring them back. We are gonna need guys who don’t disappear when it counts and both usually disappear. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: |
It's more like:
1. Are you willing to pay $25-$30mil for him? |
Yes, he's the best center in the NBA
| Mike@LG wrote: |
2. Is he going to close games? Do you see him in the Lakers' death lineup? |
Definitely see him closing games, also see him in the lineups that punish a team for attempting to go small. Also our 'death lineup' would still be in tact.
| Mike@LG wrote: |
3. If he's on the team, what's his role? We're trying to play GSW offense, and Cousins' USG is way too high. |
His role would be as a counter to small ball. Here's the thing, small ball gets to flourish because the difference making centers aren't on teams that are going anywhere. Remember how much trouble Memphis caused Golden State till they realized Tony Allen couldn't shoot?
You beat small ball by forcing them into a slower pace in the half court set as opposed to trying to run with them, that is what Golden State does not like. But having Cousins means we could slow down what they want to do in the half court when we're not running, but it also gives us a big that can hit threes that pulls their defensive big out of the paint (a Zaza or Bogut). This enables both Ingram and Randle to attack inside due to the spacing Cousins causes and enables us to take advantage of Hart, Lonzo, Randle, Ingram's ability off the ball as well.
Not just that, but theoretically you have a 1,2,3,5 that can all stretch the floor to three. So it's a direct counter to a team like Golden State.
Because it has the floor spacing, but it also has a dominant inside presence in the half court that they do not have, that can also stretch it to three and pull their defenders away from the basket.
| Mike@LG wrote: |
4. Are you willing to take that risk despite zero proof of winning in the past? |
Yep, just like I would have for Kevin Love or Kyrie Irving 3 seasons ago.
| Mike@LG wrote: |
This whole thing about playing your starters 33-38 minutes a game is an antiquated idea for this kind of roster. |
Every starter plays over 30 MPG but Randle and Lopez, and Randle has proven that he should, and Lopez is here for what he's here for.
| Mike@LG wrote: |
It assumes that it's your best +/- lineup to start, and close. If he doesn't close games, because he can't defend spot up shooters or roll-man in late game situations, then you're overpaying an All-Star that you can't even play. |
Yeah but if Lopez was putting up 25/14/5 he'd be closing regardless, especially given his defense.
I guess the bigger question becomes, how many games have you seen the Pelicans lose strictly because of Cousins ability to defend spot ups on the perimeter? How many games have we lost because of Lopez's inability in those kind of aspects?
it doesn't show up as much because everyone else thats in a lineup out there is a high end 'spot up' defender in the percentiles, and this kind of evens those things out.
| Mike@LG wrote: |
The Lakers' offensive holes are based around their inefficiencies during transition play and 3-pt shooting full-stop. Boogie, doesn't really help that. |
I'd think if Boogie is shooting 36-37% from three with the Lakers he'd be helping that. That little 4 minute stretch about 2 games ago with Randle and Lopez that essentially brought us back into that game for good is something I think about in those regards.
| Mike@LG wrote: |
Hell, the Lakers as a team shoot 51% from 2pt range. It would be even better with transition efficiency. That, is a wing problem. |
Yes, and those Wings have been proven to be more effective shooters when it's as a spot up and not off the iso (Ingram, Lonzo) and you have Hart that already can do that. So using that kind of theorizing you'd assume the wing three point shooting would improve,. Especially given how you described our offense would be.
| Mike@LG wrote: |
Just like 3pt shooting. I don't want Lopez shooting 5.4 3's per game. I don't want KCP shooting 5.8 3's per game. Both guys are around 32% and 34%. You're not even optimizing what Lopez does best, which is in the post. That ties in to Lakers' offensive scheme issues and lack of movement on the weakside, even if it's been better the past few games. |
Agree on Lopez, but Cousins fits better into what the Lakers are trying to do with Brook because he shoots 36-37% from three on 6+ attempts a game.
| Mike@LG wrote: |
What I want is PG13.1 as the transition finisher AND as a guy who shoots 7 3ptA per game at a 43% clip. THAT puts a big dent in Lakers' offensive efficiency. |
True, but when you're talking about what Cousins is willing to accept as a role. Do you think Paul George who is a 2nd/3rd best guy on a Championship roster but still wants to be treated as the Number 1 guy, would accept essentially a "Hey, just be an off-ball sniper and be an upgraded KCP" role.
You want us to tell Paul George to 'be our Tyson Chandler'? Do you think he'd buy into that given what he's shown over the years and even recently about how good he thinks he is vs what the reality of his role most likely is?
| Mike@LG wrote: |
Here we are trying to run an offense that is supposed to have the best shooters, shoot (wings and guards), and then can't even optimize a 20ppg C. How in the world are you going to do that with Boogie now? |
Mainly because Boogie fits better into the style they're trying to force Brook to play.
Boogie is a better rebounder and he shoots 36-37% from three on 6+ a game. So as much as we hate watching them use Lopez that way, it's actually a way Boogie could be used to effectiveness.
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LakerMindLA
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Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 5344
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: |
If you're getting PG13, I think you then trade Clarkson and try to keep KCP. |
Disagree. Nothing wrong with having two or more shot creators. Even GSW runs with Durant and Curry.
I appreciate KCP's defense off-ball, rare on-ball, but the 3pt shot upside for him is no different than JC. Both guys are around 34%. |
I see PG13, Ingram and potentially Kuzma as the main shot creators.
KCP has the potential to be a 36-37% shooter from 3. He was 35% last year is trending up after a really bad January.
Don't see Clarkson ever being more than a 33-34% from 3. |
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LakerMindLA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | LakerMindLA wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | Keep this simple.
Keep Clarkson. He's the only comfortable shot creator at guard/wing.
Keep Randle. Defensive versatility at 5/4 is hard to find. I don't care about his numbers per 36, because we did see the best and worst out of Randle last game, and frankly, you can't build a franchise around that. He's not a franchise player.
1 MAX contract slot open. Get Paul George. You're already dropping KCP and Lopez. You may as well start Ingram, and put PG13.1 at 2. When Ingram sits, slide PG13.1 to 3, and play more Josh Hart anyway. No need for Avery Bradley here. Hart does the same thing, and is FAR ahead by age in terms of development.
Play Thomas Bryant/Zubac. Not only have they earned their PT from the G-League, but now you need the size at 5 with Lopez gone and Randle getting bigger minutes at 5/4.
Gone:
Lopez
KCP
Add:
PG13.1
Bump up:
Bryant
Zubac
Simple. If we need another back up 5 because the other 2 guys aren't ready, Noah Vonleh is adequate. If we need more shooting, Bjelica from Minny is available. |
If you're getting PG13, I think you then trade Clarkson and try to keep KCP.
Clarkson's value as a shot creator/ scoring wing drops significantly with PG13 and he struggles a bit playing off the ball.
KCP's defense and potential as a 3pt shooter makes him a better fit with PG13. |
You think KCP wants to come off the bench? |
I think KCP will go to whatever team will pay him the most and Lakers could sell him on an Iggy role.
Lakers could finish the game with this line-up.
Lonzo
KCP
PG13
Ingram or Kuzma
Randle or Kuzma |
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AFireInside619
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Joined: 11 Dec 2015
Posts: 11447
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| If we only got PG, sure we should keep these two. |
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Mike@LG
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Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah MJST, we see the game differently.
To me, it screams foul when the best center in the NBA needs an All-Star next to him, to get around .500.
The whole thing about him putting up big numbers, just tells me he's taking shots away from someone else. I don't really care about basic statistics that much. I want specific skill sets. I want guys that I can trust to close games.
I don't think DMC is that guy. The whole reason why the Lakers have been effective with Randle at 5 is because of better PnR defense and vastly improved bigman D on guards on switches. Period.
Even stating "the best center in the NBA" seems like a fallacy. Who are the best players in the NBA? LeBron. Durant. Curry. Harden. Giannis. Anthony Davis. There are even younger guys that I'd easily take over Cousins. Porzingis. KAT. How bad is it when "the best center in the NBA" is arguably maybe Top 10, and the Lakers have to cover of their deficiencies? This isn't the 2000 Laker team where Shaq had an MVP year and essentially got away with his poor PnR coverage. Shaq couldn't switch either.
I don't even think he's the best center on his own team.
| Quote: |
True, but when you're talking about what Cousins is willing to accept as a role. Do you think Paul George who is a 2nd/3rd best guy on a Championship roster but still wants to be treated as the Number 1 guy, would accept essentially a "Hey, just be an off-ball sniper and be an upgraded KCP" role.
You want us to tell Paul George to 'be our Tyson Chandler'? Do you think he'd buy into that given what he's shown over the years and even recently about how good he thinks he is vs what the reality of his role most likely is? |
Why on earth would PG13.1 accept a smaller role on the Lakers? My point was that he directly fixes specific Laker weaknesses. He would also be the best shot creator on the team, as well as a finisher.
If anything, we'd need DMC to take on a Wilt '72 role to make this work. Think he's willing to do that? At least Wilt didn't have to worry about switches. DMC does.
I'd rather have WCS and PG13.1 instead of DMC. We have to have weird arguments about a guy who is TO prone, foul prone, has issues defending the perimeter, and isn't the most efficient shooter/scorer at the center position. We're not even talking intangibles.
| Quote: |
Boogie is a better rebounder and he shoots 36-37% from three on 6+ a game. So as much as we hate watching them use Lopez that way, it's actually a way Boogie could be used to effectiveness. |
If this is the case, you're overpaying for an interior defender/3pt shooter and not even maximizing his utility. As I said before, the Lakers do NOT have an issue with rebounding. They're #1 in the league. Getting Cousins doesn't necessarily fix what's broke. Until now, I haven't had a solid response to how the Pels are one of the FAR better shooting teams in the league (around 5th) 26th in rebounding, yet just over .500. Who do you think runs the team?
This whole idea of trying to "move the game forward" by having an advantage over GSW and Houston; well, I don't think it starts with a guy that would have been awesome in the late 90s and 00s.
You want to scare GSW/HOU? Make their defense work with Doncic passing, Trae Young shooting, Bagley's motor. Hell, have Mo Bamba at the rim with his generational combination of elite swatting ability AND the upside to switch to the perimeter. Even DeAndre Ayton moves his feet on defense. The NCAA world knows about big to little switches. No need to regress that skill on the team. Otherwise, when LAL makes the playoffs, because Zo is that good, I can just already see GSW and Houston forcing every switch in PnR and DMC vs. Steph and Harden all game long. At least Randle has a chance.
It's odd, but if you're building around Lonzo (and technically we already are because he's being treated as a franchise player), a high USG center doesn't come to mind when it comes to roster success.
Low USG guy that swats, runs, and has 3pt range with switchability? Yeah. That's Willie Cauley Stein. That's Noah Vonleh and Thomas Bryant without the switchability.
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Last edited by Mike@LG on Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike@LG
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerMindLA wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: |
If you're getting PG13, I think you then trade Clarkson and try to keep KCP. |
Disagree. Nothing wrong with having two or more shot creators. Even GSW runs with Durant and Curry.
I appreciate KCP's defense off-ball, rare on-ball, but the 3pt shot upside for him is no different than JC. Both guys are around 34%. |
I see PG13, Ingram and potentially Kuzma as the main shot creators.
KCP has the potential to be a 36-37% shooter from 3. He was 35% last year is trending up after a really bad January.
Don't see Clarkson ever being more than a 33-34% from 3. |
Why does KCP have this potential and Clarkson doesn't? That doesn't make sense to me. I don't see Ingram or Kuzma as the main shot creators. Ingram has shown signs, but both BI and Kuz are more efficient off-ball during the game. PG13.1 can breakdown an Iso move. Ingram, can't really. Kuzma, no.
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