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adkindo
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 Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| fwiw, this draft is loaded with guys that are projected to be 2nd and 3rd PG's in the NBA in the late 1st through the late 2nd Round. PG is becoming a saturated position in the league. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Knicks are the best landing spot for him IMO. A 1 year deal where he can start until Franky is ready to be the man, or Mudiay. I don't think either is ready and not sure if the Knicks want to extend Mudiay for long term either.
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adkindo
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Knicks are the best landing spot for him IMO. A 1 year deal where he can start until Franky is ready to be the man, or Mudiay. I don't think either is ready and not sure if the Knicks want to extend Mudiay for long term either. |
hear some speculation they will seek a PG in the draft again.....not much love for Ntilikina....if Young or Sexton slip to them...or even Shai Gilgeous-Alexander. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Knicks are the best landing spot for him IMO. A 1 year deal where he can start until Franky is ready to be the man, or Mudiay. I don't think either is ready and not sure if the Knicks want to extend Mudiay for long term either. |
hear some speculation they will seek a PG in the draft again.....not much love for Ntilikina....if Young or Sexton slip to them...or even Shai Gilgeous-Alexander. |
Yeah. Their PG rotation is problematic. Maybe Franky can be a combo guard, play SG. I don't see the greatest PG instincts from him or Mudiay.
IT/Porky could be an interesting PnR duo. IT could start there, but not be the future of the team. MLE is all the Knicks could offer, but probably not too many years.
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adkindo
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Knicks are the best landing spot for him IMO. A 1 year deal where he can start until Franky is ready to be the man, or Mudiay. I don't think either is ready and not sure if the Knicks want to extend Mudiay for long term either. |
hear some speculation they will seek a PG in the draft again.....not much love for Ntilikina....if Young or Sexton slip to them...or even Shai Gilgeous-Alexander. |
Yeah. Their PG rotation is problematic. Maybe Franky can be a combo guard, play SG. I don't see the greatest PG instincts from him or Mudiay.
IT/Porky could be an interesting PnR duo. IT could start there, but not be the future of the team. MLE is all the Knicks could offer, but probably not too many years. |
but I am sure scoring a lot in MSG would interest him.....it's a big stage. |
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | And yet here we are once again where you've provided the groundwork for this mythical replacement but no names who actually fill that need adequately. I'm aware the fit isn't perfect... but I simply think his other attributes, most prominent which is scoring, help to offset his deficiencies. |
No, what I'm saying is you arbitrarily assign "scoring PG" as the measure to compare these players, all the while discounting IT's "not 6th man" comment (which disqualifies him) and the Lakers "sacred" cap space which they will not burn on extending IT long term.
You are trying to see this in a biased vacuum, when the "not 6th man" and "sacred cap space" should destroy that vacuum entirely (let alone other options who are not scoring PGs can be just as valuable). |
Players I am happy to sign for point guard instead of IT
Damien... Take him over IT in a minute but he would require losing assets
Kemba... less enthusiastic but still would take him... but also would require losing assets and a lot of cap space.
Seth... would take him based on potential and probably lower price tag
Tyreke... 50/50 on this one... having a career year shooting wise and if he keeps it up he'd be a fine addition even though I'm not sure about him as a playmaker.
Rondo... maybe but very worried to sign two non shooting PGs... if Lonzo were shooting well, I'd take him in a minute as a backup.
Who I'm not willing to take... nearly every other backup PG brought up in these discussions. I'd have more hope in Caruso's development (who I still want as the third)
I agree IT is a long shot to sign... because of what he said... but I also think that fate has been cruel to him, so he can say he's not a sixth man till he's blue in the face and that might not change the reality. However, there might be one place that wants him and I agree he would be a good fit in New York where marketing geniuses would love to play up the Boston/NY rivalry by having IT feeding Porzingis and replacing crappy Mudiay. So I do accept that we probably don't get him because of the good likelihood of LBJ/PG and the possibility of an enticing market of NYC that might be waiting for him as a starter.
If though, those plans don't pan out... we should move heaven and earth (though not too much capspace) to try to think of a way to keep him. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Knicks are the best landing spot for him IMO. A 1 year deal where he can start until Franky is ready to be the man, or Mudiay. I don't think either is ready and not sure if the Knicks want to extend Mudiay for long term either. |
hear some speculation they will seek a PG in the draft again.....not much love for Ntilikina....if Young or Sexton slip to them...or even Shai Gilgeous-Alexander. |
Yeah. Their PG rotation is problematic. Maybe Franky can be a combo guard, play SG. I don't see the greatest PG instincts from him or Mudiay.
IT/Porky could be an interesting PnR duo. IT could start there, but not be the future of the team. MLE is all the Knicks could offer, but probably not too many years. |
but I am sure scoring a lot in MSG would interest him.....it's a big stage. |
Yup. They're not looking like playoff contenders anyways, why not try to recreate ITsanity?
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Damien... Take him over IT in a minute but he would require losing assets
Kemba... less enthusiastic but still would take him... but also would require losing assets and a lot of cap space.
Seth... would take him based on potential and probably lower price tag
Tyreke... 50/50 on this one... having a career year shooting wise and if he keeps it up he'd be a fine addition even though I'm not sure about him as a playmaker.
Rondo... maybe but very worried to sign two non shooting PGs... if Lonzo were shooting well, I'd take him in a minute as a backup. |
Oh my. For "backup" PG?
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | Damien... Take him over IT in a minute but he would require losing assets
Kemba... less enthusiastic but still would take him... but also would require losing assets and a lot of cap space.
Seth... would take him based on potential and probably lower price tag
Tyreke... 50/50 on this one... having a career year shooting wise and if he keeps it up he'd be a fine addition even though I'm not sure about him as a playmaker.
Rondo... maybe but very worried to sign two non shooting PGs... if Lonzo were shooting well, I'd take him in a minute as a backup. |
Oh my. For "backup" PG? |
I've said over and over that Lonzo needs help... whether from a backup, a reliable sub... or even a temporary mentor who starts.
IT is a good answer because if we had him for a few years, he covers Zo's weaknesses by scoring, and Zo can cover IT's weaknesses with his good defense. I liked him because he was a once elite talent who fell into our laps... and it could be a mutually beneficial relationship where he builds back his reputation while Zo learns his craft. I don't think we can ignore the perils involved with only relying on Lonzo for a playoff run. Even if he progresses as Ingram did next year... he would be fine during the regular season but perhaps a worry during the playoffs where you cannot have dry spells. I'm not ignoring Hart in this scenario... He plays equal minutes in a platoon with the other three.
So yes... whether a starter or a very good backup... if we are going to discard IT... I'd like one of those to replace him. I realize Damien is a pipe dream but the others are achievable... if we don't try for those then we should keep him if the Knicks don't give him a crazy offer. |
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | What part of "I'm not a 6th man" do we not get? Do you think it's going to end well when you pitch him on that?
And as someone who believes in advanced stats, why are you only using 20 point games as some sort of indicator? Look at the whole picture. His TS% is down for example. |
Because I thought it might penetrate people's heads better that IT had more 20 point games by himself than our entire starting lineup did.
If I had time I could go through every stat... but although I'm unhappy with his play, I still try to sign him. If we give him an offer and fail... I can live with that... but I just don't want the FO to be dumb and not even try.
You are probably right that we can't sign him... but all I want is the effort. A creative attempt to find the solution. |
I think you're making too big of a deal for something that IT himself isn't looking for (to be a backup to Lonzo for the next few years and non-starter) and the Lakers oft stated FA plans.
I genuinely believe the Lakers desired, in order:
1. cap space
2. Cavs 1st (for draft or in Deng trade)
3. IT/Frye.
They absolutely achieved their goal and the consternation about extending IT long term misses the team's goals. |
The idea of Lonzo plus a scrub running the point next season doesn't frighten you. It does frighten me. I'd rather have IT for cover. If we get LBJ then I won't worry. |
IT is a scorer. He’s labeled a PG strictly because of his size. He doesn’t “run the point” really at all unless you consider calling for an on ball “running the point” which I don’t. Our offense looks drastically different when he’s the primary ball handler. Sometimes for the better because he can score but sometimes it hinders the offense. Combine that with his defensive struggles and I don’t think he should be considered a very effective player. |
He's not as good as Lonzo at the point but he's better than most players... he had way more assists than Clarkson until this recent slump.
He has the vision but he's a little too risky and careless... his height also cuts off certain passing lanes... but he's made many good plays and the fact that he can penetrate and pass out gives us a dimension that Zo hasn't learned yet. |
All Zo does is pass out after penetration. What he's not going to do is try to dribble into 2 or 3 defenders without a plan, and then just hope there's an available pass if he gets in trouble. Honestly, I can't think of a worse influence on a PG. |
Who's your solution to replace IT?... one who won't cost us any assets. |
Well since he's a net negative on the floor, just about any backup PG off the scrap heap will do. As the stat at the top shows, he's been only slightly more effective than Tyler Ennis.
But since I gather you want a name, go with Caruso. |
I like Caruso and hope he's the third backup... definitely can see him developing into a sixth man type player... but he's not there yet and I think we need someone more reliable for a playoff run next season. |
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Judah
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | What part of "I'm not a 6th man" do we not get? Do you think it's going to end well when you pitch him on that?
And as someone who believes in advanced stats, why are you only using 20 point games as some sort of indicator? Look at the whole picture. His TS% is down for example. |
Because I thought it might penetrate people's heads better that IT had more 20 point games by himself than our entire starting lineup did.
If I had time I could go through every stat... but although I'm unhappy with his play, I still try to sign him. If we give him an offer and fail... I can live with that... but I just don't want the FO to be dumb and not even try.
You are probably right that we can't sign him... but all I want is the effort. A creative attempt to find the solution. |
I think you're making too big of a deal for something that IT himself isn't looking for (to be a backup to Lonzo for the next few years and non-starter) and the Lakers oft stated FA plans.
I genuinely believe the Lakers desired, in order:
1. cap space
2. Cavs 1st (for draft or in Deng trade)
3. IT/Frye.
They absolutely achieved their goal and the consternation about extending IT long term misses the team's goals. |
The idea of Lonzo plus a scrub running the point next season doesn't frighten you. It does frighten me. I'd rather have IT for cover. If we get LBJ then I won't worry. |
IT is a scorer. He’s labeled a PG strictly because of his size. He doesn’t “run the point” really at all unless you consider calling for an on ball “running the point” which I don’t. Our offense looks drastically different when he’s the primary ball handler. Sometimes for the better because he can score but sometimes it hinders the offense. Combine that with his defensive struggles and I don’t think he should be considered a very effective player. |
He's not as good as Lonzo at the point but he's better than most players... he had way more assists than Clarkson until this recent slump.
He has the vision but he's a little too risky and careless... his height also cuts off certain passing lanes... but he's made many good plays and the fact that he can penetrate and pass out gives us a dimension that Zo hasn't learned yet. |
All Zo does is pass out after penetration. What he's not going to do is try to dribble into 2 or 3 defenders without a plan, and then just hope there's an available pass if he gets in trouble. Honestly, I can't think of a worse influence on a PG. |
Who's your solution to replace IT?... one who won't cost us any assets. |
Well since he's a net negative on the floor, just about any backup PG off the scrap heap will do. As the stat at the top shows, he's been only slightly more effective than Tyler Ennis.
But since I gather you want a name, go with Caruso. |
I like Caruso and hope he's the third backup... definitely can see him developing into a sixth man type player... but he's not there yet and I think we need someone more reliable for a playoff run next season. |
If he can become a little more reliable as a shooter and avoid those occasional moments of overpassing, I'd be thrilled if he was Lonzo's backup. He's a 6'6 point guard who moves the ball similarly to Lonzo, seems to have a high basketball IQ, and plays extremely hard defensively. He fits the system well.
He also seems like a team first guy and will sign for cheap. He's far from a lock to be brought back, but he still checks more boxes than Isaiah does and it isn't even close.
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Dr. Funkbot
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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As some of you have pointed out, he has played like crap since his I am not a sixth man interview came out. I mean like night and day.
I was pleasantly surprised by his game up until that point. Now he is just playing like a shorter Clarkson.
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noahp45
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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IT needs a great pick and roll player to maximize his potential. Maybe the Lakers can trade Deng and a pic plus Zu for Marc Gasol and resign IT.
Ball
PG13
Gasol
Randle
BI
Kuzma
Hart
IT |
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Daphanabe
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| ^^No to Marc Gasol, just to maximize IT. Caps us as 2nd round fodder. Lakers are aiming for championships and their moves will reflect that. No half measures - leave that for the Utahs and Pacers of the world. |
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LakerSD
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:02 am Post subject: |
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Heh.
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trablos
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| LakerSD wrote: | https://twitter.com/taniaganguli/status/976314117333094401?s=21
Well then...now he’s cool with 6th man role?
Look who is the first in comments  |
Say what you want about his game, but the guy is very hard to root against. He's doing everything asked of him and doesn't set limits for himself. Why shouldn't he want to be a multiple time all star and win championships? I like that mindset rubbing off on the likes of Kuz, Ball, Randle and Ingram. If he's okay with being our Ginobli then a long term deal might not be out of the question. |
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LakerSD
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| trablos wrote: | | LakerSD wrote: | https://twitter.com/taniaganguli/status/976314117333094401?s=21
Well then...now he’s cool with 6th man role?
Look who is the first in comments |
Say what you want about his game, but the guy is very hard to root against. He's doing everything asked of him and doesn't set limits for himself. Why shouldn't he want to be a multiple time all star and win championships? I like that mindset rubbing off on the likes of Kuz, Ball, Randle and Ingram. If he's okay with being our Ginobli then a long term deal might not be out of the question. |
If he wants to be the 6th man, I will welcome him with open arms. He’s the best 6th man you could ask for imo. People will say Lou, JC or Eric Gordon but none of them open up the offense for the team like IT.
If he’s cool with 6th man, Lakers FO needs to have a handshake deal with him done now. If he is still all about being a starter, then thanks IT and good luck on your next team. |
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Inspector Gadget
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| If IT has changed his tune and is willing to come back next year in a back up role, then he might be willing to come back on a discount which would still give us a chance at getting max FAs |
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HumanVictoryCigar
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| LakerSD wrote: | | trablos wrote: | | LakerSD wrote: | https://twitter.com/taniaganguli/status/976314117333094401?s=21
Well then...now he’s cool with 6th man role?
Look who is the first in comments |
Say what you want about his game, but the guy is very hard to root against. He's doing everything asked of him and doesn't set limits for himself. Why shouldn't he want to be a multiple time all star and win championships? I like that mindset rubbing off on the likes of Kuz, Ball, Randle and Ingram. If he's okay with being our Ginobli then a long term deal might not be out of the question. |
If he wants to be the 6th man, I will welcome him with open arms. He’s the best 6th man you could ask for imo. People will say Lou, JC or Eric Gordon but none of them open up the offense for the team like IT.
If he’s cool with 6th man, Lakers FO needs to have a handshake deal with him done now. If he is still all about being a starter, then thanks IT and good luck on your next team. |
I'm fine with that but they (including UCLA), need to clear up this "hip" thing. If he needs surgery, I'm afraid he's going to wait until after he signs somewhere to suddenly "discover" he needs surgery. These last few games at least imply he's still having some issues with it or... maybe he drops off a cliff for a week at a time during a typical season, what do I know?  The broader question is, can he keep rehabbing it for the rest of the season and come back next year closer to say, 90% of his old self? or if he needs surgery, too bad we couldn't figure out a way to give him the wink, wink as far as contract status and he could go ahead and do it now and come back stronger next season. |
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LakerSD
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| ^No doubt. There has to be due diligence on medicals, etc. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:47 am Post subject: |
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If he comes back it would need to be a 1 year deal. Needs to show more recovery from his hip injury and a bench player mindset first before anything longer than 1 year. This is all assuming we miss out on pg/lbj.
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| Well now that he's opened his mind to play 6th man and more importantly, shown respect for the organization... we have to sign him if he's passes medical and we don't sign both the maxes. He's the perfect insurance policy if Lonzo struggles... and we still can draft Shamet and his 7 foot wingspan and 66% TS too. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:53 am Post subject: |
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If Thomas came back it'd likely be on a 1+1 deal with a Player Option on the 2nd season.
Also, it would have to be as a 6th man.
Be aware, we have his Bird's rights AND his cap hold is cheaper than Clarkson's contract was. This is very advantageous for us.
We can essentially sign him and Randle after we know what's happening with the Max free agents, and assuming we get one or such, we can go over the cap to re-sign both Randle and Thomas, and their cap holds for that first season works very much in our favor.
So even if we had to overpay Thomas on a 1+1, that first season his contract will only hit the cap less than Clarkson's would have.
So again, that works to our advantage when you're crunching numbers about your max's.
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Jesusdelonla
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | If Thomas came back it'd likely be on a 1+1 deal with a Player Option on the 2nd season.
Also, it would have to be as a 6th man.
Be aware, we have his Bird's rights AND his cap hold is cheaper than Clarkson's contract was. This is very advantageous for us.
We can essentially sign him and Randle after we know what's happening with the Max free agents, and assuming we get one or such, we can go over the cap to re-sign both Randle and Thomas, and their cap holds for that first season works very much in our favor.
So even if we had to overpay Thomas on a 1+1, that first season his contract will only hit the cap less than Clarkson's would have.
So again, that works to our advantage when you're crunching numbers about your max's. |
2 things:
after his injury he won't sign a smaller deal.
he wants to be a MVP/All star, so i doubt he will agree to being a 6th man |
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