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Harlemlakerfan
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 Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:26 am Post subject: Young Core question? |
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When the season started, we had a ton of young players playing. We as fans, along with the Lakers front office were evaluating which of these young players will be apart of the " Young Core" going forward.
Ingram, Ball and Kuz were no brainers with Randle being a huge question mark. With his recent play, we can clearly see that Randle most definitely should be apart of the Young Core.
Nance and Clarkson were traded away, opening up more playing time to evaluate other young players.
Josh Hart, over the course of the season has also played himself into a role with the Young Core.
Thomas Bryant will get his chance next season to prove his worth.
The biggest, most mysterious player is Zubac. My question is, do you guys see Zubac being apart of the Young Core or are we ready to move in another direction with him? |
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Four Decade Bandwagon
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:51 am Post subject: |
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TBD. Too many variables still in play to be definitive IMO.
I do not think he is starting/ big mpg quality yet. But depending on how free agency goes the Lakers may be forced to depend on him to be one.
I think he plays hard and does some nice things, but still raw and inefficient. Not sure he can ever be the consistent defensive presence the Lakers need. Maybe another off-season of training helps him improve?
IMO the Lakers would replace him if they can afford to or if another team wants him as filler on a trade. Not a core player IMO. Hopefully he proves me wrong. |
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CRoost
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| I think Zu is outside looking in. He’s still young and showed some glimpse of what he can do but he need to work on strength and conditioning. It will be between him and Bryant and I thinking Bryant gets the nod because his game and his style fits better with the core. If Zu can get more playing time and show some promise then time to sell him to the highest bidder. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
The biggest, most mysterious player is Zubac. My question is, do you guys see Zubac being apart of the Young Core or are we ready to move in another direction with him? |
Both Zubac and Bryant are incredibly young. Just because they don't look like starter level centers doesn't mean they can't be quality rotation pieces.
It's a big advantage to have them on rookie-scale like contracts.
It would be so easy for San Antonio or Memphis to get either guy and make them incredibly legit.
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Lakesh0wtime
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:18 am Post subject: |
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Zu gotta get in the weight room.
I think he’s actually pretty skilled. But he’s soft as hell and can’t jump. |
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Four Decade Bandwagon
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:20 am Post subject: |
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It is all about expectations. I have a hard time seeing Zubac or Bryant ever being then a role player for more then 10-15mpg. At least not unless the show tremendous development over the next season or two.
Role on the team will be interesting. Will they sign a starting free agent center? Re-sign Lopez or Fry? Randle at center for 30 mpg? First round center that surpasses him immediately?
Just difficult to see Zubac playing 20+mpg and it not being a negative for the Lakers. As I said, would love for him to prove me wrong because like the young man. |
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RI Laker
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| We have Bryant and Zu locked in for peanuts so as of now, they are clearly part of the young core. I think Luke blew it by not giving Bryant minutes (he could have alternated between him and Zu). |
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hydrohead
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:25 am Post subject: |
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i have to admit, part of me gets excited only resigning Jules and going straight young core
2019 Laker's Dozen
ingram sf/pg
randle pf/c
kuzma sf/pf
wear sf/pf
zubac c
bryant c/pf
ball pg
hart sg/sf
2018 #1 pg/sg
2018 #2 pg/sg
caruso pg
summer league pick up
deng
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | It is all about expectations. I have a hard time seeing Zubac or Bryant ever being then a role player for more then 10-15mpg. At least not unless the show tremendous development over the next season or two.
Role on the team will be interesting. Will they sign a starting free agent center? Re-sign Lopez or Fry? Randle at center for 30 mpg? First round center that surpasses him immediately?
Just difficult to see Zubac playing 20+mpg and it not being a negative for the Lakers. As I said, would love for him to prove me wrong because like the young man. |
Both guys are considerably ahead of this guy in terms of age/development/skills:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dedmode01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lenal01.html
What I think a low to median outcome career looks like number-wise:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/speigma01.html
What it looks like number optimistically for Zubac:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/v/valanjo01.html
What kills me about the whole thing is, both guys are just some defensive intensity/fixable fundamentals away from getting 15-20mpg. Zubac is getting better, just not as fast as we'd like. Bryant already dominated the G-league like he was a 1st round pick. The rest needs to catch up.
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Four Decade Bandwagon
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | It is all about expectations. I have a hard time seeing Zubac or Bryant ever being then a role player for more then 10-15mpg. At least not unless the show tremendous development over the next season or two.
Role on the team will be interesting. Will they sign a starting free agent center? Re-sign Lopez or Fry? Randle at center for 30 mpg? First round center that surpasses him immediately?
Just difficult to see Zubac playing 20+mpg and it not being a negative for the Lakers. As I said, would love for him to prove me wrong because like the young man. |
Both guys are considerably ahead of this guy in terms of age/development/skills:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dedmode01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lenal01.html
What I think a low to median outcome career looks like number-wise:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/speigma01.html
What it looks like number optimistically for Zubac:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/v/valanjo01.html
What kills me about the whole thing is, both guys are just some defensive intensity/fixable fundamentals away from getting 15-20mpg. Zubac is getting better, just not as fast as we'd like. Bryant already dominated the G-league like he was a 1st round pick. The rest needs to catch up. |
Appreciate the comparisons and optimism. The point is how long will or can the Lakers allow them to "catch up" or develop? Next year will the Lakers be a competitive win now team or still a young developing roster with more moderate expectations? It matters IMO.
Both Zubac and Bryant would need tremendous leaps to play significant impactful mpg next year IMO. If one or both is capable of quality rotation play of 15-20mpg on a competitive team next year I would be thrilled.
Do you envision that type of jump for either next year? Or still a couple years away? |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:02 am Post subject: |
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^I'd argue, as long as they're willing to take rookie/minimum type contracts until a contract is legitimate for the skill improvement.
Big men are more difficult to judge in terms of leaps of development. The guys listed above all took awhile and were all roughly the same age.
I would only expect 1 to play rotation next year, but it's really up to Zubac. Jordan Clarkson, Brandon Ingram, and Julius Randle all made BIG steps from their rookie to 2nd years, and Zubac barely blipped.
But, when both guys make the G-League look easy and it's not just about the size, then it's just the defense that has to pick in. It's really up to them. I wish Bryant would bottle up that enthusiasm and save it on squats and rebounding fundamentals.
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | Appreciate the comparisons and optimism. The point is how long will or can the Lakers allow them to "catch up" or develop? Next year will the Lakers be a competitive win now team or still a young developing roster with more moderate expectations? It matters IMO. |
Why is this "the point"? In regards to Bryant, why would you spend a 2nd rd draft pick on a guy, give him no playing time during the yr, then one summer later, ponder whether you have time to wait for him to develop? That's just mismanagement of assets. Bryant was a project when drafted. If they had no time to wait for him to develop, they should have just sold the 2nd rd pick for cash to GS or just taken a European player and stash him overseas.
W/ regards to Zubac, he's pretty cheap. They'll let him go if they need the cap space or roster spot. Other than that, they'll keep him. It won't boil down to how much time they have to wait for him. There's not much downside to keeping him. They kept Sacre for forever. |
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Chronicle
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:08 am Post subject: |
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he's not part of the core but he is young
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Four Decade Bandwagon
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | Appreciate the comparisons and optimism. The point is how long will or can the Lakers allow them to "catch up" or develop? Next year will the Lakers be a competitive win now team or still a young developing roster with more moderate expectations? It matters IMO. |
Why is this "the point"? In regards to Bryant, why would you spend a 2nd rd draft pick on a guy, give him no playing time during the yr, then one summer later, ponder whether you have time to wait for him to develop? That's just mismanagement of assets. Bryant was a project when drafted. If they had no time to wait for him to develop, they should have just sold the 2nd rd pick for cash to GS or just taken a European player and stash him overseas.
W/ regards to Zubac, he's pretty cheap. They'll let him go if they need the cap space or roster spot. Other than that, they'll keep him. It won't boil down to how much time they have to wait for him. There's not much downside to keeping him. They kept Sacre for forever. |
Sacre was a " young core player"?
One of us is missing the point of the thread. I am thinking more of a contributor then an end of the bench player. "Young core player" to me means starter or significant playing time and impact when they are on the court.
Depending on the direction of the team and the success of the free agent plans this summer, just what are your expectations for either Bryant or Zubac?
Considering the Lakers will be striving to land 2 max and contend immediately, if they are successful I doubt both players are kept even if low salaries.
Second rounders are moved on from all the time. (Recently higher pick A. Brown as one example... mismanagement?). I agree that either are relatively inexpensive and likely kept for development. I prefer they are in fact. But I am more an advocate of the patient rebuild. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Sacre wasn't a young core player. He didn't have the upside. He actually did develop post moves while he was a Laker, but 3pt range, passing, touch on his shot were not in the arsenal.
2nd rounders are moved on, yes. Anthony Brown OTOH, was expected to be further along in development because he was age 23 entering the league. The success rate of players age 22 and older making it in the NBA when they enter the draft is incredibly low.
Zubac is what, 21?
Bryant is what, 20?
Plenty of time.
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Wildchild027
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Zubac only stays if they miss out on their 2 max guys. Bryant has a future with the team because they like his shooting. I'm assuming that Randle will stay, while they trade Deng with picks. |
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Four Decade Bandwagon
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | Sacre wasn't a young core player. He didn't have the upside. He actually did develop post moves while he was a Laker, but 3pt range, passing, touch on his shot were not in the arsenal.
2nd rounders are moved on, yes. Anthony Brown OTOH, was expected to be further along in development because he was age 23 entering the league. The success rate of players age 22 and older making it in the NBA when they enter the draft is incredibly low.
Zubac is what, 21?
Bryant is what, 20?
Plenty of time. |
No problem with giving them time to develop. Just have not seen enough to consider either a "core player" until they do.
Without significant improvement would you consider either a starter next season? Or as primary backup? What would be your confidence level in a Randle, Zubac and Bryant center rotation? Mine would be moderate to low.
Just out of curiosity. Would you consider any centers in the Lakers draft range (#20 and higher) as immediately better prospects then Zubac and/or Bryant? Capable of playing mpg over them from day one? |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | It is all about expectations. I have a hard time seeing Zubac or Bryant ever being then a role player for more then 10-15mpg. At least not unless the show tremendous development over the next season or two.
Role on the team will be interesting. Will they sign a starting free agent center? Re-sign Lopez or Fry? Randle at center for 30 mpg? First round center that surpasses him immediately?
Just difficult to see Zubac playing 20+mpg and it not being a negative for the Lakers. As I said, would love for him to prove me wrong because like the young man. |
Both guys are considerably ahead of this guy in terms of age/development/skills:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dedmode01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lenal01.html
What I think a low to median outcome career looks like number-wise:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/speigma01.html
What it looks like number optimistically for Zubac:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/v/valanjo01.html
What kills me about the whole thing is, both guys are just some defensive intensity/fixable fundamentals away from getting 15-20mpg. Zubac is getting better, just not as fast as we'd like. Bryant already dominated the G-league like he was a 1st round pick. The rest needs to catch up. |
Appreciate the comparisons and optimism. The point is how long will or can the Lakers allow them to "catch up" or develop? Next year will the Lakers be a competitive win now team or still a young developing roster with more moderate expectations? It matters IMO.
Both Zubac and Bryant would need tremendous leaps to play significant impactful mpg next year IMO. If one or both is capable of quality rotation play of 15-20mpg on a competitive team next year I would be thrilled.
Do you envision that type of jump for either next year? Or still a couple years away? |
How long? Until we need their roster spots. Add a Lebron and those spots likely become veteran minimum players.
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Dr. Funkbot
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | Sacre wasn't a young core player. He didn't have the upside. He actually did develop post moves while he was a Laker, but 3pt range, passing, touch on his shot were not in the arsenal.
2nd rounders are moved on, yes. Anthony Brown OTOH, was expected to be further along in development because he was age 23 entering the league. The success rate of players age 22 and older making it in the NBA when they enter the draft is incredibly low.
Zubac is what, 21?
Bryant is what, 20?
Plenty of time. |
No problem with giving them time to develop. Just have not seen enough to consider either a "core player" until they do.
Without significant improvement would you consider either a starter next season? Or as primary backup? What would be your confidence level in a Randle, Zubac and Bryant center rotation? Mine would be moderate to low.
Just out of curiosity. Would you consider any centers in the Lakers draft range (#20 and higher) as immediately better prospects then Zubac and/or Bryant? Capable of playing mpg over them from day one? |
I believe that Zu could be a primary back up at center.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Funkbot wrote: | | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | Sacre wasn't a young core player. He didn't have the upside. He actually did develop post moves while he was a Laker, but 3pt range, passing, touch on his shot were not in the arsenal.
2nd rounders are moved on, yes. Anthony Brown OTOH, was expected to be further along in development because he was age 23 entering the league. The success rate of players age 22 and older making it in the NBA when they enter the draft is incredibly low.
Zubac is what, 21?
Bryant is what, 20?
Plenty of time. |
No problem with giving them time to develop. Just have not seen enough to consider either a "core player" until they do.
Without significant improvement would you consider either a starter next season? Or as primary backup? What would be your confidence level in a Randle, Zubac and Bryant center rotation? Mine would be moderate to low.
Just out of curiosity. Would you consider any centers in the Lakers draft range (#20 and higher) as immediately better prospects then Zubac and/or Bryant? Capable of playing mpg over them from day one? |
I believe that Zu could be a primary back up at center. |
Does anyone remember Vlade during his first year or two in the L?
Isn't Zu ahead of that development curve?
That's how dramatically things can change.
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | Appreciate the comparisons and optimism. The point is how long will or can the Lakers allow them to "catch up" or develop? Next year will the Lakers be a competitive win now team or still a young developing roster with more moderate expectations? It matters IMO. |
Why is this "the point"? In regards to Bryant, why would you spend a 2nd rd draft pick on a guy, give him no playing time during the yr, then one summer later, ponder whether you have time to wait for him to develop? That's just mismanagement of assets. Bryant was a project when drafted. If they had no time to wait for him to develop, they should have just sold the 2nd rd pick for cash to GS or just taken a European player and stash him overseas.
W/ regards to Zubac, he's pretty cheap. They'll let him go if they need the cap space or roster spot. Other than that, they'll keep him. It won't boil down to how much time they have to wait for him. There's not much downside to keeping him. They kept Sacre for forever. |
Sacre was a " young core player"?
One of us is missing the point of the thread. I am thinking more of a contributor then an end of the bench player. "Young core player" to me means starter or significant playing time and impact when they are on the court.
Depending on the direction of the team and the success of the free agent plans this summer, just what are your expectations for either Bryant or Zubac?
Considering the Lakers will be striving to land 2 max and contend immediately, if they are successful I doubt both players are kept even if low salaries.
Second rounders are moved on from all the time. (Recently higher pick A. Brown as one example... mismanagement?). I agree that either are relatively inexpensive and likely kept for development. I prefer they are in fact. But I am more an advocate of the patient rebuild. |
To me there are 2 separate questions and they don't have to go together.
1) Is Zubac and Bryant a part of the young core
2) How long can we allow them to develop
You said "The point is how long will or can the Lakers allow them to "catch up" or develop?"
I don't understand why that would be the point.
For instance, I think the answer to question (1) is - I don't know yet. They were drafted as raw projects. They don't really get much playing time. It's still early.
As for question (2) - I think as long as we have the roster spot, keep them because they are cheap. And that's why I brought up Sacre.
Sacre is a good example because he wasn't a part of the young core but they kept him around forever.
So maybe I'm misunderstanding you then. Maybe you're saying identify all the young core and keep them around. Everyone else, let them go. |
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Four Decade Bandwagon
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | Appreciate the comparisons and optimism. The point is how long will or can the Lakers allow them to "catch up" or develop? Next year will the Lakers be a competitive win now team or still a young developing roster with more moderate expectations? It matters IMO. |
Why is this "the point"? In regards to Bryant, why would you spend a 2nd rd draft pick on a guy, give him no playing time during the yr, then one summer later, ponder whether you have time to wait for him to develop? That's just mismanagement of assets. Bryant was a project when drafted. If they had no time to wait for him to develop, they should have just sold the 2nd rd pick for cash to GS or just taken a European player and stash him overseas.
W/ regards to Zubac, he's pretty cheap. They'll let him go if they need the cap space or roster spot. Other than that, they'll keep him. It won't boil down to how much time they have to wait for him. There's not much downside to keeping him. They kept Sacre for forever. |
Sacre was a " young core player"?
One of us is missing the point of the thread. I am thinking more of a contributor then an end of the bench player. "Young core player" to me means starter or significant playing time and impact when they are on the court.
Depending on the direction of the team and the success of the free agent plans this summer, just what are your expectations for either Bryant or Zubac?
Considering the Lakers will be striving to land 2 max and contend immediately, if they are successful I doubt both players are kept even if low salaries.
Second rounders are moved on from all the time. (Recently higher pick A. Brown as one example... mismanagement?). I agree that either are relatively inexpensive and likely kept for development. I prefer they are in fact. But I am more an advocate of the patient rebuild. |
To me there are 2 separate questions and they don't have to go together.
1) Is Zubac and Bryant a part of the young core
2) How long can we allow them to develop
You said "The point is how long will or can the Lakers allow them to "catch up" or develop?"
I don't understand why that would be the point.
For instance, I think the answer to question (1) is - I don't know yet. They were drafted as raw projects. They don't really get much playing time. It's still early.
As for question (2) - I think as long as we have the roster spot, keep them because they are cheap. And that's why I brought up Sacre.
Sacre is a good example because he wasn't a part of the young core but they kept him around forever.
So maybe I'm misunderstanding you then. Maybe you're saying identify all the young core and keep them around. Everyone else, let them go. |
My initial response to the original question was "TBD".
Question was about the "young core" and if Zubac belonged as part of that group. Still has a chance to continue earning a roster spot but IMO he has a long way to go before being relied upon for significant mpg.
The responses have begun to drift away from the original question. My initial response is still my opinion. I do not see him as a core young player. Can he develop to the level as the comparisons provided by Mike? If he does maybe he becomes more of an integral part of the plan. Until he proves himself he may be replaced.
Still quite a few ways the off-season could go. But for instance, are Zubac and/or Bryant safe if they decide to draft a Center at #25? Or if they sign a FA center (Noel?) and still plan on Randle mpg at C?
What if the numbers game on the roster went in the direction of only being able to keep one of those two? Would either be safe or considered part of the young core? Not feeling the same angst I would feel towards the realistic "young core" of Ball, Ingram, Kuzma, Hart and Randle.
I'm still a bit pissed that Nance and Clarkson were dealt. But I'm willing to wait and see if the cap clearing was worth it. I do not want to be complaining about wasted "young core players" after free agency.
IMO Zubac and Bryant are in that category of "promising but not losing sleep over if an upgrade is found". Along with Ennis, Wear and Caruso. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: |
Does anyone remember Vlade during his first year or two in the L?
Isn't Zu ahead of that development curve? . |
Not even close. Divac made the all-rookie team, and in his second year he started 81 games and put up 11-8 in 28 minutes. (And in the finals against the Bulls, he put up 18-9).
Zu is playing very few minutes, and most of them are mop-up duty. In his second season, Zu has logged 371 minutes -- Divac logged 2,310.
By the end of his second season, Vlade looked like a potential all-star. By the end of his second season, it's not clear Zu can earn significant playing time. |
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tofulakers
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| We have Zu for one more season. If he doesn't show any progress by Dec/Jan, he'll be a salary dump. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: |
Does anyone remember Vlade during his first year or two in the L?
Isn't Zu ahead of that development curve? . |
Not even close. Divac made the all-rookie team, and in his second year he started 81 games and put up 11-8 in 28 minutes. (And in the finals against the Bulls, he put up 18-9).
Zu is playing very few minutes, and most of them are mop-up duty. In his second season, Zu has logged 371 minutes -- Divac logged 2,310.
By the end of his second season, Vlade looked like a potential all-star. By the end of his second season, it's not clear Zu can earn significant playing time. |
There's a big difference to me, in what an "average prospect" looked like in 1989 vs 2016. It's not about the minutes he plays but the amount of mistakes he was able to get away with while getting PT. No one else remembers him being foul prone? When Laker fans got on his case for shooting midrange Js because we didn't expect that out of centers? How soft he was finishing at the hoop?
If you want to extrapolate over per-36
Zubac was a 17/9/2 guy his rookie year
15/11/1 guy this year
And, not enough foul trouble or ridiculous turnovers to warrant him being off the court.
But that's how much the game has changed from back then until now.
Believe me, if you want to use per-36..
Zubac is closer to Vlade than you may think.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/divacvl01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/z/zubaciv01.html
Now factor in the age difference. This is a BIG reason why I'm optimistic about both Bryant and Zubac.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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