Many, Many Questions About Potential Fit Issues
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Joe Pesci
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:55 pm    Post subject: Many, Many Questions About Potential Fit Issues

As far as I can tell LeBron James has always played with either a Center who can shoot or a Center who strictly defends and rebounds (but does not need the ball).

So, if the Lakers get a commitment from George and James, how well would Julius Randle fit into a lineup with those two guys (who need the ball) and Ingram (who also needs the ball)?

How well would, specifically, James and Randle fit when you also factor in the integration of both Ingram and, especially, Paul George?

Would Randle cramp James’ style?

Are Randle and James’ games incompatible when other guys need their shots too?

I see a lot of talk of a James/Randle/George/Ingram lineup, but, although, admittedly, a monster of a lineup defensively, how well would a lineup like this coexist offensively?

Who suffers most here from what I see to be an influx of too much talent and not enough players (between Ingram, Randle, James, and George) who would know how to be effective without their customary high usage?

Who becomes the role player in this situation, and would that player, whoever it becomes, be effective or happy in that role as a role player?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:02 pm    Post subject:

Great problems to have.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:15 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Great problems to have.

I knew as soon as I typed “too much talent” someone would say this.

The reality, though, is that bad fits are never good, especially when you consider paying Randle upwards of 20 mill as his game becomes marginalized and his trade value plummets (as a guy with an expensive contract and an awkward fit on most NBA lineups because of his lack of a jumper).

I’m just displaying a little foresight, asking the questions that many may not even consider until they actually see these guys in action on their television screens.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:23 pm    Post subject:

I do think we are going through a little bit of a honeymoon phase with Randle where we've gone from underrating him to being slightly overoptimistic

I'm not worried about him being a good player, because he's sustained his success over a long period of time now... however, I do worry that we end up overpaying for a jump shot that may never come.

If someone offers a max... we are in a quandary.

If we decline and he develops the midrange or three, we lose out on a perennial all star for several years.

If we sign him and he's reached his ceiling... we are stuck with a good player like DeAndre who helps the team but remains a drain on cap space relative to his overall contribution.

Greater basketball minds than mine will ultimately have to make that determination.


Last edited by Sentient Meat on Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:25 pm    Post subject:

I think the best thing to do if someone offers him a max is to try to work out a sign and trade. For us to keep him, I think Randle's contract has to be similiar to JC, where it is good value for money and easily traded if need be.

I think we need to discount Randle's play a bit because it is in a contract year. How many times have we seen players play out of their minds in a contract year only to regress once large contract is signed *cough Whiteside cough*
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:37 pm    Post subject:

Vanquish wrote:
I think the best thing to do if someone offers him a max is to try to work out a sign and trade. For us to keep him, I think Randle's contract has to be similiar to JC, where it is good value for money and easily traded if need be.

I think we need to discount Randle's play a bit because it is in a contract year. How many times have we seen players play out of their minds in a contract year only to regress once large contract is signed *cough Whiteside cough*

More importantly than the contract year angle, Randle is a CLEAR top two scoring option on this team and he has the luxury, as a top two scoring option, of playing with two guys in Lopez and Kuzma who spread the floor for him to do his drive and bully thing.

What happens when he is no longer a CLEAR top two scoring option?
What happens when he doesn’t have the freedom, with James and George in tow, to drive until his heart is content?

I think his play is definitely for real, no doubt, but I also think that he needs high usage to be efffective (not a knock at all — many players do), and he also needs to play with supplementary, somewhat submissive, bigs who can shoot the three and spread the floor for his drive game.

If these elements don’t exist, I think his game will look markedly different.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:44 pm    Post subject:

-LeBron is top option
-Randle is second option(LeBron played with near prime Zydrunas Illgauskas)
-Ingram is third option, and stagger lineups where Ingram is top option when leading bench
-George dramatically lowers usage in starting lineup and plays Klay Thompson role
-Lonzo is the multiplier

Done.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:46 pm    Post subject:

If Green fits with Durant, Curry and Thompson, why would Randle have an issue playing with Lebron and George? There wouldn’t be a problem.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:48 pm    Post subject:

I think our new analytics department will play a role in putting together the roster for this summer.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:52 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
If Green fits with Durant, Curry and Thompson, why would Randle have an issue playing with Lebron and George? There wouldn’t be a problem.

Green is nowhere near the offensive player that Randle is. We’re only talking about offense here.

If the Lakers pay Randle 18 mill to completely sacrifice his offense (arguably the best part of his game), then that is wasted money ... thus the thread.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:55 pm    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
If Green fits with Durant, Curry and Thompson, why would Randle have an issue playing with Lebron and George? There wouldn’t be a problem.

Green is nowhere near the offensive player that Randle is. We’re only talking about offense here.

If the Lakers pay Randle 18 mill to completely sacrifice his offense (arguably the best part of his game), then that is wasted money ... thus the thread.


No because you're keeping Randle to play Luke to LeBron's Yoda for three years. No guarantee you can get him back once you let him go.

So it's not a waste at 18 million... when it approaches 25 and cripples the cap space, it becomes much more dicey.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:58 pm    Post subject:

Lakers4Life33 wrote:
-LeBron is top option
-Randle is second option(LeBron played with near prime Zydrunas Illgauskas)
-Ingram is third option, and stagger lineups where Ingram is top option when leading bench
-George dramatically lowers usage in starting lineup and plays Klay Thompson role
-Lonzo is the multiplier

Done.

You want George to play the Thompson role?

Thompson is the CLEAR third option behind two all-timers, but, in your scenario, George is playing fourth fiddle to James and two pubescent youngsters who haven’t earned the right to carry George’s jockstrap.

If George is relegated to fourth option, then Pope at probably sub-10 mill per would be a far better option than George at 30 per.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:03 pm    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
If Green fits with Durant, Curry and Thompson, why would Randle have an issue playing with Lebron and George? There wouldn’t be a problem.

Green is nowhere near the offensive player that Randle is. We’re only talking about offense here.

If the Lakers pay Randle 18 mill to completely sacrifice his offense (arguably the best part of his game), then that is wasted money ... thus the thread.


No because you're keeping Randle to play Luke to LeBron's Yoda for three years. No guarantee you can get him back once you let him go.

So it's not a waste at 18 million... when it approaches 25 and cripples the cap space, it becomes much more dicey.

Understood and I agree, Randle could learn a whole helluva lot from James, but, in the meantime, during those “three years”, can they coexist offensively while Ingram and George need their usage as well?

Good points as usual sir, but I still question if Randle will be able to fit in a lineup with multiple (3) guys who will need to hold the ball a lot.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:06 pm    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
If Green fits with Durant, Curry and Thompson, why would Randle have an issue playing with Lebron and George? There wouldn’t be a problem.

Green is nowhere near the offensive player that Randle is. We’re only talking about offense here.

If the Lakers pay Randle 18 mill to completely sacrifice his offense (arguably the best part of his game), then that is wasted money ... thus the thread.


He wouldn't be sacrificing his offense, he would be one of our offensive weapons. It isn't like the guy puts up 18-20 shots per game, he is our leading scorer lately because he is by far our most efficient player. With Lebron and George there is no way he couldn't average 12-15 ppg.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:13 pm    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
If Green fits with Durant, Curry and Thompson, why would Randle have an issue playing with Lebron and George? There wouldn’t be a problem.

Green is nowhere near the offensive player that Randle is. We’re only talking about offense here.

If the Lakers pay Randle 18 mill to completely sacrifice his offense (arguably the best part of his game), then that is wasted money ... thus the thread.


No because you're keeping Randle to play Luke to LeBron's Yoda for three years. No guarantee you can get him back once you let him go.

So it's not a waste at 18 million... when it approaches 25 and cripples the cap space, it becomes much more dicey.

Understood and I agree, Randle could learn a whole helluva lot from James, but, in the meantime, during those “three years”, can they coexist offensively while Ingram and George need their usage as well?

Good points as usual sir, but I still question if Randle will be able to fit in a lineup with multiple (3) guys who will need to hold the ball a lot.


Money aside, there might also be of whether Randle is willing to accept a reduced offensive role. He didn't take the benching early in the season all that well and he only did better once he got promoted to the starting line up and was given his current role. Even if Randle is not benched next year, would he accept be regulated to being a glorified role player behind lebron and PG 13?


Last edited by Vanquish on Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:13 pm    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
If Green fits with Durant, Curry and Thompson, why would Randle have an issue playing with Lebron and George? There wouldn’t be a problem.

Green is nowhere near the offensive player that Randle is. We’re only talking about offense here.

If the Lakers pay Randle 18 mill to completely sacrifice his offense (arguably the best part of his game), then that is wasted money ... thus the thread.


No because you're keeping Randle to play Luke to LeBron's Yoda for three years. No guarantee you can get him back once you let him go.

So it's not a waste at 18 million... when it approaches 25 and cripples the cap space, it becomes much more dicey.

Understood and I agree, Randle could learn a whole helluva lot from James, but, in the meantime, during those “three years”, can they coexist offensively while Ingram and George need their usage as well?

Good points as usual sir, but I still question if Randle will be able to fit in a lineup with multiple (3) guys who will need to hold the ball a lot.


I'd still prefer one more pure shooter to spread the floor... we don't know if we are going to keep Brook or KCP... Hart looks promising but his sample size is pretty small. We don't know if we get Jekyll or Hyde Lonzo... so that's why you see me pimping IT probably more than I should.

I think it's the old Best Player Available quandary... Not the ideal fit but they are the best players. I like LeBron because he can run the point while no one other than Lonzo can... (Maybe Ingram, but still unproven over a long period of time as a point forward) PG adds the shooting but he will be the only pure shooter unless we for sure sign Brook who I didn't think was good enough, but seems to be proving everyone wrong.

Klay is a maybe a better fit, but Mychal pretty much said he's not coming so I think we'd be pretty damn lucky to get those two.

But yeah we need to get Seth or someone who can shoot if we don't resign IT or Brook... otherwise it's going to look like Duke without Greyson around here.
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Joe Pesci
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:20 pm    Post subject:

Even if Hart becomes the shooter you say we need, the fit between Randle and James (with Ingram and George) is still questionable.

Someone would have to sacrifice more than perhaps they would like.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:26 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
If Green fits with Durant, Curry and Thompson, why would Randle have an issue playing with Lebron and George? There wouldn’t be a problem.

Green is nowhere near the offensive player that Randle is. We’re only talking about offense here.

If the Lakers pay Randle 18 mill to completely sacrifice his offense (arguably the best part of his game), then that is wasted money ... thus the thread.


He wouldn't be sacrificing his offense, he would be one of our offensive weapons. It isn't like the guy puts up 18-20 shots per game, he is our leading scorer lately because he is by far our most efficient player. With Lebron and George there is no way he couldn't average 12-15 ppg.

I’m not going to look up his numbers, but Randle, according to my eyes, is quite the aggressive offensive player. He seems to be given the ball as a distinct top offensive option, probing patiently for his drive.

Will these type of opportunities exist when he is on the floor with George and James and Ingram?

I’m only asking. Your post is fair.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:26 pm    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
Even if Hart becomes the shooter you say we need, the fit between Randle and James (with Ingram and George) is still questionable.

Someone would have to sacrifice more than perhaps they would like.


Randle would probably have to Steve Young it a bit... LeBron would definitely slow the growth of he and Ingram a little bit. But hopefully it would be a graceful transition like how Kareem gave way to Magic.

The alternative is roll with what we have... sign maybe a rim protector and a shooter and hope two or three of the youngsters make a quantum leap.

Personally, I'd be cool with that, but if I take sentimentality out of the equation... you have to sign LBJ and PG. As I've said... if he's going to pressure Magic into compromising the core... then I don't want him. I also don't want any Farewell Tour scenario where he keeps his place once he stops producing.

But if we can find a comfortable equilibrium of respect between Bron and the front office, then that is the best thing to do if all you want to do is win.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:35 pm    Post subject:

As I envision it, the system they run offensively would be egalitarian in nature. The parts would be interchangeable. Jordan nicknamed the triangle as an "equal opportunity offense," and while the Lakers aren't going to run the triangle, I'd imagine that their offense would be "equal opportunity" in nature as well. All of the players would have to sacrifice to some degree, so there's no way around that.

Assuming Randle returns and starts at C (neither of which is a guarantee, obviously), I can easily see a good number of their sets involving him at the top of the key to take advantage of the speed advantage he'd have over most starting C's. LeBron will probably be featured in the high post and as a pick and roll ball handler a lot of the time, George would likely be featured the same way KCP is, Ball would be a screen setter, cutter, and occasional catch and shoot guy, and Ingram a DHO guy and cutter.

This would be primarily a speed team and their transition principles would mostly be the same. Whoever grabs the rebound or retrieves the ball off of live ball turnovers would have the freedom to push and everyone else would just fill the spots. Randle and LeBron could both be rim-runners if they don't have the ball.

I don't think the fit would be quite as tricky to figure out as many have assumed.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:38 pm    Post subject:

Judah wrote:
As I envision it, the system they run offensively would be egalitarian in nature. The parts would be interchangeable. Jordan nicknamed the triangle as an "equal opportunity offense," and while the Lakers aren't going to run the triangle, I'd imagine that their offense would be "equal opportunity" in nature as well. All of the players would have to sacrifice to some degree, so there's no way around that.

Assuming Randle returns and starts at C (neither of which is a guarantee, obviously), I can easily see a good number of their sets involving him at the top of the key to take advantage of the speed advantage he'd have over most starting C's. LeBron will probably be featured in the high post and as a pick and roll ball handler a lot of the time, George would likely be featured the same way KCP is, Ball would be a screen setter, cutter, and occasional catch and shoot guy, and Ingram a DHO guy and cutter.

This would be primarily a speed team and their transition principles would mostly be the same. Whoever grabs the rebound or retrieves the ball off of live ball turnovers would have the freedom to push and everyone else would just fill the spots. Randle and LeBron could both be rim-runners if they don't have the ball.

I don't think the fit would be quite as tricky to figure out as many have assumed.


Playing chess with yourself... how would you neutralize them defensively?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:42 pm    Post subject:

If LeBron has won with Mozzy and Tristan Thompson, I'm not concerned.

Overthinking.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:44 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
If LeBron has won with Mozzy and Tristan Thompson, I'm not concerned.

Overthinking.


Well yeah, not to mention we've gone something like 20 and 10 without Ingram Lonzo, and Hart at various times and not yet signing LBJ and PG13.

I'm just wondering, devil's advocate wise, if that lineup has an Achilles heel.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:53 pm    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
Judah wrote:
As I envision it, the system they run offensively would be egalitarian in nature. The parts would be interchangeable. Jordan nicknamed the triangle as an "equal opportunity offense," and while the Lakers aren't going to run the triangle, I'd imagine that their offense would be "equal opportunity" in nature as well. All of the players would have to sacrifice to some degree, so there's no way around that.

Assuming Randle returns and starts at C (neither of which is a guarantee, obviously), I can easily see a good number of their sets involving him at the top of the key to take advantage of the speed advantage he'd have over most starting C's. LeBron will probably be featured in the high post and as a pick and roll ball handler a lot of the time, George would likely be featured the same way KCP is, Ball would be a screen setter, cutter, and occasional catch and shoot guy, and Ingram a DHO guy and cutter.

This would be primarily a speed team and their transition principles would mostly be the same. Whoever grabs the rebound or retrieves the ball off of live ball turnovers would have the freedom to push and everyone else would just fill the spots. Randle and LeBron could both be rim-runners if they don't have the ball.

I don't think the fit would be quite as tricky to figure out as many have assumed.


Playing chess with yourself... how would you neutralize them defensively?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:56 pm    Post subject:

Simply put, LBJ eat first, PG13 eat 2nd and everybody else fall in line. We’ve done this before with Kobe and LBJ has done this with The Cavs. Winning cures everything, most of the times including egos
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