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44TheLogo
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:15 am    Post subject:

PHILosophize wrote:
I barely watch college basketball and even I know that Cincinnati is way too highly seeded.


no, they're not. cincinnati is elite.
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PHILosophize
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:18 am    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
PHILosophize wrote:
I barely watch college basketball and even I know that Cincinnati is way too highly seeded.


no, they're not. cincinnati is elite.


Michigan State should be a 2 and they should be a 3. I'd also pick Michigan and Arizona against them in a head-to-head easily.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:23 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Even if we accept the committee's rationale about how every game equally counts for inclusion....the way a team finishes should definitely impact seeding....Arizona as a #4?!?!


Eh. For reasons that I do not understand, the Pac 12 has been sucking pretty hard in both football and basketball. I caught parts of a few Pac 12 games this year, and frankly the quality of play was not at the level of the other power conferences. If you go by RPI, Arizona is right where it belongs.

As for OSU and Baylor, I have less sympathy for big conference underachievers than I do for small conference runners up. OSU and Baylor had losing records in their conference and both lost 14 games on the season. They did have some good wins, but I just can't get outraged about an 18-14 team missing the tournament. I have a lot more sympathy for Saint Mary's and MTSU. Sure, they didn't play the same schedule, but to a large extent the scheduling disparity is a phenomenon created by the power conferences. I'd rather give a shot to MTSU than stick a mediocre team like Syracuse or Texas into the field.


I disagree....Baylor and OK State played in the toughest conference in the country....and were a problem every night they stepped on the court. St. Mary's would have been lucky to finish ahead of Iowa State in the Big 12....actually, I do not feel they could finish ahead of Iowa State. I kind of see your point with Middle Tennessee State...but they did have chances for big wins, and came up short.....then came up short in a conference they clearly had the most talent. In regards to St. Mary's....they have a long history of running from competitive games. Rhode Island and Creighton are both on the record of trying to schedule home and home games with St. Mary's this season and next...St. Mary's rejected both. St. Mary's had a home and home contract with Nevada last year and this season...Nevada went to St. Mary's last season....and when Nevada was projected to be good this season, St. Mary's bought out the contract to avoid playing Nevada this season. St. Mary's did not even deserve consideration in my opinion.....the most cowardly team in the NCAA.

In regards to Arizona's seeding....the questions I posed are what I feel is most important in regards to seeding....not their RPI and early season struggles.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:27 am    Post subject:

PHILosophize wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
PHILosophize wrote:
I barely watch college basketball and even I know that Cincinnati is way too highly seeded.


no, they're not. cincinnati is elite.


Michigan State should be a 2 and they should be a 3. I'd also pick Michigan and Arizona against them in a head-to-head easily.


I do not think Cincy is elite....not even close to it.....they beat Wichita State and Houston (and lost to Wichita State) who are both good teams, but not elite....that is most of their resume.....they lost to every other ranked team they played (Florida & Xavier). Record against ranked teams was 2-3...that is not elite.
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Last edited by adkindo on Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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44TheLogo
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:27 am    Post subject:

PHILosophize wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
PHILosophize wrote:
I barely watch college basketball and even I know that Cincinnati is way too highly seeded.


no, they're not. cincinnati is elite.


Michigan State should be a 2 and they should be a 3. I'd also pick Michigan and Arizona against them in a head-to-head easily.


so according to you being 1 seed too high is "way too highly seeded?"

and seeding isn't based on who would win in a head-to-head matchup, else providence would be the 1 seed over xavier seeing as how they're 2-1 against them. actually i'm surprised nobody is upset about xavier getting a 1 seed.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:29 am    Post subject:

Question about the 2 play in games....I see they are both ranked #11 instead of #16? Is it because they are from a power 5 conference?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:29 am    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
PHILosophize wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
PHILosophize wrote:
I barely watch college basketball and even I know that Cincinnati is way too highly seeded.


no, they're not. cincinnati is elite.


Michigan State should be a 2 and they should be a 3. I'd also pick Michigan and Arizona against them in a head-to-head easily.


so according to you being 1 seed too high is "way too highly seeded?"

and seeding isn't based on who would win in a head-to-head matchup, else providence would be the 1 seed over xavier seeing as how they're 2-1 against them. actually i'm surprised nobody is upset about xavier getting a 1 seed.


Xavier is a pretender....but it's hard to make a case for a deserving team that did not get a #1 Seed....but i would not have been upset if Duke or UNC got that #1 Seed.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:30 am    Post subject:

PHILosophize wrote:
USC was snubbed big time too


Yep, my guess is it had to do with the allegations more than their record.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:33 am    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
PHILosophize wrote:
USC was snubbed big time too


Yep, my guess is it had to do with the allegations more than their record.


I personally thought USC was in....but man when you look at their resume, they have absolutely nothing in regards to quality wins....I mean what was their best win?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:36 am    Post subject:

cincy's defense is elite. that makes them an elite team in my book.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:41 am    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
cincy's defense is elite. that makes them an elite team in my book.


so how many game will you have them winning in the tournament?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:46 am    Post subject:

Let's go PENN! We back in the tourney again.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:46 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
PHILosophize wrote:
USC was snubbed big time too


Yep, my guess is it had to do with the allegations more than their record.


I personally thought USC was in....but man when you look at their resume, they have absolutely nothing in regards to quality wins....I mean what was their best win?


If we were looking at quality wins, some of the lower seeded schools from the tournament wouldn't even get in since they play in a much worst conference than the Pac-12. Thats why I don't think thats a good argument.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:47 am    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
Question about the 2 play in games....I see they are both ranked #11 instead of #16? Is it because they are from a power 5 conference?


answer from NCAA...

Quote:
When the Division I menís basketball committee decided to expand the field to 68 teams in advance of the 2011 tournament, they came up with the First Four concept and initially looked at two formats.

The first involved having the last eight teams on the overall seed list (which is a ranking of all 68 teams) to play four games to determine the four No. 16 seeds. The other concept was to take the last eight at-large selections and have those teams play four games to advance.

Eventually they decided on a hybrid of the two options, with the last four at-large teams and the last four on the overall seed list playing for the right to advance to the second round.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:49 am    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
PHILosophize wrote:
USC was snubbed big time too


Yep, my guess is it had to do with the allegations more than their record.


I personally thought USC was in....but man when you look at their resume, they have absolutely nothing in regards to quality wins....I mean what was their best win?


If we were looking at quality wins, some of the lower seeded schools from the tournament wouldn't even get in since they play in a much worst conference than the Pac-12. Thats why I don't think thats a good argument.


are you referring to at-large bids or automatic qualifiers? Obviously AQ's win their conference tournament to punch their ticket.
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PHILosophize
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:49 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Let's go PENN! We back in the tourney again.


looks like they might be turning the corner since that whole Sandusky thing
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44TheLogo
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:46 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
cincy's defense is elite. that makes them an elite team in my book.


so how many game will you have them winning in the tournament?


Elite 8 losing to arizona
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:49 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
I disagree....Baylor and OK State played in the toughest conference in the country....and were a problem every night they stepped on the court


....and finished 8-10. Four Big 12 teams finished 8-10. Two of them made the tournament. Two did not.

This is a problem that a lot of us have with the tournament. For the big conferences, a spot in the tournament is like a participation award. If Baylor and OSU had made the field, then 9 out of 10 teams in the Big 12 would have made it.

I realize that coaches and ADs lose their jobs over stuff like this, but a spot in the tournament should not be about job security any more than it should be a participation award. I acknowledge what you're saying about St. Mary's, but I'd still rather see them in the tournament than an 8-10 team from the Big 12.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:20 pm    Post subject:

Oklahoma State probably should have made it over Oklahoma, right? I mean I get why OU is in but still.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:29 pm    Post subject:

^^^^but why? It would just promote AD's around the country to schedule only Kenpom Sub 250 teams until conference play. Gonzaga will play anyone at any time and at any location. That is what should be expected from 1 Bid conferences if they want to grow to a two bid conference. I have read complaints about WVU's non-conference schedule....and we played Texas A&M, Missouri, Virginia, and Kentucky...and had Pitt scheduled for over 3 years (had no idea they would blow up and suck)....yet some questioned our ooc schedule....then have to play the Big 12 schedule where there really is no night off....we do not have a Pitt, Rutgers, Depaul, Cal or Ole Miss type teams to pencil in automatic wins.....proven by the fact that we lost @ Iowa State....as did Oklahoma, Baylor and Texas Tech. I think the committee was very clear....you have to atleast try which teams like Gonzaga, Middle Tennessee, Rhode Island, Nevada and a few others did....St. Mary's actively avoids any team out of conference that they feel could beat them....and have did this for years....and it has cost them tournament bids 3 or 4 times. I am hearing Gonzaga may bolt to the Mountain West....and i hope they do not because that will allow St. Mary's to continue this pattern and be rewarded for it.
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Last edited by adkindo on Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PHILosophize
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:32 pm    Post subject:

well didn't Oklahoma State beat Oklahoma and Kansas twice?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:33 pm    Post subject:

PHILosophize wrote:
Oklahoma State probably should have made it over Oklahoma, right? I mean I get why OU is in but still.


not really if every game is equal no matter when played....Oklahoma had a lot of big wins early in year...#25 USC, @ #3 Wichita State, @ #10 TCU, Oklahoma State, #8 Texas Tech, #16 TCU, #5 Kansas, Kansas State
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:34 pm    Post subject:

PHILosophize wrote:
well didn't Oklahoma State beat Oklahoma and Kansas twice?


Oklahoma once, Kansas twice...in season..then Oklahoma again in Big 12 tournament
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:42 pm    Post subject:

Why? Because we already know that OSU isn't good enough to contend for the national championship. OSU couldn't even finish at .500 in its conference. A tournament invitation shouldn't be a participation award. I'd rather see St. Mary's and MTSU, or any of the other little schools that get screwed because they play in little conferences.

This is why a lot of us got worked up when the NCAA tried to expand the tournament a few years back. It would have meant more mediocre big conference teams getting participation awards. I'd rather see more Princetons and George Masons and fewer Oklahomas and Arizona States. The powerhouses should have no problem with the minnows, but you never know. And that's the magic of the NCAA tournament.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:54 pm    Post subject:

The selection committee apparently weighted the quadrant system very heavily. So for everyone who was snubbed, we need to look at their performance relative to the quadrant system. After looking at their quadrant records, it becomes clear to me that teams had to have avoided quadrant 3 and 4 losses, as well as having a number of signature quadrant 1 or 2 wins to make the tournament:

Quadrant 1: Home games vs. 1-30 RPI teams; Neutral-site games vs. 1-50 RPI; Away games vs. 1-75 RPI
Quadrant 2: Home games vs. 31-75 RPI; Neutral-site games vs. 51-100 RPI; Away games vs. 76-135 RPI
Quadrant 3: Home games vs. 76-160 RPI; Neutral-site games vs. 101-200 RPI; Away games vs. 136-240 RPI
Quadrant 4: Home games vs. 161-plus RPI; Neutral-site games vs. 201-plus RPI; Away games vs. 241-plus RPI

For St. Mary's, they had two quadrant 3 losses (neutral court loss to Washington State, away loss to San Francisco).

USC had a quadrant 4 loss, losing at home to Princeton, and didn't have any quadrant 1 wins to really compensate for it. That's pretty bad.

Louisville had no really losses, but also no signature wins.

Keeping this system in mind, I think the biggest miss by the committee was really Oklahoma State who had no bad losses and had some very strong Quadrant 1 wins including @ Kansas, @ WVU, and a Quadrant 2 win home vs Texas Tech.

With the Quadrant system in mind, I'd probably replace Syracuse with Oklahoma State.
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