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Lakesh0wtime
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Joined: 28 Mar 2016
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 Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| kobeandgary wrote: | | Lakesh0wtime wrote: | Unless they're Lebron or magic. We really can't expect anyone to be a franchise player/superstar from the start.
I think Lonzo and Ingram have the best chance on our team, but they're still super young |
Ingram seems to have zero chance, and Ball drastically needs to improve if he hopes to be. |
How does Ingram not have a chance? |
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kobeandgary
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Joined: 18 Apr 2004
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Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| Lakesh0wtime wrote: | | kobeandgary wrote: | | Lakesh0wtime wrote: | Unless they're Lebron or magic. We really can't expect anyone to be a franchise player/superstar from the start.
I think Lonzo and Ingram have the best chance on our team, but they're still super young |
Ingram seems to have zero chance, and Ball drastically needs to improve if he hopes to be. |
How does Ingram not have a chance? |
Because he seriously lacks in talent and ball handling. Watching him dribble reminds me of Tayshaun Prince. He can be a good player, but will never be a superstar. |
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kobe_somebody_odom
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Joined: 02 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:18 am Post subject: |
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Ingram and Ball clearly have superstar potential. Now its up to good health and hard work. IT is one year removed from superstar/MVP candidate
Kuzma and Randle are all-star potential. Brook Lopez had all-star potential.
Everyone else falls somewhere below although guys like Josh Hart and KCP could have Eric Gordon level impact at some point. |
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J.C. Smith
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| kobeandgary wrote: | | Quote: |
How does Ingram not have a chance? |
Because he seriously lacks in talent and ball handling. Watching him dribble reminds me of Tayshaun Prince. He can be a good player, but will never be a superstar. |
He could tighten up his handles, but to say he seriously lacks in talent is a serious stretch. He's a stretch monster with good dexterity for someone that size, and on top of that he's a good leaper. Ball handling is a skill that can be improved. He's twenty years old. |
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Car54
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Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 14424
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| kobeandgary wrote: | | Lakesh0wtime wrote: | | kobeandgary wrote: | | Lakesh0wtime wrote: | Unless they're Lebron or magic. We really can't expect anyone to be a franchise player/superstar from the start.
I think Lonzo and Ingram have the best chance on our team, but they're still super young |
Ingram seems to have zero chance, and Ball drastically needs to improve if he hopes to be. |
How does Ingram not have a chance? |
Because he seriously lacks in talent and ball handling. Watching him dribble reminds me of Tayshaun Prince. He can be a good player, but will never be a superstar. |
LOL this guy here. If everyone judged Yannis as quick as you judged Ingram he would have been out of the league. LOL. BI is a good passer, good defender, good rebounder, gets to the basket almost every time he wants to. Knows how to finishnafter contact and over players. And now he's shooting 39% from 3 in year two.
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Dumhead
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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Dunno why anyone is is bothered by this. Whether Sir Charles is a buffoon or not is beside the point. He's right. It's not even worth arguing. No one on the current roster is a super-star... yet. They may well be someday. But not yet. And just because Lonzo is out doing Lip Sync Battle doesn't mean that he's ascended to basketball superstardom.
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Buck32
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Joined: 30 Apr 2001
Posts: 7329
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | I think there are 7 superstars currently in the NBA - LeBron, Westbrook, Harden, Steph, Durant, Giannis and Leonard.
Here are the 22 to 25 year old guys who could still make the leap - Porzingis, KAT, Anthony Davis, and Embiid.
Here are the under 22 guys who, IMO, have the potential to become superstars, but it will remain to be seen: Dennis Smith, Ball, Ingram, Tatum, Mitchell, Fultz, and Simmons.
Honorable Mentions: Booker, Wiggins, Russell, Aaron Gordon, Jamal Murray, Nokic and Fox.
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The 2017 draft was pretty amazing if you think about it. |
Kyrie is not a superstar? I'd put him in the list before Giannis.
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Fortysixn2
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Joined: 22 Jun 2016
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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He’s right, there are no current superstars on our team. Being a superstar means being one of the top 10 talents in the league and performing at that level and taking your team at least into the playoffs multiple times.
The only potential “Superstar” we have is lonzo. He has ridiculous hands, vision and anticipation. Guys like BI or Kuz, they have talent but they don’t have any singular amazing gifts...unless they become all time % 3 pt shooters there is actually no chance for them to become “superstars”.
Lonzo has a long long long long way to go, but the talents that I listed above have him at least with the potential to get there. Whether he gets there or not has to do with his work ethic and honestly, some luck...there are a lot of really special players that never make it there because of the team they are on or injuries. |
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kobeandgary
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Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | kobeandgary wrote: | | Lakesh0wtime wrote: | | kobeandgary wrote: | | Lakesh0wtime wrote: | Unless they're Lebron or magic. We really can't expect anyone to be a franchise player/superstar from the start.
I think Lonzo and Ingram have the best chance on our team, but they're still super young |
Ingram seems to have zero chance, and Ball drastically needs to improve if he hopes to be. |
How does Ingram not have a chance? |
Because he seriously lacks in talent and ball handling. Watching him dribble reminds me of Tayshaun Prince. He can be a good player, but will never be a superstar. |
LOL this guy here. If everyone judged Yannis as quick as you judged Ingram he would have been out of the league. LOL. BI is a good passer, good defender, good rebounder, gets to the basket almost every time he wants to. Knows how to finishnafter contact and over players. And now he's shooting 39% from 3 in year two. |
Giannis has a lot of size and athleticism on Ingram for one thing. Ingram would have to double his current stats to match up alongside Giannis, I just don't see it. |
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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2nd year stats both at 20 years old
Giannis 12.7 PPG 6.7 RPG 2.6 APG 1.0 BPG TS 55.2%
Brandon 16.2 PPG 5.2 RPG 3.7 APG 0.8 BPG TS 52.9%
As has been said Giannis is a little more athletic so his rebounds and blocks are a little better... and his FG% is better because he plays more like a power forward only taking close shots, while BI takes a lot of midrange shots.
However, BI scores more and passes better than Giannis at this stage and his 3pt % is up to 38%.
Don't see much difference in their progress at the 2nd year except if BI continues to improve from 3, then he will be more of a Durant type player than a Giannis. He definitely hasn't progressed as far as KD had by the time he was 20 but I think it's fair to say he's at the same level as Giannis at this age.
If he develops the three and gains strength... I think he can be close to their level... maybe eventually better than Giannis... but it will be hard to catch KD unless he learns to shoot FTs at 90% and 3s at 40%. |
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kobeandgary
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | 2nd year stats both at 20 years old
Giannis 12.7 PPG 6.7 RPG 2.6 APG 1.0 BPG TS 55.2%
Brandon 16.2 PPG 5.2 RPG 3.7 APG 0.8 BPG TS 52.9%
As has been said Giannis is a little more athletic so his rebounds and blocks are a little better... and his FG% is better because he plays more like a power forward only taking close shots, while BI takes a lot of midrange shots.
However, BI scores more and passes better than Giannis at this stage and his 3pt % is up to 38%.
Don't see much difference in their progress at the 2nd year except if BI continues to improve from 3, then he will be more of a Durant type player than a Giannis. He definitely hasn't progressed as far as KD had by the time he was 20 but I think it's fair to say he's at the same level as Giannis at this age.
If he develops the three and gains strength... I think he can be close to their level... maybe eventually better than Giannis... but it will be hard to catch KD unless he learns to shoot FTs at 90% and 3s at 40%. |
Giannis had all the tools from the get go and was only a number 15 pick. Brandon from the get go has been needing strength, size, handles and athleticism. I don't see those things coming any time soon. Giannis was freakish from day one, you just don't see those things from Ingram. He plays a lot like Prince. |
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Threatt_Level
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | 2nd year stats both at 20 years old
Giannis 12.7 PPG 6.7 RPG 2.6 APG 1.0 BPG TS 55.2%
Brandon 16.2 PPG 5.2 RPG 3.7 APG 0.8 BPG TS 52.9%
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You're missing something there: Giannis' BPM +.5, Ingram's BPM -1.8
If you want to take it further, look at how Durant and Kawhi (2 guys that Laker fans, for some reason, love to compare Ingram to) did at 20.
Durant: 57.7% TS, +1.8 BPM
Kawhi: 57.3% TS, +4.3 BPM
Even Ben Simmons is at a +3.4 BPM on 54.2% TS.
Ingram is just not on the same level as those guys, and Laker fans need to stop with the delusion. If we're lucky, Ingram will be a better offensive version of Tayshaun Prince and a good 3rd guy on a championship roster, but he's never going to be a franchise cornerstone. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Threatt_Level wrote: | | Ingram is just not on the same level as those guys, and Laker fans need to stop with the delusion. If we're lucky, Ingram will be a better offensive version of Tayshaun Prince and a good 3rd guy on a championship roster, but he's never going to be a franchise cornerstone. |
That's a little hasty, but we should be able to agree on this: Ingram needs to make a leap. Linear progression is not likely to make him a superstar. Guys with linear progression tend to top out after 3-4 years. |
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Sentient Meat
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Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| KobeandGary wrote: |
Giannis had all the tools from the get go and was only a number 15 pick. Brandon from the get go has been needing strength, size, handles and athleticism. I don't see those things coming any time soon. Giannis was freakish from day one, you just don't see those things from Ingram. He plays a lot like Prince. |
| Threatt_Level wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | 2nd year stats both at 20 years old
Giannis 12.7 PPG 6.7 RPG 2.6 APG 1.0 BPG TS 55.2%
Brandon 16.2 PPG 5.2 RPG 3.7 APG 0.8 BPG TS 52.9%
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You're missing something there: Giannis' BPM +.5, Ingram's BPM -1.8
If you want to take it further, look at how Durant and Kawhi (2 guys that Laker fans, for some reason, love to compare Ingram to) did at 20.
Durant: 57.7% TS, +1.8 BPM
Kawhi: 57.3% TS, +4.3 BPM
Even Ben Simmons is at a +3.4 BPM on 54.2% TS.
Ingram is just not on the same level as those guys, and Laker fans need to stop with the delusion. If we're lucky, Ingram will be a better offensive version of Tayshaun Prince and a good 3rd guy on a championship roster, but he's never going to be a franchise cornerstone. |
Did you guys have an NBA pass and actually watch Giannis every game to come to your conclusion? Or did you just watch his highlights on Sports Center every night? Because if you only watch Ingram on highlights... he seems a lot better than he is. Even watching Giannis last night, he didn't seem a whole lot different than Ingram... just a stronger version.
I can agree with you that BI doesn't look like LeBron as a teenager but Kobe looked average his first two years and didn't really blossom till his third. Also interesting to note is that Kobe never had an elite BPM... Westbrook's BPM is way better than Kobe, do you argue that Westbrook is the better player? Anthony Davis has a lackluster BPM... would rather have Russ over AD? BPM is a complex statistic, in that there definitely seems to be a correlation with greatness... but it is all over the place and has a lot of variables that are unrelated to the player himself.
I don't watch Giannis all the time... and I certainly didn't see him as a two year player... so maybe you two are right. If you did watch most of his games as well as Ingram's I will defer to your judgment. But I see flashes of brilliance from Ingram and they seem to becoming more frequent, not less... (which currently seems to be the problem with Kuzma.) When BI starts putting two good halves together, I think he might start changing people's minds. |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | I can agree with you that BI doesn't look like LeBron as a teenager but Kobe looked average his first two years and didn't really blossom till his third. |
Kobe never looked average...he was raw, but never average |
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deal
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | I can agree with you that BI doesn't look like LeBron as a teenager but Kobe looked average his first two years and didn't really blossom till his third. |
Kobe never looked average...he was raw, but never average |
Yeah, Kobe always looked the part. Same with LeBron, Bird, Magic...In the
case of Lonzo, I'm simply on the fence. While he has some good reflexes
passing he looks more the part of a contributor than a true star (that is
not to say that LAL fans could some day vote him into an all Star game
but I'm referring to merit only).
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The God Particle
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Joined: 01 May 2015
Posts: 2196
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | I can agree with you that BI doesn't look like LeBron as a teenager but Kobe looked average his first two years and didn't really blossom till his third. |
Kobe never looked average...he was raw, but never average |
I agree.
Kobe was already Kobe at 15 years of age. Just look at his summer league games/highlights at 17 years of age. Kobe was already Kobe.
Giannis - look at his games in his greek leagues - it was obvious then he was already who he's showing to be at 18 years of age.
I don't think BI has shown yet (and I don't think he will, as these top 5-10 have it all along, just raw) the skillset required to be a top 5-10 player. |
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The God Particle
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| deal wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | I can agree with you that BI doesn't look like LeBron as a teenager but Kobe looked average his first two years and didn't really blossom till his third. |
Kobe never looked average...he was raw, but never average |
Yeah, Kobe always looked the part. Same with LeBron, Bird, Magic...In the
case of Lonzo, I'm simply on the fence. While he has some good reflexes
passing he looks more the part of a contributor than a true star (that is
not to say that LAL fans could some day vote him into an all Star game
but I'm referring to merit only). |
A superstar's game starts and ends with what he's capable of doing on the offensive side of the floor. He has to be able to take over a game offensively, command double teams, draw defenses to you, and so on. Lonzo just isn't that type of player.....
The best thing about Lonzo is his defense, he's so far advanced on that side of the court that I think he will be perennial DPOY candidate once he grows into his body.
But still, if you can't take over a game offensively, you can never be called a superstar and you'll never win championships if you're the best of 2nd best player on your team. |
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LakerSanity
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Location: Long Beach, California
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| Threatt_Level wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | 2nd year stats both at 20 years old
Giannis 12.7 PPG 6.7 RPG 2.6 APG 1.0 BPG TS 55.2%
Brandon 16.2 PPG 5.2 RPG 3.7 APG 0.8 BPG TS 52.9%
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You're missing something there: Giannis' BPM +.5, Ingram's BPM -1.8
If you want to take it further, look at how Durant and Kawhi (2 guys that Laker fans, for some reason, love to compare Ingram to) did at 20.
Durant: 57.7% TS, +1.8 BPM
Kawhi: 57.3% TS, +4.3 BPM
Even Ben Simmons is at a +3.4 BPM on 54.2% TS.
Ingram is just not on the same level as those guys, and Laker fans need to stop with the delusion. If we're lucky, Ingram will be a better offensive version of Tayshaun Prince and a good 3rd guy on a championship roster, but he's never going to be a franchise cornerstone. |
At Age 20 (or rookie year)...
George: +0.0 BPM
Westbrook: -0.1 BPM
Klay (Age 21): -1.9 BPM
Pippen (Age 22): 0.2 BPM
Dirk: -2.9 BPM
DeRozan: -2.8 BPM
M. Conley: -3.0 BPM
K. Love: -1.0 BPM
Porzingis: 0.2 BPM (he was actually a -0.1 BPM this season at age 22 fyi)
Cousins: -1.4 BPM
K. Walker (Age 21): -1.2 BPM
Hayward: -2.8 BPM
J. Butler (Age 22): -1.3 BPM
Beal: -1.1 BPM
Wall: -0.2 BPM
I dunno, maybe we should give a 20 year old Ingram a chance before deciding he's the same kind of bum all of the above guys turned out to be?
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Threatt_Level
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Threatt_Level wrote: | | Ingram is just not on the same level as those guys, and Laker fans need to stop with the delusion. If we're lucky, Ingram will be a better offensive version of Tayshaun Prince and a good 3rd guy on a championship roster, but he's never going to be a franchise cornerstone. |
That's a little hasty, but we should be able to agree on this: Ingram needs to make a leap. Linear progression is not likely to make him a superstar. Guys with linear progression tend to top out after 3-4 years. |
That I agree with. He's going to have to take a great leap next year if he's going to become even a # 2 guy on a championship-contending squad. I don't see it happening, but I am encouraged by the progress he's made over the past couple of months. It starting to look like my early predictions of Ingram being a better Khris Middleton will, thankfully, end up being wrong. |
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Sentient Meat
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Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:20 am Post subject: |
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Ingram has gone from 9 to 16 points a game... 40 to 46% shooting... 29 to 38% 3pt shooting, almost doubled his assists.
What in your minds constitutes a leap?
Some of you remind me of those helicopter parents who send their children to bed without dinner because they got one B on a quiz. |
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Sentient Meat
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Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | I can agree with you that BI doesn't look like LeBron as a teenager but Kobe looked average his first two years and didn't really blossom till his third. |
Kobe never looked average...he was raw, but never average |
Yeah, as an athlete he never looked average. |
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PHILosophize
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Joined: 05 Nov 2012
Posts: 10758
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | Ingram has gone from 9 to 16 points a game... 40 to 46% shooting... 29 to 38% 3pt shooting, almost doubled his assists.
What in your minds constitutes a leap?
Some of you remind me of those helicopter parents who send their children to bed without dinner because they got one B on a quiz. |
That seems like a bad idea. If the kid is starving he/she probably won't do too well on their homework that night and that will just add to the poor grades.
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RI Laker
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Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 7159
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| PHILosophize wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Ingram has gone from 9 to 16 points a game... 40 to 46% shooting... 29 to 38% 3pt shooting, almost doubled his assists.
What in your minds constitutes a leap?
Some of you remind me of those helicopter parents who send their children to bed without dinner because they got one B on a quiz. |
That seems like a bad idea. If the kid is starving he/she probably won't do too well on their homework that night and that will just add to the poor grades. |
Bro,
More snow here. How about for you? |
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PHILosophize
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Joined: 05 Nov 2012
Posts: 10758
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| RI Laker wrote: | | PHILosophize wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Ingram has gone from 9 to 16 points a game... 40 to 46% shooting... 29 to 38% 3pt shooting, almost doubled his assists.
What in your minds constitutes a leap?
Some of you remind me of those helicopter parents who send their children to bed without dinner because they got one B on a quiz. |
That seems like a bad idea. If the kid is starving he/she probably won't do too well on their homework that night and that will just add to the poor grades. |
Bro,
More snow here. How about for you? |
NICE! How many inches are you at for the year? Still only 7 so far here which is far below average 
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