Joined: 15 Jul 2002 Posts: 6937 Location: searching for the mojo of Dr. Buss
Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:19 pm Post subject:
Steve007 wrote:
silkwilkes wrote:
slavavov wrote:
If we kept Shaq and Kobe I don't think we would've won any more titles because we would've needed to get a 3rd star to make up for the fact that Shaq was not dominant anymore, and we had no cap space or assets to get a player like that. Also as mentioned earlier in this thread we already had almost no role players anymore as it was in 2003-04.
You must be joking.
Shaq was fading quickly around that time and wasn’t going to work hard enough to remain the dominant player that he was. A Shaq with the Lakers in 2005 and 2006 would have been vastly inferior to the version we saw in 2003. And getting out of the West would mean getting past the Spurs, Suns and Mavs. They were done. They picked up Malone and Payton to make one last run at it after the Spurs clearly became the top team in the West in 2003.
Shaq after the Lakers without Kobe was like Pippen after the Bulls without MJ. He could still help a team a lot, but was not the same player, was older and was affected by injuries.
He had 2 elite years after the trade and won another NBA title. We would have won another had he stayed for sure.
But Kobe didn't want to play with him anymore and Dr Buss decided to spend the money on the younger of the two... wisely so. It was both of Kobe and Shaq's doing... but I still blame Kobe for not sticking out another 2 years. The following years were wasted for him anyhow until Gasol came in the picture. _________________ "He may say it's not you, it's him.... but it's really you."
If we kept Shaq and Kobe I don't think we would've won any more titles because we would've needed to get a 3rd star to make up for the fact that Shaq was not dominant anymore, and we had no cap space or assets to get a player like that. Also as mentioned earlier in this thread we already had almost no role players anymore as it was in 2003-04.
You must be joking.
Shaq was fading quickly around that time and wasn’t going to work hard enough to remain the dominant player that he was. A Shaq with the Lakers in 2005 and 2006 would have been vastly inferior to the version we saw in 2003. And getting out of the West would mean getting past the Spurs, Suns and Mavs. They were done. They picked up Malone and Payton to make one last run at it after the Spurs clearly became the top team in the West in 2003.
Shaq after the Lakers without Kobe was like Pippen after the Bulls without MJ. He could still help a team a lot, but was not the same player, was older and was affected by injuries.
He had 2 elite years after the trade and won another NBA title. We would have won another had he stayed for sure.
But Kobe didn't want to play with him anymore and Dr Buss decided to spend the money on the younger of the two... wisely so. It was both of Kobe and Shaq's doing... but I still blame Kobe for not sticking out another 2 years. The following years were wasted for him anyhow until Gasol came in the picture.
That’s because he worked harder and felt he had something to prove after he left. That was not the Shaq we would have seen in LA; we would have seen an inferior version of that. After Shaq won in Miami he got lazy again and didn’t win again. This is why Shaq was so frustrating. A more motivated Shaq could have won another ring in LA.
He also had other things going for him in Miami. Pat Riley was coaching him, he was playing in a pathetic conference, and the refs suddenly decided that breathing on Dwayne Wade wasn’t allowed when Dallas was crushing Miami in the finals.
Beating the Spurs would have been tougher than getting out of the East.
Now if Shaq was younger then I’d agree with you. I just think he was fading quickly and he couldn’t get away with being lazy. If you think he would have still played at a dominant level then I can see why you think they win again in LA.
Joined: 13 Apr 2001 Posts: 5470 Location: A room with a view!
Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:48 pm Post subject:
lakersken80 wrote:
The 2004 team was old....Outside of Shaq and Kobe, they didn't have much for the Pistons. The Pistons knew how to defend us which was letting Shaq get his and then clamp down on Kobe. Which is why it was shockingly bad at how fast it got away from us and why it ended in 5.
With a healthy Malone, the Lakers whip the Pistons. The Lakers lost because of Kobe. He was still fighting with Shaq during that series. He played Kobe-ball and it cost them. Kobe in the interview admitted that it was his fault. Kobe ball-hogged and tried to do everything himself and against the Pistons, that didn't work. Billups baited Kobe and he took the bait. Billups got Kobe to quit playing team ball and make it a one-on-one battle with him-taking Kobe's teammates out of the game. It worked to perfection. _________________ Let them HATE so long as they FEAR!
Notice how they both agree that they should have won that series EASILY. That’s why I thought it seemed like they still didn’t think much of the Pistons.
I wonder how an older Kobe does in that series. In that interview it looks like Kobe really believed it was winnable if he had done a better job. Would an older Kobe with his extra knowledge and experience win it all in 2004? Notice how he never said “Detroit was the better team” or “injuries gave us no shot.” He really thinks he let one get away that year.
he wasnt talking about himself playing better.
he was talking about himself as being a better teammate and guard leader for GP and the new guys period.
He made it clear that was the issue. they could not run their automatics properly because gp and the guys were not up to speed. it takes a long time to learn the triangle well enough to defeat a defense coach like detroit had. usually like a season. they didnt have a season to learn it. kobe's job since he knew it inside out was to get those guys ready. he felt he didnt do a good enough job doing that.
The 2004 team was old....Outside of Shaq and Kobe, they didn't have much for the Pistons. The Pistons knew how to defend us which was letting Shaq get his and then clamp down on Kobe. Which is why it was shockingly bad at how fast it got away from us and why it ended in 5.
With a healthy Malone, the Lakers whip the Pistons. The Lakers lost because of Kobe. He was still fighting with Shaq during that series. He played Kobe-ball and it cost them. Kobe in the interview admitted that it was his fault. Kobe ball-hogged and tried to do everything himself and against the Pistons, that didn't work. Billups baited Kobe and he took the bait. Billups got Kobe to quit playing team ball and make it a one-on-one battle with him-taking Kobe's teammates out of the game. It worked to perfection.
kobe never admitted to ball hogging during that series. he admitted to not training up hte new guys. there's a difference. kobe did what he did because he thought he had to since the new guys were either hurt(malone) or not all their because they didnt know the triangle well enough(gp).
Notice how they both agree that they should have won that series EASILY. That’s why I thought it seemed like they still didn’t think much of the Pistons.
I wonder how an older Kobe does in that series. In that interview it looks like Kobe really believed it was winnable if he had done a better job. Would an older Kobe with his extra knowledge and experience win it all in 2004? Notice how he never said “Detroit was the better team” or “injuries gave us no shot.” He really thinks he let one get away that year.
he wasnt talking about himself playing better.
he was talking about himself as being a better teammate and guard leader for GP and the new guys period.
He made it clear that was the issue. they could not run their automatics properly because gp and the guys were not up to speed. it takes a long time to learn the triangle well enough to defeat a defense coach like detroit had. usually like a season. they didnt have a season to learn it. kobe's job since he knew it inside out was to get those guys ready. he felt he didnt do a good enough job doing that.
Isn’t that something that an older, more experienced Kobe could do better? Kobe didn’t become the undisputed leader of the team until a year later. A Kobe in 2009 or 2010 was used to being the clear #1 guy on the team which also gave him more experience as a leader and a teacher.
You’re complete right btw. I watched the video too and he said exactly what you said. I wasn’t suggesting that he said he simply had to play better.
Kobe has his part of blame,and Malone physical issues did matter a lot,but i want to add that Payton was beyond pathetic in those Finals,he really did suck big time,and apparently didn't even care
Joined: 13 Apr 2001 Posts: 11882 Location: Looking outta the window, watching the asphalt grow ...
Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:43 am Post subject:
mixtim wrote:
Kobe has his part of blame,and Malone physical issues did matter a lot,but i want to add that Payton was beyond pathetic in those Finals,he really did suck big time,and apparently didn't even care
The officials seemed pretty hellbent on getting GP in foul trouble early and often in that series. I think I remember someone mentioning that Chauncy made as many FT's as he did FG's. _________________ We back.
I remember after the 2003 loss to the Spurs and seeing how out of shape Shaq was and thinking it is time to trade him.
Does anyone think at that time in 2003 that if Mitch offers Shaq to Detroit for Ben W, T Prince, Chauncy and a couple of 1st rounders that the Pistons DON'T do it???
Remember Detroit just got swept by the Nets in the Playoffs.
Joined: 23 Jul 2004 Posts: 12898 Location: Los Angeles
Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:48 am Post subject:
Islandboy wrote:
I remember after the 2003 loss to the Spurs and seeing how out of shape Shaq was and thinking it is time to trade him.
Does anyone think at that time in 2003 that if Mitch offers Shaq to Detroit for Ben W, T Prince, Chauncy and a couple of 1st rounders that the Pistons DON'T do it???
Remember Detroit just got swept by the Nets in the Playoffs.
We held onto Shaq for 2 seasons too long.
Kobe wanted that 4-peat BAD. Unfortunately, Shaq and Phil were too busy being haters to want it as bad as he did. There were points during that 2003 season where they were both clearly sabotaging him (i.e. the first 12 company time games and Shaq coming up 'hurt' in the middle of the 40 streak). He had decided then that he would put himself on the market the following year. _________________ So glad we gave you your flowers while you were here, Kobe.
Joined: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 33474 Location: Long Beach, California
Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:57 am Post subject:
I found the interview to be entertaining and insightful, but still filled with a fair amount of B.S. and holding of tongues. _________________ LakersGround's Terms of Service
Reasons we lost the 2004 Finals (roughly in order of impact, IMHO):
1) Malone's Injury: 18-3 to start the season and absolutely rolling until Malone got injured in December. He wasn't the best player on the team but one could argue he was the most important glue guy. He fit the triangle like a glove with his passing, and his defense would've been key on Rasheed in the finals like it was in the series against Duncan and KG.
2) Kobe Sexual Assault Trial: Most people bring up the mental distraction of the sexual assault trial but Kobe actually thrived and played at his best during days he had to go to court. He showed up to training camp as skinny as his rookie year and not in optimal basketball shape. He worked his way back into shape (stamina-wise) but obviously it's not the same as him having one of his usual Mamba offseason workout regimes. It finally caught up to him in the Finals. If we have 2003 Kobe or 2005 Kobe it's a different series.
3) Shaq being out of shape: By his own admission Shaq stopped caring about working out and staying in shape in the offseason after his first ring. Every year it got progressively worse and the knick-knack injuries started piling up, culminating in 2004. Yes, he put up good stats against Ben Wallace but naked-eyeball we all knew he wasn't the same Shaq anymore.
4) Phil's stubbornness: During that 18-3 start the Lakers did a lot more running and fast-breaking than they ever did under Phil. But eventually Phil put the reigns on the team (even though Payton struggled with the triangle) and they were never able to recapture that early-season groove. With the additions of Payton and Malone he should've been more flexible with the triangle to take advantage of their skill sets.
5) The Pistons are an all-time great team: Despite the media-driven narrative that it's one of the biggest upsets in NBA Finals History, Pistons are arguably the GREATEST defensive team of all time , with the qualifier of 'post-Rasheed trade', where they put up the best regular season DRTG in NBA history at 90.9. Held opponents to 41% FG, 30% 3P, 84 PPG, 17 games holding opponents under 70 points (NBA Record 5 straight games). They're also a 4 All-Star lineup (Rasheed, Big Ben, Billups, Rip), two of which could potentially end up HOFs (Ben & Billups). And Sheed is an anomaly who could arguably be considered HOF talent in his prime. They also had one of the best defensive wings of the era in T. Prince and a HOF coach (only coach in history to win NCAA and NBA titles). The very next Finals Pistons took a legendary Spurs team with the Big 3 in their prime to 7, and were a bounce of the ball and some Robert Horry heroics away from repeating.
Re: 2004. Kobe spoke of how the triangle had counters to everything. And he didn’t teach Payton and “the young guys” (assuming K Rush?) what the counters were to the ball pressure Rip Prince and Billups put on their advancement of the ball. Malone was the reason they came back vs Spurs in round 2. He made Duncan’s life miserable. And he re-injured himself in game 5 vs the T wolves.
Also one of Phil’s books talks about how much they could’ve used Horace Grant in the finals as Karl was basically immobile. Their backup bigs were Slava and B cook.
Notice how they both agree that they should have won that series EASILY. That’s why I thought it seemed like they still didn’t think much of the Pistons.
I wonder how an older Kobe does in that series. In that interview it looks like Kobe really believed it was winnable if he had done a better job. Would an older Kobe with his extra knowledge and experience win it all in 2004? Notice how he never said “Detroit was the better team” or “injuries gave us no shot.” He really thinks he let one get away that year.
he wasnt talking about himself playing better.
he was talking about himself as being a better teammate and guard leader for GP and the new guys period.
He made it clear that was the issue. they could not run their automatics properly because gp and the guys were not up to speed. it takes a long time to learn the triangle well enough to defeat a defense coach like detroit had. usually like a season. they didnt have a season to learn it. kobe's job since he knew it inside out was to get those guys ready. he felt he didnt do a good enough job doing that.
Re: 2004. Kobe spoke of how the triangle had counters to everything. And he didn’t teach Payton and “the young guys” (assuming K Rush?) what the counters were to the ball pressure Rip Prince and Billups put on their advancement of the ball. Malone was the reason they came back vs Spurs in round 2. He made Duncan’s life miserable. And he re-injured himself in game 5 vs the T wolves.
Also one of Phil’s books talks about how much they could’ve used Horace Grant in the finals as Karl was basically immobile. Their backup bigs were Slava and B cook.
We should've re-signed Horry. He would have helped big time vs DET when Malone went down. Slava on Rasheed Wallace
Re: 2004. Kobe spoke of how the triangle had counters to everything. And he didn’t teach Payton and “the young guys” (assuming K Rush?) what the counters were to the ball pressure Rip Prince and Billups put on their advancement of the ball. Malone was the reason they came back vs Spurs in round 2. He made Duncan’s life miserable. And he re-injured himself in game 5 vs the T wolves.
Also one of Phil’s books talks about how much they could’ve used Horace Grant in the finals as Karl was basically immobile. Their backup bigs were Slava and B cook.
We should've re-signed Horry. He would have helped big time vs DET when Malone went down. Slava on Rasheed Wallace
We definitely needed the depth but I'm not sure how much Horry would've helped with no Malone. Horry's knees where shredded after bulking up to play PF and years of having to play post defense on Duncan, Rasheed, Webber, KG in the playoffs. Remember just the season prior he struggled heavily from three and missed the game-winner that would've swung the Spurs series. He found success again with the Spurs in 2005 but at that point he barely played and they literally just saved him for the Finals clutch moments.
I remember after the 2003 loss to the Spurs and seeing how out of shape Shaq was and thinking it is time to trade him.
Does anyone think at that time in 2003 that if Mitch offers Shaq to Detroit for Ben W, T Prince, Chauncy and a couple of 1st rounders that the Pistons DON'T do it???
Remember Detroit just got swept by the Nets in the Playoffs.
We held onto Shaq for 2 seasons too long.
I would do that trade in a heartbeat but too bad Shaq would never accept that trade. He wanted to go to warm weather cities.
It's funny how little Shaq & Kobe talked about or credited Phil, it was barely for a minute and than just moved on like he was Ty Lue. It was edited so the special could be an hour, but overtime Phil's name has really taken a hit as a coach. Today's players see Popovich as the best coach they've ever seen. His Knicks stint really left a bad taste in everyone's mouth, along with his beef with LeBron and his insistence on the triangle. He wanted to trade Porzingis, almost traded him to the Celtics this past summer, and wanted to trade Kobe for Jason Kidd & Shawn Marion. Phil got Shaq & Kobe over the hump as champs, as they both had their best years with Phil.
Joined: 24 Sep 2001 Posts: 8188 Location: Eagle Rock
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:19 am Post subject:
Mike@LG wrote:
slavavov wrote:
If we kept Shaq and Kobe I don't think we would've won any more titles because we would've needed to get a 3rd star to make up for the fact that Shaq was not dominant anymore, and we had no cap space or assets to get a player like that. Also as mentioned earlier in this thread we already had almost no role players anymore as it was in 2003-04.
Agreed. Had multiple chances in the draft to build depth and help regulate Shaq and Bryant's minutes as well. Didn't happen.
All of the wasted draft picks on bums like Madsen, Cook, Rush ect.
The Spurs did not throw away their late first rounders and that is why they were able to remain a 50- 60 win team for so long. _________________ R.I.P. Doc Buss
I found the interview to be entertaining and insightful, but still filled with a fair amount of B.S. and holding of tongues.
Yup. Plenty of grab assing
Shaq earned some major props for taking ownership when we all know it was issues on both sides. Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall Kobe admitting any fault.
I found the interview to be entertaining and insightful, but still filled with a fair amount of B.S. and holding of tongues.
Yup. Plenty of grab assing
Shaq earned some major props for taking ownership when we all know it was issues on both sides. Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall Kobe admitting any fault.
Kobe admitted fault for the 2004 Finals loss to the Pistons.
Anything else Kobe could apologize for would involve bringing up the sexual assault case and snitching on Shaq, which is NOT gonna' happen.
(Which, btw, Kobe already apologized for here: )
Dude's already had his name dragged through the mud enough in his career (by Shaq, Phil, the media), and it took him long enough to rebuild his image. And Shaq was NEVER blamed for ANYTHING back then.
Not to mention that Shaq bullied Kobe since Day 1 and Kobe just took the abuse for years until he finally clapped back in 2004.
Shaq:
- Bullied Kobe since day one by calling him "Showboat Bryant" (and not in a complementary way...) and turned the team against him
- Showed up to camp out of shape after the first ring and never cared enough to take care of his body (by his own admission)
- (bleep) about Kobe getting more opportunities and refused to rebound/play defense ("token big man stuff", as he would call it) until the reigns were handed back to him.
- Disrespected Dr. Buss by telling him "PAY ME MOTHERFU****!!" (again, by his own admission. Which is what got him traded, on top his lack of commitment)
- Instigated the 2004 beef when he made the "the full team is here" comment while Kobe was dealing with the rape charges
Kobe:
- Ball-hogged in the 2004 Finals
- Snitched on Shaq's extra-marital affairs (in a private police interview which they later leaked to cause him harm)
So you tell me who owed who the biggest apology....
I think it's hilarious how some of you act like you're OWED Shaq and Kobe talking about things they might not want to talk about. I guess the 4 Finals, 3 championships, and lifetime of memories they provided (which they've now provided some amazing closure for) isn't enough for some of ya'll...
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