Well. We're At The All-Star Break. Is It Fair To Comment Now?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:14 am    Post subject: Well. We're At The All-Star Break. Is It Fair To Comment Now?

During the pre-season, myself and a couple of others expressed concerns over several aspects involving the team. IIRC correctly, these concerns mostly centered on: whether or not the team had a legitimate 2nd scoring option to support Kobe; team defense; and, Lamar Odom's role in the triangle offense.

Needless to say, having the audacity to merely air these concerns met with a lot of opposition on this board. The term "pisser and moaner" was a popular phrase used to describe the few of us who refused to wear purple & gold-colored glasses and tow the party line that everything was all to the good. And IIRC, some members were actually banned when they got into "tiffs" with a moderator.

Despite that, there was one common theme from those who disagreed with me that made some amount of sense: And 1, you idiot!! It's only pre-season!

To which I replied: Fine, at what point do you believe it would be fair for me to make certain determinations?

Some answered a month into the regular season. Still others preferred to wait until the end of the season before making evaluations.

However, the majority of posters seemed to indicate that they would be able to address my (and others) concerns about these issues by the All-Star break.

Well, here I am.

The AS break for the Lakers began last night after a humiliating home loss to the Atlanta Hawks. The team is sitting right at .500 and I began to hear audible boos from the fans at Staples the game before.

As for the concerns I had during the preseason, all still exist today:

1) Despite some of his best play of his career, Kobe Bryant has absolutely no help when it comes to scoring. The league has learned that if you send 2-3 defenders at Kobe you stand a very good chance to when because no one else has the talent and/or mentality to be a consistent 2nd scoring option;

2) The defense has been atrocious. Very surprising in light of Phil Jackson's presence. Perimeter defense is terrible as opponents are easily able to get into the paint to cause damage. The saving grace has been that Kwame Brown has shown the ability mucsle up against opposing bigs. Unfortunately, this has been his only part of his game where he's shown any proficiency.

3) Lamar...Lamar...Lamar. I've got to say that, even though I've had serious issues with Lamar's game as far back as last season, he's really been a disappointment. I say that because I really felt that the Triangle offense would be the perfect fit for him. He wants to be a point guard and Phil Jackson wants a tall guard to run his offense. Seemed like a match made in heaven, right?

Well, not quite. As I suspected during the off-season, Lamar has demonstrated neither the talent, mentality, or work ethic to be what Phil Jackson envisions or this team needs. Despite six NBA off-seasons, he failed to develop a consistent mid-range or long-range perimeter game. Though put in alleged mismatch situations, he often declines to punish smaller defenders in the post. Oftentimes, the team's "second-best player" is invisible for significant portions of the game. He's shown a low basketball IQ as witnessed by poor decision-making late in games and weak-mindedness by allowing opponents to "get into his head" by mere talk.

But this post isn't designed to rant on about the team's deficiencies. Rather it's an attempt to revisit the issue of criticism with regard to this team. If a poster has the ability to peer down the tunnel and say That's a train coming towards us as opposed to daylight, is it fair to shun and label them as "pissers and moaners?" Especially when they might have a valid point?

And where do you stand on this team? Is it any different from the pre-season?

Do any of you care to revise your projections in terms of W & L's?

Do you like Phil jackson as your coach?

It's the All-Star break. Care to comment?
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KobeButler
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:14 am    Post subject:

relax, its only half of the season.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:15 am    Post subject:

Actually its past the half way point.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:17 am    Post subject:

Lionel The Laker wrote:
Actually its past the half way point.


Oh, I know.

It's just that, back during the pre-season, folks told me to wait until the AS break. I don't think that the team was playing very well at the midway point, so I decided to give them more time to try to get their act together.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:20 am    Post subject: Re: Well. We're At The All-Star Break. Is It Fair To Comment Now?

And 1 wrote:


And where do you stand on this team? Is it any different from the pre-season?

Do any of you care to revise your projections in terms of W & L's?

Do you like Phil jackson as your coach?

It's the All-Star break. Care to comment?


I pretty much stand now where I did when the season started. I think the Lakers can win 18 more games this season, which would put them at 44. I originally thought they would win between 42-45. All of that is based on good health, of course.

I think Phil is doing a good job, no surprise there.

I think the team will make the playoffs, as well.

I will be disappointed if the ending contracts, besides DG, aren't used to help the roster. It doesn't have to be a home run, just bring in a role player or two who can help defensively. DG is bringing real value to the team, so it would take a better player to improve on his roster spot.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:20 am    Post subject:

everything you said is true And 1.

this team has some major issues. if indeed no trades are made i expect us to not make the playoffs
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: Well. We're At The All-Star Break. Is It Fair To Comment Now?

And 1 wrote:
During the pre-season, myself and a couple of others expressed concerns over several aspects involving the team. IIRC correctly, these concerns mostly centered on: whether or not the team had a legitimate 2nd scoring option to support Kobe; team defense; and, Lamar Odom's role in the triangle offense.

Needless to say, having the audacity to merely air these concerns met with a lot of opposition on this board. The term "pisser and moaner" was a popular phrase used to describe the few of us who refused to wear purple & gold-colored glasses and tow the party line that everything was all to the good. And IIRC, some members were actually banned when they got into "tiffs" with a moderator.

Despite that, there was one common theme from those who disagreed with me that made some amount of sense: And 1, you idiot!! It's only pre-season!

To which I replied: Fine, at what point do you believe it would be fair for me to make certain determinations?

Some answered a month into the regular season. Still others preferred to wait until the end of the season before making evaluations.

However, the majority of posters seemed to indicate that they would be able to address my (and others) concerns about these issues by the All-Star break.

Well, here I am.

The AS break for the Lakers began last night after a humiliating home loss to the Atlanta Hawks. The team is sitting right at .500 and I began to hear audible boos from the fans at Staples the game before.

As for the concerns I had during the preseason, all still exist today:

1) Despite some of his best play of his career, Kobe Bryant has absolutely no help when it comes to scoring. The league has learned that if you send 2-3 defenders at Kobe you stand a very good chance to when because no one else has the talent and/or mentality to be a consistent 2nd scoring option;

2) The defense has been atrocious. Very surprising in light of Phil Jackson's presence. Perimeter defense is terrible as opponents are easily able to get into the paint to cause damage. The saving grace has been that Kwame Brown has shown the ability mucsle up against opposing bigs. Unfortunately, this has been his only part of his game where he's shown any proficiency.

3) Lamar...Lamar...Lamar. I've got to say that, even though I've had serious issues with Lamar's game as far back as last season, he's really been a disappointment. I say that because I really felt that the Triangle offense would be the perfect fit for him. He wants to be a point guard and Phil Jackson wants a tall guard to run his offense. Seemed like a match made in heaven, right?

Well, not quite. As I suspected during the off-season, Lamar has demonstrated neither the talent, mentality, or work ethic to be what Phil Jackson envisions or this team needs. Despite six NBA off-seasons, he failed to develop a consistent mid-range or long-range perimeter game. Though put in alleged mismatch situations, he often declines to punish smaller defenders in the post. Oftentimes, the team's "second-best player" is invisible for significant portions of the game. He's shown a low basketball IQ as witnessed by poor decision-making late in games and weak-mindedness by allowing opponents to "get into his head" by mere talk.

But this post isn't designed to rant on about the team's deficiencies. Rather it's an attempt to revisit the issue of criticism with regard to this team. If a poster has the ability to peer down the tunnel and say That's a train coming towards us as opposed to daylight, is it fair to shun and label them as "pissers and moaners?" Especially when they might have a valid point?

And where do you stand on this team? Is it any different from the pre-season?

Do any of you care to revise your projections in terms of W & L's?

Do you like Phil jackson as your coach?

It's the All-Star break. Care to comment?


Nice post. Those of us with "vision" are the clear minority on this board, but it doesn't make us wrong or any less loyal - just realistic.

The facts keep resonating loud and clear - not that it makes me feel any better. I'd love to be wrong, but that's not likely.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:24 am    Post subject:

now is a fair time to biatch AND 1, but your biatching in the preseason was way to early.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:30 am    Post subject:

vvbandit wrote:
now is a fair time to biatch AND 1, but your biatching in the preseason was way to early.


True.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:31 am    Post subject:

^^

Some might say that making determinations at the AS break is "way too early."

I would argue that "realists" can see problems (and perhaps, try to head them off) significantly sooner than those who might be classified as "homers."

Homers seem to be hesitant to take the type of action they know need to be taken due to a belief that their team can do no wrong.

Even today, I see posts proclaiming that "everything's all right."

Isn't that what the stewards told the pasengers on the Titanic?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:41 am    Post subject:

And 1 wrote:
^^

Some might say that making determinations at the AS break is "way too early."

I would argue that "realists" can see problems (and perhaps, try to head them off) significantly sooner than those who might be classified as "homers."

Homers seem to be hesitant to take the type of action they know need to be taken due to a belief that their team can do no wrong.

Even today, I see posts proclaiming that "everything's all right."

Isn't that what the stewards told the pasengers on the Titanic?


What are you talking about? It's still too early to (bleep) and complain about the 2003-04 Lakers, let alone this year's team!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:41 am    Post subject:

we're just not a very good team. average at best. either moves will be made this week (good chance)...or we'll wait until we have cap space.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:42 am    Post subject:

Nice post And 1. You are dead on.

The way I see it, we absolutely must improve our PG position before the trade deadline. No if's or maybe's about it. I share your concerns about Lamar as well. I am absolutely sickened every time I see this 6'10 forward who has no 3pt shooting ability simply hovering above the 3pt line possession after possession. The last couple games he has improved on this point, but we all know what Lamar is: he is a very good 3rd/4th option making 1st/2nd option $. So if a good deal materializes for Odom, then trade him now too... if not, I guess you have to wait on that one, but I will be extremely agitated if we don't at least bring in a decent PG.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:58 am    Post subject:

You should keep quiet until after the 2008 season when Kobe decides to opt out because he has seen no improvement for the last three years and no realistic plan for acquiring talent for the rest of his career.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Well. We're At The All-Star Break. Is It Fair To Comment Now?

raffi wrote:


Nice post. Those of us with "vision" are the clear minority on this board, but it doesn't make us wrong or any less loyal - just realistic.

The facts keep resonating loud and clear - not that it makes me feel any better. I'd love to be wrong, but that's not likely.


I am curious. Why do you call it "vision" when someone complains and pisses and moans and throws out a constant barrage of trade demands to address every single problem that occurs in every single individual game? Yet when someone suggests patience and taking the time to see which of our young players develops so we KNOW what our long term needs are, you call it being a "homer".

The NBA is litered with the corpses of teams that took the short term approach you all suggest. Look at the Knicks ... they are the epitome of a team run with no true "vision" but rather a short sighted "do it now?" approach that so many fans advocate in this forum. Had we done what the fans demanded this off-season, we would be a team peopled by the likes of Anderson, Hunter, Jerome James, Ely, etc etc and would not only be in last place but we'd be locked out of any cap flexibility until 2012.

We may not go far this season but we WILL know exactly what we need. And right now it is apparent that Smush and Sasha are NOT the backcourt of the future while Mihm and Bynum have progressed better than we had hoped. Your "vision" is nothing more than the ability to look at a single game and see what caused a specific loss. That's not "vision". That is shortsightedness that has, thankfully, never plagued this franchise and, hopefully, never will.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:25 pm    Post subject:

I'm not worried. Phil said that this team as is -his team then-would make the playoffs
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:36 pm    Post subject:

I am currently happy with how we are progressing. I think we blew several games, and that we are better than our record.

We are a young team. When we play well we look pretty damn good out there. Our biggest flaw is people being stunted in the Tri, and slacking in team D. And that's stuff to expect with a young team. We will only be getting better as the season goes on.

Now I don't think at all we have a team to win a championship with, but that's not expected while rebuilding.

I do think we need an upgrade at the PG.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Well. We're At The All-Star Break. Is It Fair To Comment Now?

Just_Looking wrote:
raffi wrote:


Nice post. Those of us with "vision" are the clear minority on this board, but it doesn't make us wrong or any less loyal - just realistic.

The facts keep resonating loud and clear - not that it makes me feel any better. I'd love to be wrong, but that's not likely.


<snipped>

I am curious. Why do you call it "vision" when someone complains and pisses and moans and throws out a constant barrage of trade demands to address every single problem that occurs in every single individual game? Yet when someone suggests patience and taking the time to see which of our young players develops so we KNOW what our long term needs are, you call it being a "homer".

The NBA is litered with the corpses of teams that took the short term approach you all suggest. Look at the Knicks ... they are the epitome of a team run with no true "vision" but rather a short sighted "do it now?" approach that so many fans advocate in this forum. Had we done what the fans demanded this off-season, we would be a team peopled by the likes of Anderson, Hunter, Jerome James, Ely, etc etc and would not only be in last place but we'd be locked out of any cap flexibility until 2012.

We may not go far this season but we WILL know exactly what we need. And right now it is apparent that Smush and Sasha are NOT the backcourt of the future while Mihm and Bynum have progressed better than we had hoped. Your "vision" is nothing more than the ability to look at a single game and see what caused a specific loss. That's not "vision". That is shortsightedness that has, thankfully, never plagued this franchise and, hopefully, never will.


This is kinda my point.

Some of us knew what we needed as far back as the off-season.

And when legitimate concerns were raised during the pre-season, some decided to play the "patience" card.

As I've said in this thread, and in others, patience is a relative term. For some patience can only be exercised until the AS break. For others, they need a season or two.

I keep referring to a thread that was posted a few weeks ago (during a small stretch where the team was playing well) where someone, I'd classify as a homer, wrote that the Lakers shouldn't make any moves whatsoever. Their feeling was that all this team needed to succeed was time to "gel." In essence, they played the "patience" card.

But what the poster never addressed was what the team would eventually "gel" into. A championship team? A championship-caliber one?
Or maybe just a .500 team?

It shouldn't have taken a genius very long to figure out that exercising patience with this team wouldn't get you very far.

As a result, those who can see trouble on the horizon, ignore the yahoo-ism and speak out. Honestly, exercising patience with Kwame Brown will get you...what?

As for proposed "shortsighted" decisions that might have brought questionable players into the organization, no one can control what gets posted on this message board.

I do know, however, that there were a few well-thought out plans of action that might have made us more competitive this season and the future.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:01 pm    Post subject:

The season started out so well where Kobe was a beast and never took a 3. I honestly thought 53 wins was possible because Smush also started out very well and shocked everyone.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Well. We're At The All-Star Break. Is It Fair To Comment Now?

And 1 wrote:


This is kinda my point.

Some of us knew what we needed as far back as the off-season.

And when legitimate concerns were raised during the pre-season, some decided to play the "patience" card.

As I've said in this thread, and in others, patience is a relative term. For some patience can only be exercised until the AS break. For others, they need a season or two.

I keep referring to a thread that was posted a few weeks ago (during a small stretch where the team was playing well) where someone, I'd classify as a homer, wrote that the Lakers shouldn't make any moves whatsoever. Their feeling was that all this team needed to succeed was time to "gel." In essence, they played the "patience" card.

But what the poster never addressed was what the team would eventually "gel" into. A championship team? A championship-caliber one?
Or maybe just a .500 team?

It shouldn't have taken a genius very long to figure out that exercising patience with this team wouldn't get you very far.

As a result, those who can see trouble on the horizon, ignore the yahoo-ism and speak out. Honestly, exercising patience with Kwame Brown will get you...what?

As for proposed "shortsighted" decisions that might have brought questionable players into the organization, no one can control what gets posted on this message board.

I do know, however, that there were a few well-thought out plans of action that might have made us more competitive this season and the future.


I've been following this forum for a couple of years now and I honestly never remember anyone having such great insight that they proposed the prefect solution to returning to the finals without including a healthy does of "pipe". Myself included.

The vast, vast majority of so-called "realists" and self-appointed "visionaries" would have traded Mihm this past off-season for a used jock strap and a bag of balls. Thank God the Lakers saw more in him than they did.

And again ... most "realists" were screaming to get rid of George and Cook ... perhaps the only players who have given us anything off the bench.

The point of having vision is not knowing that we need help. Lord knows we ALL knew back in preseason that this was a flawed team. The trick is to really understand your own roster first and who is a keeper AND who will evetually be worth trading. And then build for the future NOT just the here and now. Had we traded Mihm for the crap that most people wanted it would have been a HUGE mistake. Now that he is showing signs of developing into a decent starting center, his trade value is much higher. If we need to include him we have a far better chance of getting someone decent in return.

Just to use the biggest "pipe" example there is ... if KG DOES comes on the market after this season, an offer of Odom, Mihm, Smush, and draft picks does not sound totally out of line. Would that have been the case if we had traded Mihm for say Watson in the offseason???
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:10 pm    Post subject:

In the preseason i think if we're at least 50% at all star break we made the PO and I confirm it.IMO
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:34 pm    Post subject:

Keep: Kwame- Phil said he'll take time and he's shown good defense occasionally
Smush- we arent even paying this guy 1 mil and he's giving us offensive sparks
Mihm- I think he will become a decent center
Odom- has more experience in being the facilitator than anyone else in the league except kobe and is able to get near triple-doubles
Bryant Bynum Wafer Turiaf

Trade: George- has an expiring contract
Cook- lack of defense and is more inconsistent than odom
Slava Sasha Luke - I sigh whenever they get in the game
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:48 pm    Post subject:

last summer i wrote here many times that we had too many soft players and we lacked a defensive oriented pg, an outside shooter, a blocker... but now, after several months and games, i have instead to say that we have too many soft players and we lack a defensive oriented pg, an outside shooter and a blocker... we have the best player on this planet, a terrific potential (bynum), a good center (mihm), and yes, i still think that luke's iq is not bad for the triple post offense...
odom, kwame, cook, sasha, always were and always will be soft players, while we definitely need character, passion, will, fire... smush showed some improvement but he's definitely not starting five stuff (there's a reason if last season larry brown and mike d'antoni had smush in their teams and released him after few days)... mckie was a good and smart team player, but he's dead from a couple of years...
i never tought that we needed eddy curry or banks or daniels or stromile swift... i'm happy that we didn't get players with questionable attitude like boozer or francis or even baron davis... in these days i think that trade odom for channing frye would be totally insensate... it's not about trading for the taste of trading...
but with these players we are and still will be a very mediocre team... we can be patient, but with patience still you can't draw blood from stones... waiting for greatest opportunities, i would like at this point trade cook and sasha for duhon, and george and slava for gerald wallace... not superstars, but team players with great intensity and great defensive attitude... this team so far hasn't any strong identity... in order to create a strong identity, we need players with mental strenght... but that's something that we knew also in preseason, or not?...
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:55 pm    Post subject:

Look/ Commenting is all fine. The question now is what do we do about it. Where do we go from here. People who predicted doomsday early on weren't right, but there are a lot of weaknesses on this team and we need to talk about them if we are gonna improve them. I do agree that this board is a little harsh when we talk about our problems. We need to understand where we need to improve.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:26 pm    Post subject:

Ank wrote:
Look/ Commenting is all fine. The question now is what do we do about it. Where do we go from here. People who predicted doomsday early on weren't right, but there are a lot of weaknesses on this team and we need to talk about them if we are gonna improve them. I do agree that this board is a little harsh when we talk about our problems. We need to understand where we need to improve.


As far as I can recall, most realists didn't predict "doomsday." This term was attributed to many of us who refused to wear the P&G-colored glasses. I recall that valid concerns were raised (as was outlined in the first post), and corrective measures proposed.

As for saying that many of us weren't right, in terms of making determinations from watching pre-season games, you'll have to explain that. I've already provided three major observations from the pre-season that still appear to be major problems.

Where do we go from here?

Hard to say. I've been labeled as being overly critical on this board (whether it be against Odom, Mihm, or Kwame). But I'm unsure if the one person, who I'd like to criticize the most (Kupchak), can even be held accountable for anything more than the poor use of the MLE.

That's because I've no idea who is running the Laker ship right now.
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