Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:27 am Post subject: Digitally restored to 60fps HD, G6 1963 Finals clips of Elgin Baylor and Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
28 points, 9reb, 6a
Jerry West:
32 points 10a 7reb
I learned live broadcasts used to be 60hz (~ equal to 60fps progressive scan) even way back in the 1960's and always wondered what the game tape would look like if attempted to be restored back to that frame rate. With some digital magic, you can simulate the missing frames and get a result that is 70% as good. All movements up to a moderate speed get restored to near as makes no difference the same, only the absolute quickest movements (such as the ball flying through the air at high speed) aren't as good as the original would have been. Still, a lot can now be seen in the footage that wasn't able to be seen so easily in under 30fps, such as head fakes and what not. Check these out, I'm working on highlighting every player from this game since the footage has been revamped.
The level of skil and athleticism of today’s players is so much different that 50 years ago. When people tell you that Jerry West and Elgin Baylor were great, they were...in comparison to their peers.
If you took almost anybody out of todays NBA and magically transported them onto one of those teams in 1963 they would average 60 points a game easily, and I mean anyone. Our summer league team this year would have had an undefeated season in 1963s nba.
When considering this video think about this. Any scrub in today’s NBA is better than the best player in the NBA 50 years go. Does that mean any scrub in the NBA in 2070 will be better than Lebron James or Kevin Durant?
The level of skil and athleticism of today’s players is so much different that 50 years ago. When people tell you that Jerry West and Elgin Baylor were great, they were...in comparison to their peers.
If you took almost anybody out of todays NBA and magically transported them onto one of those teams in 1963 they would average 60 points a game easily, and I mean anyone. Our summer league team this year would have had an undefeated season in 1963s nba.
If we all would understand carrying, palming, traveling and extremely frequent offensive foul charges were all called with even the most minor contact, or movement of the hand to the side of the ball, or hesitation in the dribble back then - we wouldn't be so quick to think "anyone in the NBA today" could do what West or Baylor, or others from there era were doing. I did a rules video on why Wilt couldn't play like Shaq once. I think it's about time I do one as to why West or Baylor can't play like Harden or Curry. There are some seriously strict rules back then handicapping the entire leagues mobility it isn't just a skill or athleticism thing as most people like to think.
I'm sure few care, or believes just how much it could change the way the game looks to our eyes but from collecting all the film and watching the historical film from then to now and seeing all the rule changes over time I know the elite players then had all the qualities necessary to succeed in the differently played game today they're just restricted in what they can do. A lot of the improved aesthetic differences really are down to rules that are no longer enforced today. Just my two cents.
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 22734 Location: La Jolla, San Diego
Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:06 am Post subject:
dantheman9758 wrote:
If we all would understand carrying, palming, traveling and extremely frequent offensive foul charges were all called with even the most minor contact, or movement of the hand to the side of the ball, or hesitation in the dribble back then - we wouldn't be so quick to think "anyone in the NBA today" could do what West or Baylor, or others from there era were doing. I did a rules video on why Wilt couldn't play like Shaq once. I think it's about time I do one as to why West or Baylor can't play like Harden or Curry. There are some seriously strict rules back then handicapping the entire leagues mobility it isn't just a skill or athleticism thing as most people like to think.
I'm sure few care, or believes just how much it could change the way the game looks to our eyes but from collecting all the film and watching the historical film from then to now and seeing all the rule changes over time I know the elite players then had all the qualities necessary to succeed in the differently played game today they're just restricted in what they can do. A lot of the improved aesthetic differences really are down to rules that are no longer enforced today. Just my two cents.
But don't things improve over time? I don't believe it's an ever-climbing graph, there will be peaks and valleys. Because I believe we've hit a few valleys from the 80's peaks. But overall, like real estate, it points upwards. All those things you say are true, but that's because the game was in its infancy. If you took some time traveling ballers from today like MJ, Kobe, Lebron, Hakeem, Shaq, Curry and bring them back there. I think the fans back then would be able to recognize the better athletes, and even with all the restrictions, the modern players would beat them hands down. I've never seen highlights this clear and of this duration of Baylor and West. I imagined JW's handles were more dynamic, but it looks very basic and dicey for today's game. I mean they all look basic.
So, to me, it's backwards to imagine what our guys can do in the past. The game is ever progressing, so we should imagine what JW and Baylor could do today if they had access to the same gyms, training equipment, technology, etc. You can't imagine JW in today's game without adapting. I think the greatest players of any past era can play in any future era if they got access to the same playgrounds, equipment, tech, etc.
If we all would understand carrying, palming, traveling and extremely frequent offensive foul charges were all called with even the most minor contact, or movement of the hand to the side of the ball, or hesitation in the dribble back then - we wouldn't be so quick to think "anyone in the NBA today" could do what West or Baylor, or others from there era were doing. I did a rules video on why Wilt couldn't play like Shaq once. I think it's about time I do one as to why West or Baylor can't play like Harden or Curry. There are some seriously strict rules back then handicapping the entire leagues mobility it isn't just a skill or athleticism thing as most people like to think.
I'm sure few care, or believes just how much it could change the way the game looks to our eyes but from collecting all the film and watching the historical film from then to now and seeing all the rule changes over time I know the elite players then had all the qualities necessary to succeed in the differently played game today they're just restricted in what they can do. A lot of the improved aesthetic differences really are down to rules that are no longer enforced today. Just my two cents.
But don't things improve over time? I don't believe it's an ever-climbing graph, there will be peaks and valleys. Because I believe we've hit a few valleys from the 80's peaks. But overall, like real estate, it points upwards. All those things you say are true, but that's because the game was in its infancy. If you took some time traveling ballers from today like MJ, Kobe, Lebron, Hakeem, Shaq, Curry and bring them back there. I think the fans back then would be able to recognize the better athletes, and even with all the restrictions, the modern players would beat them hands down. I've never seen highlights this clear and of this duration of Baylor and West. I imagined JW's handles were more dynamic, but it looks very basic and dicey for today's game. I mean they all look basic.
So, to me, it's backwards to imagine what our guys can do in the past. The game is ever progressing, so we should imagine what JW and Baylor could do today if they had access to the same gyms, training equipment, technology, etc. You can't imagine JW in today's game without adapting. I think the greatest players of any past era can play in any future era if they got access to the same playgrounds, equipment, tech, etc.
I've brought it up many times but Elgin's 71 point game was on ESPN Classic when I was in college (20+ years ago). I remember seeing it and saying...wow...the defense is literally several feet from him and he's just shooting one uncontested J after another. I have been trying to source that content for ages now.
It's a simple premise really. Back then players were barely making a salary that required an off-season job...now bench players are living like moguls. WORLD WIDE talent pool is on several exponential orders of magnitude today than it was in 1960. It's almost laughable the disparity. But yeah, the best in a pool of 10,000,000 would barely be able to hang with the best of 100,000 (yeah I know it's made up #'s but come tf on).
Any of you guys follow MMA? It's the perfect case study of a sport accelerating at light speed. The best of today would beat the living brakes off the guys from the early 90's. The difference here is the MMA fighters from the early 90's mostly all amidt they'd get (bleep) tooled. Just silly. _________________ KOBE
If we all would understand carrying, palming, traveling and extremely frequent offensive foul charges were all called with even the most minor contact, or movement of the hand to the side of the ball, or hesitation in the dribble back then - we wouldn't be so quick to think "anyone in the NBA today" could do what West or Baylor, or others from there era were doing. I did a rules video on why Wilt couldn't play like Shaq once. I think it's about time I do one as to why West or Baylor can't play like Harden or Curry. There are some seriously strict rules back then handicapping the entire leagues mobility it isn't just a skill or athleticism thing as most people like to think.
I'm sure few care, or believes just how much it could change the way the game looks to our eyes but from collecting all the film and watching the historical film from then to now and seeing all the rule changes over time I know the elite players then had all the qualities necessary to succeed in the differently played game today they're just restricted in what they can do. A lot of the improved aesthetic differences really are down to rules that are no longer enforced today. Just my two cents.
But don't things improve over time? I don't believe it's an ever-climbing graph, there will be peaks and valleys. Because I believe we've hit a few valleys from the 80's peaks. But overall, like real estate, it points upwards. All those things you say are true, but that's because the game was in its infancy. If you took some time traveling ballers from today like MJ, Kobe, Lebron, Hakeem, Shaq, Curry and bring them back there. I think the fans back then would be able to recognize the better athletes, and even with all the restrictions, the modern players would beat them hands down. I've never seen highlights this clear and of this duration of Baylor and West. I imagined JW's handles were more dynamic, but it looks very basic and dicey for today's game. I mean they all look basic.
So, to me, it's backwards to imagine what our guys can do in the past. The game is ever progressing, so we should imagine what JW and Baylor could do today if they had access to the same gyms, training equipment, technology, etc. You can't imagine JW in today's game without adapting. I think the greatest players of any past era can play in any future era if they got access to the same playgrounds, equipment, tech, etc.
How many of Westbrook's or Harden's dribble "moves" do you think he'd have left if carrying, palming, traveling was heavily enforced in today's game? Or if they had to keep their hands at the top (not the side) of the ball)
dantheman9758 wrote:
If we all would understand carrying, palming, traveling and extremely frequent offensive foul charges were all called with even the most minor contact, or movement of the hand to the side of the ball, or hesitation in the dribble back then - we wouldn't be so quick to think "anyone in the NBA today" could do what West or Baylor, or others from there era were doing. I did a rules video on why Wilt couldn't play like Shaq once. I think it's about time I do one as to why West or Baylor can't play like Harden or Curry. There are some seriously strict rules back then handicapping the entire leagues mobility it isn't just a skill or athleticism thing as most people like to think.
I'm sure few care, or believes just how much it could change the way the game looks to our eyes but from collecting all the film and watching the historical film from then to now and seeing all the rule changes over time I know the elite players then had all the qualities necessary to succeed in the differently played game today they're just restricted in what they can do. A lot of the improved aesthetic differences really are down to rules that are no longer enforced today. Just my two cents.
True words. Imagining what Elgin or West could do with the leniency the league has around dribbling nowadays... _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk
The level of skil and athleticism of today’s players is so much different that 50 years ago. When people tell you that Jerry West and Elgin Baylor were great, they were...in comparison to their peers.
If you took almost anybody out of todays NBA and magically transported them onto one of those teams in 1963 they would average 60 points a game easily, and I mean anyone. Our summer league team this year would have had an undefeated season in 1963s nba.
When considering this video think about this. Any scrub in today’s NBA is better than the best player in the NBA 50 years go. Does that mean any scrub in the NBA in 2070 will be better than Lebron James or Kevin Durant?
Nah. In 50 years they won’t be better than Kobe Bryant or Kevin Durant.
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 22734 Location: La Jolla, San Diego
Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:52 am Post subject:
MJST, yes, there will be less this, less that if you want to bring rules of the past into today's world. I've acknowledged that. Stop thinking backwards. Think what JW would do in today's league. I think he can play today because he'd have access to the same things Harden and Curry. Likewise, you telling me Harden and Curry can't adapt to the past? If a guy isn't allowd to palm, carry the ball, cross me over and break my ankles.. I'd like to guard that guy.
The level of skil and athleticism of today’s players is so much different that 50 years ago. When people tell you that Jerry West and Elgin Baylor were great, they were...in comparison to their peers.
If you took almost anybody out of todays NBA and magically transported them onto one of those teams in 1963 they would average 60 points a game easily, and I mean anyone. Our summer league team this year would have had an undefeated season in 1963s nba.
When considering this video think about this. Any scrub in today’s NBA is better than the best player in the NBA 50 years go. Does that mean any scrub in the NBA in 2070 will be better than Lebron James or Kevin Durant?
No because you're assuming a linear relationship of progression over time. It's about talent pool and we're reaching critical mass once the NBA saturates a few more market.
(Not at directed at you Fortysix just a general take)....Don't make this ish harder than it is. On a macro level, increasing the talent pool will invariably increase the production of the outliers. It's NOT a hard concept. Christ.
How about I make up a new sport, pay guys $50K to play it. In 50 years that pay scale and subsequently, that exposure is magnified on several orders of magnitude. You think the best of the best in 50 years might be better than the best of the best that decided to join my new league? Just a little? FFS, in every avenue of life that exists that occurs. EVERY. I really hope some of y'all aren't in a position to hire people. Holy (bleep). _________________ KOBE
If we all would understand carrying, palming, traveling and extremely frequent offensive foul charges were all called with even the most minor contact, or movement of the hand to the side of the ball, or hesitation in the dribble back then - we wouldn't be so quick to think "anyone in the NBA today" could do what West or Baylor, or others from there era were doing. I did a rules video on why Wilt couldn't play like Shaq once. I think it's about time I do one as to why West or Baylor can't play like Harden or Curry. There are some seriously strict rules back then handicapping the entire leagues mobility it isn't just a skill or athleticism thing as most people like to think.
I'm sure few care, or believes just how much it could change the way the game looks to our eyes but from collecting all the film and watching the historical film from then to now and seeing all the rule changes over time I know the elite players then had all the qualities necessary to succeed in the differently played game today they're just restricted in what they can do. A lot of the improved aesthetic differences really are down to rules that are no longer enforced today. Just my two cents.
The game always changes and evolves and that's just the way it is. It's a never ending debate and frankly it's silly. The comical "insults" directed at the Baylors and Wests will become the comical "insults" directed at Kobe and LeBron by the next generation. Ho hum.
What some folks may not consider is the possibility that today's game, for all of its superior athleticism, shooting etc, is becoming boring. Passing the ball around the perimeter until someone launches a three gets to be like watching paint dry. It's nice that there's a lot of video game-type final scores, but something is missing and it's becoming more obvious with each passing season.
Thanks as ever, Dan, for all of your great work in archiving and improving the available footage from the old days. It's a really vital and valuable effort for all of the students/historians of the sport.
Honest question... did Baylor dribble at least two bounces at all with his left hand during the entire clip? I don't even recall seeing one left handed dribble.
Today’s players would thump those from the sixties and seventies, even if they were reffed severely for their dribble moves. They would adjust quickly since they would have pretty significant physical advantages. Things evolve and progress, and as the other poster said, since there is so much more money and attention paid to the game now worldwide, the talent pool is much larger and more focus can be paid to developing skills, physical acumen, and systems than when being a “pro” was potentially just a side gig. Offenses and therefore defenses are also more sophisticated today than they were when the game was first starting to gain popularity.
If Kobe Bryant from 2006 magically went back in time to 1963, I personally think he would score 101+ in a single game if the 3 point line existed.
He’d score more than that
When I saw those clips I imagined Westbrook being transported back then with how athletic he is...those players heads would explode if they were up against him lol.
If we all would understand carrying, palming, traveling and extremely frequent offensive foul charges were all called with even the most minor contact, or movement of the hand to the side of the ball, or hesitation in the dribble back then - we wouldn't be so quick to think "anyone in the NBA today" could do what West or Baylor, or others from there era were doing. I did a rules video on why Wilt couldn't play like Shaq once. I think it's about time I do one as to why West or Baylor can't play like Harden or Curry. There are some seriously strict rules back then handicapping the entire leagues mobility it isn't just a skill or athleticism thing as most people like to think.
I'm sure few care, or believes just how much it could change the way the game looks to our eyes but from collecting all the film and watching the historical film from then to now and seeing all the rule changes over time I know the elite players then had all the qualities necessary to succeed in the differently played game today they're just restricted in what they can do. A lot of the improved aesthetic differences really are down to rules that are no longer enforced today. Just my two cents.
But don't things improve over time? I don't believe it's an ever-climbing graph, there will be peaks and valleys. Because I believe we've hit a few valleys from the 80's peaks. But overall, like real estate, it points upwards. All those things you say are true, but that's because the game was in its infancy. If you took some time traveling ballers from today like MJ, Kobe, Lebron, Hakeem, Shaq, Curry and bring them back there. I think the fans back then would be able to recognize the better athletes, and even with all the restrictions, the modern players would beat them hands down. I've never seen highlights this clear and of this duration of Baylor and West. I imagined JW's handles were more dynamic, but it looks very basic and dicey for today's game. I mean they all look basic.
So, to me, it's backwards to imagine what our guys can do in the past. The game is ever progressing, so we should imagine what JW and Baylor could do today if they had access to the same gyms, training equipment, technology, etc. You can't imagine JW in today's game without adapting. I think the greatest players of any past era can play in any future era if they got access to the same playgrounds, equipment, tech, etc.
I've brought it up many times but Elgin's 71 point game was on ESPN Classic when I was in college (20+ years ago). I remember seeing it and saying...wow...the defense is literally several feet from him and he's just shooting one uncontested J after another. I have been trying to source that content for ages now.
It's a simple premise really. Back then players were barely making a salary that required an off-season job...now bench players are living like moguls. WORLD WIDE talent pool is on several exponential orders of magnitude today than it was in 1960. It's almost laughable the disparity. But yeah, the best in a pool of 10,000,000 would barely be able to hang with the best of 100,000 (yeah I know it's made up #'s but come tf on).
Any of you guys follow MMA? It's the perfect case study of a sport accelerating at light speed. The best of today would beat the living brakes off the guys from the early 90's. The difference here is the MMA fighters from the early 90's mostly all amidt they'd get (bleep) tooled. Just silly.
With 99.97% certainty that game does not exist for replay. Almost nothing from that era exists, as far as I'm aware there are not noteworthy games from players other than a few debuts towards the late sixties (Bradley, Alcindor and Maravich for example). Standout statistical games being preserved on film is a privilege reserved only for players from the 1980's and on save for an outlier game in the 1970's that they decided to keep (Maravich's 68). If Baylor's 71 point game exists or any other great players great night from that era I'd eat my hat, I'm in touch with the Baylor family and they have never known or indicated to me that that game exists on film. So I don't know what game you saw but I can't imagine it's that one, I can't imagine it's any game I haven't already seen and this is the only one I know of that is ever shown in full outside of 70's games - are you sure you saw that game? Being shown to the public? No other collectors ever mention seeing that game either so forgive me for being skeptical I just want to know because if it's out there that's of course something I'd like to see myself.
A theory that big money makes players play harder is not one I'll buy. I counter that extrinsic motivation in the form of money is not what makes a league more competitive. I will always believe intrinsic motivation is what is key. An intrinsic passion is what makes players play hard. If you read some of the former players books, many of the players from that era could have made more money outside the league hell many of those guys had college degrees in law, yet you read the books and they say they'd have played for free because nothing could keep them from the competitive thrill of the game. Even after that era, same kinds of things are said - they'd have played for free. You had the absolute best competitive guys out there no question. If there is any player in the league right now who plays for money but wouldn't have otherwise played had the money not been there you won't get a fraction of the effort out of that player as you would any of the guys who plays for intrinsic motivation and I dare to say there isn't a soul in the league worth being in the league who has that mentality anyways. If you're just out there to get a check, you aren't good competition because what do you even care about winning? Right? At a certain point money is actually a proven disincentive psychologically, it's got a name for it: The overjustification effect:
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