Elgin Baylor Legacy and Statue
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venturalakersfan
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:29 am    Post subject:

unleasHell wrote:
I wonder if any Laker fans under 30 give a damn about Elgin?

I'm pretty sure no here under 55 actually saw him play, so I just question the relevance...

And most just think of him as the Clippers GM for like 20 years...


Ignorance is no excuse
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:31 am    Post subject:

Elgin Baylor honored by Lakers with bronze statue at Staples Center

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23056355/elgin-baylor-honored-los-angeles-lakers-statue-staples-center


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:31 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
unleasHell wrote:
I wonder if any Laker fans under 30 give a damn about Elgin?

I'm pretty sure no here under 55 actually saw him play, so I just question the relevance...

And most just think of him as the Clippers GM for like 20 years...


Ignorance is no excuse
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:45 am    Post subject:

kobe_4_mvp wrote:
unleasHell wrote:
I wonder if any Laker fans under 30 give a damn about Elgin?

I'm pretty sure no here under 55 actually saw him play, so I just question the relevance...

And most just think of him as the Clippers GM for like 20 years...


i used to wonder if the lakers gave a damn about him. its not about age when you see youths in chamberlain and west jerseys but never baylor. i dont think they ever even released baylor throwbacks.



Elgin Baylor Jerseys
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/elgin-baylor-jersey
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unleasHell
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:32 am    Post subject:

Exactly, Elgin had a three year run (from 1960 - 1963) where he averaged 35.7ppg and 17.6rpg!

He was Jordan before there was a Jordan...!

How many people knew that?

No players have come anywhere close to that, in many decades!

Congrats to the Lakers finally doing the right thing...
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:28 pm    Post subject:

I don't know that I'd call him underrated, but it's a nice tribute. Is there anyone else in line for a statue? If memory serves, we have statues of Baylor, West, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, and Kobe (plus Chick). I don't think there has been a Jerry Buss statue.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:12 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I don't know that I'd call him underrated, but it's a nice tribute. Is there anyone else in line for a statue? If memory serves, we have statues of Baylor, West, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, and Kobe (plus Chick). I don't think there has been a Jerry Buss statue.


The Mamba doesn't have a statue (yet).
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:40 pm    Post subject:

This man should have never been a Clippers consultant. LA Laker for life...



What a man. What a speech.

Also, Shaq is the funniest athlete in the history of sport

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:22 pm    Post subject:

JerryWest_44 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I don't know that I'd call him underrated, but it's a nice tribute. Is there anyone else in line for a statue? If memory serves, we have statues of Baylor, West, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, and Kobe (plus Chick). I don't think there has been a Jerry Buss statue.


The Mamba doesn't have a statue (yet).


That's right. I remember that Jeanie said that he was going to get one, but it hasn't happened yet.
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:57 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
unleasHell wrote:
I wonder if any Laker fans under 30 give a damn about Elgin?

I'm pretty sure no here under 55 actually saw him play, so I just question the relevance...

And most just think of him as the Clippers GM for like 20 years...


Ignorance is no excuse



You're right that probably a lot of younger fans have no idea of who he is, and a lot of people who know his name know nothing else about him as a player.

And that's cool. Just because you enjoy watching the Lakers today doesn't mean you need to care about the guys who wore the jersey in the past.

That said, there's no harm in giving him a statue. It honors an all-time great, and if lots of people walk by the statue with apathy, that doesn't harm anyone either.
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lakersken80
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:52 pm    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
This man should have never been a Clippers consultant. LA Laker for life...



What a man. What a speech.

Also, Shaq is the funniest athlete in the history of sport



Since he was with the Clippers as a GM for so long, I bet a lot of younger Laker fans probably associate him more with the Clippers than the Lakers since they never saw him play. I bet if he was in charge of another team without the financial constraints he would've been a much more successful GM.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:02 pm    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
This man should have never been a Clippers consultant. LA Laker for life...



What a man. What a speech.

Also, Shaq is the funniest athlete in the history of sport



Since he was with the Clippers as a GM for so long, I bet a lot of younger Laker fans probably associate him more with the Clippers than the Lakers since they never saw him play. I bet if he was in charge of another team without the financial constraints he would've been a much more successful GM.


Sorry, should have clarified I meant Jerry West.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:31 pm    Post subject:

I really like Elgin's statue. It's funny, the guys who got their statues later than others might have felt a little disrespected, but it worked out well for them because the statues have gotten better looking.

I wonder if they'll consider statues for coaches.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:48 am    Post subject:

Bol wrote:
I really like Elgin's statue. It's funny, the guys who got their statues later than others might have felt a little disrespected, but it worked out well for them because the statues have gotten better looking.

I wonder if they'll consider statues for coaches.


Would love to see Phil get a statue one day!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:17 pm    Post subject:

I think you could argue that Baylor was the best Laker of all time. Took them to the NBA finals like 7 times. Did not have a 3 point line or would have been an even bigger scorer.

Magic is probably number 1, then maybe Kareem and Baylor in his prime is better than Kobe in his prime.

He may not be relevant now but he was far and away the best SF in Basketball for 10 years. Baylor, The Big O and Wilt. He played when Wilt put up the best seasons of any player ever. Baylors numbers were great as a scorer and rebounder.

It is a little sad that he does not get the recognition that he deserves because of when he played. I am bless to have watched him on TV when I was a kid.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:14 am    Post subject:

oldlakerfan wrote:
I think you could argue that Baylor was the best Laker of all time. Took them to the NBA finals like 7 times. Did not have a 3 point line or would have been an even bigger scorer.

Magic is probably number 1, then maybe Kareem and Baylor in his prime is better than Kobe in his prime.

He may not be relevant now but he was far and away the best SF in Basketball for 10 years. Baylor, The Big O and Wilt. He played when Wilt put up the best seasons of any player ever. Baylors numbers were great as a scorer and rebounder.

It is a little sad that he does not get the recognition that he deserves because of when he played. I am bless to have watched him on TV when I was a kid.


Elgin was great, but you have to keep his accomplishments in perspective. His enormous stats were due in part to his era, where the pace was very fast. Sure, the Lakers got to the finals a lot, but in those days the road to the finals was pretty easy. Sometimes all you had to do was win one playoff series. I believe there were a couple of times we got to the finals without even meeting a plus500 team in the playoffs

That's not to diminish Elgin or his place in basketball history. For me he's probably the 8th best Laker of all-time, behind Miken, Wilt, West, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, and Kobe. And that says left about Elgin, then about how many great players we've had
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:37 am    Post subject:

One of my favorite all-time Lakers...obviously.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:05 am    Post subject:

ElginBaylor wrote:
One of my favorite all-time Lakers...obviously.


You resemble that remark!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:30 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
oldlakerfan wrote:
I think you could argue that Baylor was the best Laker of all time. Took them to the NBA finals like 7 times. Did not have a 3 point line or would have been an even bigger scorer.

Magic is probably number 1, then maybe Kareem and Baylor in his prime is better than Kobe in his prime.

He may not be relevant now but he was far and away the best SF in Basketball for 10 years. Baylor, The Big O and Wilt. He played when Wilt put up the best seasons of any player ever. Baylors numbers were great as a scorer and rebounder.

It is a little sad that he does not get the recognition that he deserves because of when he played. I am bless to have watched him on TV when I was a kid.


Elgin was great, but you have to keep his accomplishments in perspective. His enormous stats were due in part to his era, where the pace was very fast. Sure, the Lakers got to the finals a lot, but in those days the road to the finals was pretty easy. Sometimes all you had to do was win one playoff series. I believe there were a couple of times we got to the finals without even meeting a plus500 team in the playoffs

That's not to diminish Elgin or his place in basketball history. For me he's probably the 8th best Laker of all-time, behind Miken, Wilt, West, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, and Kobe. And that says left about Elgin, then about how many great players we've had


Every player’s stats were due in part to their eras. Every player.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:32 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
activeverb wrote:
oldlakerfan wrote:
I think you could argue that Baylor was the best Laker of all time. Took them to the NBA finals like 7 times. Did not have a 3 point line or would have been an even bigger scorer.

Magic is probably number 1, then maybe Kareem and Baylor in his prime is better than Kobe in his prime.

He may not be relevant now but he was far and away the best SF in Basketball for 10 years. Baylor, The Big O and Wilt. He played when Wilt put up the best seasons of any player ever. Baylors numbers were great as a scorer and rebounder.

It is a little sad that he does not get the recognition that he deserves because of when he played. I am bless to have watched him on TV when I was a kid.


Elgin was great, but you have to keep his accomplishments in perspective. His enormous stats were due in part to his era, where the pace was very fast. Sure, the Lakers got to the finals a lot, but in those days the road to the finals was pretty easy. Sometimes all you had to do was win one playoff series. I believe there were a couple of times we got to the finals without even meeting a plus500 team in the playoffs

That's not to diminish Elgin or his place in basketball history. For me he's probably the 8th best Laker of all-time, behind Miken, Wilt, West, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, and Kobe. And that says left about Elgin, then about how many great players we've had


Every player’s stats were due in part to their eras. Every player.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:55 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
activeverb wrote:
oldlakerfan wrote:
I think you could argue that Baylor was the best Laker of all time. Took them to the NBA finals like 7 times. Did not have a 3 point line or would have been an even bigger scorer.

Magic is probably number 1, then maybe Kareem and Baylor in his prime is better than Kobe in his prime.

He may not be relevant now but he was far and away the best SF in Basketball for 10 years. Baylor, The Big O and Wilt. He played when Wilt put up the best seasons of any player ever. Baylors numbers were great as a scorer and rebounder.

It is a little sad that he does not get the recognition that he deserves because of when he played. I am bless to have watched him on TV when I was a kid.


Elgin was great, but you have to keep his accomplishments in perspective. His enormous stats were due in part to his era, where the pace was very fast. Sure, the Lakers got to the finals a lot, but in those days the road to the finals was pretty easy. Sometimes all you had to do was win one playoff series. I believe there were a couple of times we got to the finals without even meeting a plus500 team in the playoffs

That's not to diminish Elgin or his place in basketball history. For me he's probably the 8th best Laker of all-time, behind Miken, Wilt, West, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, and Kobe. And that says left about Elgin, then about how many great players we've had


Every player’s stats were due in part to their eras. Every player.



No duh. The point is that Baylor played in an era where the stats seem otherworldly compared to today.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:56 am    Post subject:

That is why you don’t compare those stats with today.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:52 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Every player’s stats were due in part to their eras. Every player.


Well, duh. This is why most people discount the numbers from the early '60s. All sorts of players put up numbers that look crazy today. We recognize that these numbers do not translate to the modern game, any more than Ol' Hoss Radbourn's 59-12 record from 1884 is a standard by which to judge Kershaw or Verlander.

Elgin Baylor was a high volume, low efficiency shooter. His shooting percentage was about league average for his career, and some years it was below league average. He just jacked up a lot of shots. He averaged 38 ppg one year, but he took 33 shots to get there. As far as I can tell, he only ever led the league in one category: missed shots (twice).

What set him apart was his rebounding, which was excellent for a forward (there really was no SF/PF distinction back then). Even then, his numbers are a little misleading. He averaged 19.8 rpg one year, but that was only fourth in the league (behind Chamberlain, Russell, and Pettit). He never finished higher than third.

Here's some bonus trivia about the 1961 season, when Elgin averaged 19.8 rebounds: 13 players averaged 10+ rebounds per game, but there were only 8 teams in the league. If you extrapolate that to the current 30 team league, you would need 48.75 players to average 10+ rebounds per game. As of right now, we have 10.

None of this is to suggest that he was a garbage player. He probably belongs in the second 25 of all time. Curiously, I think he benefits from the fact that almost no one actually remembers what he was like as a player. People see the highlight reels, where no one ever misses a shot, and they see the stat totals from those early years. That limited record becomes the reality.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:01 am    Post subject:

Before "LeBron" there was Elgin Baylor


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:38 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
That is why you don’t compare those stats with today.


But people do all the time. Which is why I made the point.

When people mention Baylor's scoring and rebounding averages, they rarely put those averages in the context of his time.

In this thread we had people compare Baylor's scoring averages in the early 60s to Jordan's in the mid-80s without a hint that they weren't comparable because of the differences in eras.
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