Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Posts: 12161 Location: Bay Area
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:35 pm Post subject:
JUST-MING wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
So much exaggeration and hyperbole when it comes to Wilt. I don't trust any of the athletic feat #s associate with Wilt unless it was an official time at a sanctioned event. No anecdotes.
I'd still take Shaq over Wilt for most dominant player through eras.
50 PPG and over 25 RPG averages for a whole season in the officially sanctioned NBA enough for you? Did Snaq ever average over 14 rpg? Did he ever average over 30 PPG? Wilt would destroy him.
Shaq would put up 70 and 50 in that era
I don’t think Shaq could make a play like that. Wilt was so physically gifted.
So much exaggeration and hyperbole when it comes to Wilt. I don't trust any of the athletic feat #s associate with Wilt unless it was an official time at a sanctioned event. No anecdotes.
I'd still take Shaq over Wilt for most dominant player through eras.
50 PPG and over 25 RPG averages for a whole season in the officially sanctioned NBA enough for you? Did Snaq ever average over 14 rpg? Did he ever average over 30 PPG? Wilt would destroy him.
Shaq would put up 70 and 50 in that era
I don’t think Shaq could make a play like that. Wilt was so physically gifted.
Stops a 2 on 1 break by 2 big athletic forwards - Chet Walker was the best 1 on 1 player of that era he had the best 1 on 1 moves and if HE decides to pass up a shot on Wilt you know he's already determined that Wilt has just shut the basket down completely. He probably figured he'd pull Wilt into him so Wilt would be out of position against Bob Love. But Wilt had good double-jump ability and those long arms meant he was right back in position to defend either side of the basket. Plus he'd elbowed Bob Love right in the gut earlier that game and Love was probably shaken up to get too close to Wilt a-la that effect Shaq had on players - that little bit of contact that can make you think twice about getting near him.
Best play they could have done on that break was a pull up jump shot like Havlicek used to do. But Havlicek practiced that shot religiously, I'm not sure Love and Walker even really had that option. On the Lakers Wilt was a part-time offensive player but a full time intimidator on defense. He blocked like 4 shots that game but altered countless more.
Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Posts: 12161 Location: Bay Area
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:52 pm Post subject:
dantheman9758 wrote:
Cutheon wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
So much exaggeration and hyperbole when it comes to Wilt. I don't trust any of the athletic feat #s associate with Wilt unless it was an official time at a sanctioned event. No anecdotes.
I'd still take Shaq over Wilt for most dominant player through eras.
50 PPG and over 25 RPG averages for a whole season in the officially sanctioned NBA enough for you? Did Snaq ever average over 14 rpg? Did he ever average over 30 PPG? Wilt would destroy him.
Shaq would put up 70 and 50 in that era
I don’t think Shaq could make a play like that. Wilt was so physically gifted.
Stops a 2 on 1 break by 2 big athletic forwards - Chet Walker was the best 1 on 1 player of that era he had the best 1 on 1 moves and if HE decides to pass up a shot on Wilt you know he's already determined that Wilt has just shut the basket down completely. He probably figured he'd pull Wilt into him so Wilt would be out of position against Bob Love. But Wilt had good double-jump ability and those long arms meant he was right back in position to defend either side of the basket. Plus he'd elbowed Bob Love right in the gut earlier that game and Love was probably shaken up to get too close to Wilt a-la that effect Shaq had on players - that little bit of contact that can make you think twice about getting near him.
Best play they could have done on that break was a pull up jump shot like Havlicek used to do. But Havlicek practiced that shot religiously, I'm not sure Love and Walker even really had that option. On the Lakers Wilt was a part-time offensive player but a full time intimidator on defense. He blocked like 4 shots that game but altered countless more.
You've probably already seen these articles, but I think you'd appreciate this post discussing NCAA rule changes in anticipation of Wilt. Yes, people, you read that right - the NCAA changed the rules of the varsity game, not because Wilt had dominated the varsity game, but because he was so good at the freshman level that they had to change the rules to prepare against his sure-fire excellence. articles here
So much exaggeration and hyperbole when it comes to Wilt. I don't trust any of the athletic feat #s associate with Wilt unless it was an official time at a sanctioned event. No anecdotes.
I'd still take Shaq over Wilt for most dominant player through eras.
50 PPG and over 25 RPG averages for a whole season in the officially sanctioned NBA enough for you? Did Snaq ever average over 14 rpg? Did he ever average over 30 PPG? Wilt would destroy him.
Shaq would put up 70 and 50 in that era
I don’t think Shaq could make a play like that. Wilt was so physically gifted.
Shaq's prime highlights are against the GOAT lineup of centers including Hakeem, Mourning, Robinson, Ewing, etc. Not vs milkmen and meat butchers who play NBA ball part time like Wilt
Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Posts: 12161 Location: Bay Area
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:03 pm Post subject:
The Juggernaut wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
So much exaggeration and hyperbole when it comes to Wilt. I don't trust any of the athletic feat #s associate with Wilt unless it was an official time at a sanctioned event. No anecdotes.
I'd still take Shaq over Wilt for most dominant player through eras.
50 PPG and over 25 RPG averages for a whole season in the officially sanctioned NBA enough for you? Did Snaq ever average over 14 rpg? Did he ever average over 30 PPG? Wilt would destroy him.
Shaq would put up 70 and 50 in that era
I don’t think Shaq could make a play like that. Wilt was so physically gifted.
Shaq's prime highlights are against the GOAT lineup of centers including Hakeem, Mourning, Robinson, Ewing, etc. Not vs milkmen and meat butchers who play NBA ball part time like Wilt
So are Wilt's, unless you think Reed, Russel, Thurmond, Unseld, Hayes, Bellamy, and Pettit were all trash. You also chose to highlight the only time in Shaq's career that he was in Wilt's shape; Wilt was literally that fit his entire career, allowing him to make jaw-dropping plays constantly. Also, FWIW, all those centers I listed were physical specimens in their own right. All talented, tall, strong men playing against "milkmen and meat butchers." None of them ever came close to the production of Wilt.
Let's just take 1965 - split the 60's right down the middle.
9 team league - all the bigs save for the Lakers trio played heavy minutes back then (36+) and these were the starters:
Sixers: Wilt Chamberlain - goat candidate (for his dominance)
Celtics: Bill Russell - goat candidate (for his winning)
Warriors: Nate Thurmond - 50 greatest
Knicks: Willis Reed - 50 greatest
Bullets: Walt Bellamy - HOFer
Hawks: Zelmo Beaty - HOFer
Royals: Wayne Embry 4x NBA All-Star
Pistons: Reggie Harding - as good as Walt Bellamy but off-court problems killed his career prematurely
Lakers: Trio of 6-10 guys one of which, Imhoff, was a 1x All-Star, others Gene Wiley and LeRoy Ellis all shared minutes equally.
That's all teams accounted for. STACKED deck. In a small league, there is no off night. And teams were built around centers back then save for Royals and Lakers (which cost them early on) precisely because of Wilt and Russell. You couldn't compete if you didn't have someone to try to grab rebounds, defend, or help box out against those guys.
Last edited by dantheman9758 on Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
So much exaggeration and hyperbole when it comes to Wilt. I don't trust any of the athletic feat #s associate with Wilt unless it was an official time at a sanctioned event. No anecdotes.
I'd still take Shaq over Wilt for most dominant player through eras.
50 PPG and over 25 RPG averages for a whole season in the officially sanctioned NBA enough for you? Did Snaq ever average over 14 rpg? Did he ever average over 30 PPG? Wilt would destroy him.
Shaq would put up 70 and 50 in that era
I don’t think Shaq could make a play like that. Wilt was so physically gifted.
Stops a 2 on 1 break by 2 big athletic forwards - Chet Walker was the best 1 on 1 player of that era he had the best 1 on 1 moves and if HE decides to pass up a shot on Wilt you know he's already determined that Wilt has just shut the basket down completely. He probably figured he'd pull Wilt into him so Wilt would be out of position against Bob Love. But Wilt had good double-jump ability and those long arms meant he was right back in position to defend either side of the basket. Plus he'd elbowed Bob Love right in the gut earlier that game and Love was probably shaken up to get too close to Wilt a-la that effect Shaq had on players - that little bit of contact that can make you think twice about getting near him.
Best play they could have done on that break was a pull up jump shot like Havlicek used to do. But Havlicek practiced that shot religiously, I'm not sure Love and Walker even really had that option. On the Lakers Wilt was a part-time offensive player but a full time intimidator on defense. He blocked like 4 shots that game but altered countless more.
You've probably already seen these articles, but I think you'd appreciate this post discussing NCAA rule changes in anticipation of Wilt. Yes, people, you read that right - the NCAA changed the rules of the varsity game, not because Wilt had dominated the varsity game, but because he was so good at the freshman level that they had to change the rules to prepare against his sure-fire excellence. articles here
haha - that's actually a post of mine from years ago - I used to share research on that board
Found even more info on that dunking free throws thing to - I pinpointed the exact date the NBA caught wind of Wilt dunking free throws and then THEY enacted the exact same rules the NCAA did in a similar manner - in preparation for Wilt.
Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Posts: 12161 Location: Bay Area
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:42 pm Post subject:
^Wow, what are the odds. Now, that poster's handle is CavaliersFTW...mind explaining yourself, dantheman? Did he just crib a prior post of yours?
EDIT: Also, love how in the most recent article you supplied, the side bar is about Russel knocking out Jim Krebs with one punch. Dude would be out of the league if he did that now. Could you imagine?
Last edited by Cutheon on Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144462 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:44 pm Post subject:
The Juggernaut wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
So much exaggeration and hyperbole when it comes to Wilt. I don't trust any of the athletic feat #s associate with Wilt unless it was an official time at a sanctioned event. No anecdotes.
I'd still take Shaq over Wilt for most dominant player through eras.
50 PPG and over 25 RPG averages for a whole season in the officially sanctioned NBA enough for you? Did Snaq ever average over 14 rpg? Did he ever average over 30 PPG? Wilt would destroy him.
Shaq would put up 70 and 50 in that era
I don’t think Shaq could make a play like that. Wilt was so physically gifted.
Shaq's prime highlights are against the GOAT lineup of centers including Hakeem, Mourning, Robinson, Ewing, etc. Not vs milkmen and meat butchers who play NBA ball part time like Wilt
That wasn’t the GOAT era for centers, that would be the 70’s. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
^Wow, what are the odds. Now, that poster's handle is CavaliersFTW...mind explaining yourself, dantheman? Did he just crib a prior post of yours?
EDIT: Also, love how in the most recent article you supplied, the side bar is about Russel knocking out Jim Krebs with one punch. Dude would be out of the league if he did that now. Could you imagine?
Born and raised in northeast Ohio. Thus the Cavs handle that I use sometimes lol
I'm basketball fan above being any team fan though - and my two favorite players of all time are Wilt and Baylor. I run the Chamberlain Archive youtube channel from the video in the OP. To be honest the only "team gear" I've ever bought of any NBA team is two shirts which are vintage Lakers shirts just because I figure if I ever went out West on a trip I'd try to see a Laker game and maybe try to get in touch with the Baylor's who I have a correspondence with.
Have you ever read the book Tall Tales? It's about the early years of the NBA. All sorts of unbelievable stories that would never fly in today's era lol. One off the top of my head: Clyde Lovellette, HOF center from the 50's to early 60's - always carried a duffle bag of guns (six shooters) because he loved cowboy stuff. One night he went to the refs hotel room, knocked on the door, when the ref answered Clyde pulled both pistols on the ref and shot him in the gut. The ref grabbed his gut in horror but was fine - Lovellette shot blanks at him. Then he ran off and the whole league heard about it the next few weeks and everyone thought it was a hilarious "prank" (no punishment of course - it was viewed by all as a funny prank!).
Then there's stories of "stranglers" at arenas. Guys that would come out of the stands and try to strangle the coaches, team owners, etc. Like, unbelievable stuff lol
So much exaggeration and hyperbole when it comes to Wilt. I don't trust any of the athletic feat #s associate with Wilt unless it was an official time at a sanctioned event. No anecdotes.
I'd still take Shaq over Wilt for most dominant player through eras.
50 PPG and over 25 RPG averages for a whole season in the officially sanctioned NBA enough for you? Did Snaq ever average over 14 rpg? Did he ever average over 30 PPG? Wilt would destroy him.
Shaq would put up 70 and 50 in that era
I don’t think Shaq could make a play like that. Wilt was so physically gifted.
Shaq's prime highlights are against the GOAT lineup of centers including Hakeem, Mourning, Robinson, Ewing, etc. Not vs milkmen and meat butchers who play NBA ball part time like Wilt
That wasn’t the GOAT era for centers, that would be the 70’s.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:14 pm Post subject:
The Juggernaut wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
So much exaggeration and hyperbole when it comes to Wilt. I don't trust any of the athletic feat #s associate with Wilt unless it was an official time at a sanctioned event. No anecdotes.
I'd still take Shaq over Wilt for most dominant player through eras.
50 PPG and over 25 RPG averages for a whole season in the officially sanctioned NBA enough for you? Did Snaq ever average over 14 rpg? Did he ever average over 30 PPG? Wilt would destroy him.
Shaq would put up 70 and 50 in that era
I don’t think Shaq could make a play like that. Wilt was so physically gifted.
Shaq's prime highlights are against the GOAT lineup of centers including Hakeem, Mourning, Robinson, Ewing, etc. Not vs milkmen and meat butchers who play NBA ball part time like Wilt
That wasn’t the GOAT era for centers, that would be the 70’s.
Incorrect as usual.
Nope.
Couldn't even win a championship without a HOF center in the 70s. Mourning took Charlotte only so far. Ewing, ECF. Robinson? Nowhere without Duncan. Olajuwon had all the moves. Robinson moved like a SF. But the 70s had HOF centers that won rings.
His FT% was bad. So I guess he can't shoot from outside despite them making it seem like he had easy 3P range in the vid. _________________ Showtime 2.0
I'm pretty confident the big dipper puts up something like 36/15/8 with 7 blocks, 4 steals and a family-size bucket of KFC in todays league.
Only subtracting 10-14ppg from his prime averages, with the differences of athletes..I don't buy that. I guess an athletic comp for Wilt is like a 7'1 Anthony Davis..I could buy he'd avg 30 and be the best big in the game(with his passing skills as well)... but 35ppg has been done twice in the modern era (90s and beyond)... idk. (80s was not the modern era either, and those player's numbers have to be calibrated as well)
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:56 pm Post subject:
Anyone have a theory why Wilt's scoring average dropped off so significantly in the playoffs, unlike pretty much any other all-time great (Kareem, Magic, Bird, MJ, Kobe, etc.)? _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
I'm pretty confident the big dipper puts up something like 36/15/8 with 7 blocks, 4 steals and a family-size bucket of KFC in todays league.
Only subtracting 10-14ppg from his prime averages, with the differences of athletes..I don't buy that. I guess an athletic comp for Wilt is like a 7'1 Anthony Davis..I could buy he'd avg 30 and be the best big in the game(with his passing skills as well)... but 35ppg has been done twice in the modern era (90s and beyond)... idk. (80s was not the modern era either, and those player's numbers have to be calibrated as well)
Food for thought, if you subtract Wilt from NBA history - the number of times any other player has ever averaged 35ppg is random, and shows no favortism towards even his own era that he played in. Statistically he appears to be a genuine outlier.
I'd also disagree that he's a bigger version of any player today athletically or otherwise. Anthony Davis is not a good example because Anthony Davis is not unusually strong. Davis also doesn't have big hands. No matter who you try to take in today's game and adjust them to be Wilt, they're missing multiple traits Wilt had that were key to his success no matter who it is.
Anyone have a theory why Wilt's scoring average dropped off so significantly in the playoffs, unlike pretty much any other all-time great (Kareem, Magic, Bird, MJ, Kobe, etc.)?
Just from newspaper anecdotes - he focused more on defense come playoff time at least some of the times he was putting up big numbers in reg season. Such as 1962, we look and see he averaged 50 that season (40 against Celtics). Come playoff time he's only averaging like 34ppg vs the Celtics or something along those lines. Looking at newspapers they cited he was upping his effort (contrary to the stats) and playing outstanding defense. Cousy praised his "all around game" that series for example. That's at least for that series, for other series I don't know exactly as I've not looked into all of them.
Last edited by dantheman9758 on Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
I'm pretty confident the big dipper puts up something like 36/15/8 with 7 blocks, 4 steals and a family-size bucket of KFC in todays league.
Only subtracting 10-14ppg from his prime averages, with the differences of athletes..I don't buy that. I guess an athletic comp for Wilt is like a 7'1 Anthony Davis..I could buy he'd avg 30 and be the best big in the game(with his passing skills as well)... but 35ppg has been done twice in the modern era (90s and beyond)... idk. (80s was not the modern era either, and those player's numbers have to be calibrated as well)
Food for thought, if you subtract Wilt from NBA history - the number of times any other player has ever averaged 35ppg is random, and shows no favortism towards even his own era that he played in. Statistically he appears to be a genuine outlier.
I'd also disagree that he's a bigger version of any player today athletically or otherwise. Anthony Davis is not a good example because Anthony Davis is not unusually strong. Davis also doesn't have big hands. No matter who you try to take in today's game and adjust them to be Wilt, they're missing multiple traits Wilt had that were key to his success no matter who it is.
Yea the hands and Wilt being faster..important things. But Wilt would also have to be taught a lotttttttttt of skill stuff. Even if he had decent moves for the 50s, those moves evolved with each decade. Wilt shot some layups with his back to the basket, just ridiculous things he was afforded due to size vs comp.
I'm pretty confident the big dipper puts up something like 36/15/8 with 7 blocks, 4 steals and a family-size bucket of KFC in todays league.
Only subtracting 10-14ppg from his prime averages, with the differences of athletes..I don't buy that. I guess an athletic comp for Wilt is like a 7'1 Anthony Davis..I could buy he'd avg 30 and be the best big in the game(with his passing skills as well)... but 35ppg has been done twice in the modern era (90s and beyond)... idk. (80s was not the modern era either, and those player's numbers have to be calibrated as well)
Food for thought, if you subtract Wilt from NBA history - the number of times any other player has ever averaged 35ppg is random, and shows no favortism towards even his own era that he played in. Statistically he appears to be a genuine outlier.
I'd also disagree that he's a bigger version of any player today athletically or otherwise. Anthony Davis is not a good example because Anthony Davis is not unusually strong. Davis also doesn't have big hands. No matter who you try to take in today's game and adjust them to be Wilt, they're missing multiple traits Wilt had that were key to his success no matter who it is.
Yea the hands and Wilt being faster..important things. But Wilt would also have to be taught a lotttttttttt of skill stuff. Even if he had decent moves for the 50s, those moves evolved with each decade. Wilt shot some layups with his back to the basket, just ridiculous things he was afforded due to size vs comp.
His back hand layup is a move Kareem, McHale, and others used - it's not some archaic 50's move due to short competition it was and still is a legitimate way to shoot if you've got the body-type for it.
This is Wilt's post-up skill from the right block - this is his "weak" side, this is the side he shoots back hand finger rolls from:
He's not using dated moves those moves didn't exist prior to him - he's really big and strong and is able to get deep and open - as with Shaq naturally he can establish post position as deep as he likes. He can't bump and back down due to charging rules of his era but his repertoire to go low or high is simple and effective - he was doing this even against Jabbar if it didn't work he wouldn't have been able to do it against young Jabbar, who is as big as Porzingis and was a supreme athlete in his own right in the early 70's - even quicker than Wilt at that time given Wilt's age. A finger roll is simply his release method of choice if he's too far away to dunk it when attacking inside.
Ok good stuff. The more I watch the more I feel I'm underestimating him. That specific play you linked had an athletic defender , I believe in the 70s. Maybe Wilt's hands and wingspan could have revitalized the post game today, even a better fit than Shaq's brute force because more players flop today, everyone's Vlade..
I guess Wilt could have been 35ppg with modern training. Would have been super fun to watch. I'm naturally opposed to older older generations of hoop, but I'm also naturally drawn to freak athletes/measurables. Wilt looked absolutely spectacular length wise. 7'8 wingspan. Essentially a bigger,longer Deandre ..with more skill
Considering Wilt could play 48 MPG without complaining about getting tired, and do it for an entire season. I'd say that he'd outlast the majority of centers nowadays that gas after a 10 minute spell.
Consider Wilt's defense, his rebounding, and his natural touch around the basket, passing and scoring ability. He'd have dominated this era of centers.
It'd be interesting to see how any "small ball 'team could have dealt with Wilt, completely taking the paint away and them HAVING to resort to throwing the ball around the perimeter for threes but being unable to open up the paint. Their pace suddenly slows down just because of Wilt. _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk
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Did he just crib a prior post of yours?
